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Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Thanks for pointing me to this thread. I mentioned the 3 percenters in the other thread.

I think I was just frustrated at seeing content that I'm interested online, then later in a video the guy talking about guns is wearing a 3 percenter t-shirt. I'll happily never watch anything from that person again. I don't want the content removed, I'd rather know who these people are than not.

It's just a gross mark on pro gun people.

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Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Never mind.

20 years in construction and I disagree with most of what you've just said. It's way too obvious when people don't know about manual labor or the opportunities in trades.

Jihad Me At Hello fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 26, 2019

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:

I'm not really the type of person to jump down someone's throat or whatever, go ahead and disagree with me. I'm not going to say people don't look down on manual labor or trades or anything at all; they do. But in the context of illegal labor we're usually talking about terrible jobs in awful conditions, not, say, apprentice electricians.

I've worked poo poo jobs all my life. I come from a family with a lot of blue collar workers in it.

I think half my posts in the retail thread have been "so I stepped in human poo poo today"

There are illegal workers in trades. Just because you're picking one aspect doesn't mean it applies to the majority of illegal workers. There are lots of opportunities out there for people willing to learn a skill and show up. Painting it is an entire group of people stuck in horrible conditions isn't fair or true. You're being disrespectful to the workers that do well for themselves based off their work and merit. Whether they be illegal or otherwise.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Kanine posted:

the poo poo in this thread is why really the only other gun people i actually associate with are other leftists/anarchists. john brown gun clubs/socialist rifle association/pink pistols/etc. at least in the circles im part of, it seems like the notion that leftists/minorities need to start arming ourselves is becoming more and more accepted

That seems understandable. I truly appreciate tfr for being a non "gun nut" kind of place.

Spike's tactical stuff is pretty gross. I used to live in Florida and you'd see a lot of that kind of stuff. It makes sense to me though, at least from the few people I met from Apopka. They use it to intimidate and honestly I think it works. There are some hosed up folks down there. Florida is weird in so many ways.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

I thought the whole point of this thread was to call out the racists. I also thought doing so in a concise manner was to avoid misunderstandings.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

CainFortea posted:

That's what I thought, however it's difficult to do that when someone can say "Well was the person doing the racist thing a card carrying member, or just buy 4 bumper stickers and donate?" as if that matters.

I understand that. But maybe it's more like this sometimes... I have a chess club. We have 50 guys. 30 of the guys also go to a church. We don't talk about church on our chess forum. But at our dinners after church we talk about chess.

Chess is guns church is being racist turds. In this example.

Is it a religious chess club?

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

It's taken me a while to stop thinking that those not actively against hate groups are part of the problem. But that mindset, personally, created too many divisions in my life. Average people don't want any part of it and I can't really blame then any more. Most people just want to live their life and be left alone.
I don't think it's fair to require everyone to have an opinion on every group out there. I think if you're drawing a line like that, it's more for your own sake so you can label people in your mind.
I'm not a fan of antifa, I've interacted with them to their benefit in ways not many people do. So I've helped them but I don't think they're very intelligent in how they operate. I oppose any racist group. So am I a shitbag because I think antifa is generally dumb?

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Numlock posted:

I’ll note here I’m not a huge supporter of antifa. I think they are giving Nazi trash what they desperately crave (confrontation that reinforces their world view) and their energies would be better spent on get out the vote efforts. I think it would be more effective if the Nazis were just left to stand around an empty street where it was obvious nobody cared about them.

I agree. I believe this is what would ultimately happen.

I think when you look at what the actual numbers are of white supremacists in groups in America. At least for me, it made it seem less important to draw a line in the sand and go the whole you're either with me or against me route. There are way more juggalos than alt-righters and that makes me feel good.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

CainFortea posted:

There is a difference between people who go "Antifa and fascists are the same" and going "I don't know much about this so I dunno"

One is usually a dog whistle, the other is ignorance. Willful ignorance at this point I think, but still just ignorance.

You can think that all violence is bad and still understand that antifa and the fascists are very different. The fascists exist to gently caress over (violently usually) Anyone who's not like them. Antifa exist to stop the fascists.

Hell, even their violence is different. Antifa is in defense. If the cops would actually do their jobs, and if people took a more active role in getting this poo poo stamped out in the 20 years or so it's been building up then maybe people wouldn't feel the need to stop them their own way.


Also, gonna need some citations on the idea that ignoring the growing rise of nazism in america is going to be a successful method of stopping their growth. I'm fairly certain that "ignore those nazis" was a bad plan back in the 30s. Deplatforming works to silence specific assholes, but people will just get their bullshit through other means.

The amount of hate groups has roughly stayed the same for the past 10 years.
https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map?year=2010

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Party Plane Jones posted:

what? if you look at this it's nearly doubled in that time frame

Look at 2009 compared to 2018. Like I said, the past ten years have relatively stayed the same. I don't see a spike in the past few years that would suggest a huge rise.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

stealie72 posted:


That doesn't say anything about their membership and fellow travelers, though. Just the number of groups SPLC is tracking.

I don't have all the answers man. Pretty sure only the government has a rough idea what the amounts are. It's still a valid point and an important metric.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Kanine posted:

Speaking from family history, and my own lived experience as a queer jew, I'm going to say anyone who thinks Antifa should change/stop what they're doing, or that just voting is going to fix any of this is ignorant, naive, or obviously speaking in bad faith.

What makes antifa above criticism?

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

That Works posted:

They aren't but pretending that both sides of a violent altercation are of equal blame / villainy is a dog whistle in this case.

Seems odd to me that not agreeing with antifa makes someone racist.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Who is saying they're the same? All I'm hearing is if you disagree with racist groups AND antifa then you're a racist and that makes no sense to me.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

ulmont posted:

When the other side is "literal Nazis and white supremacist groups", pretending that both sides are of equal blame / villainy is in fact racist.

Antifa does play a role in it. I don't think they're the same thing but opposition of a bad thing doesn't turn that group into heroes.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

I've seen antifa dox someone over a Zelda tattoo and then redact it. So questioning their tactics should be talked about. Just cause the other side is bad doesn't mean that kind of behavior doesn't matter.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

CainFortea posted:

No one is saying anything they do is above reproach.

What people are saying (repeatedly which for some reason you seem to want to ignore) is that saying "Antifa are literally fascists and there is no difference between them an Proud Boys" is a dog whistle for support of fascism.

I didn't realize or didn't remember that one poster said they were the same same. So that was my mistake. There is a pretty strong feeling of if you're not one of us then you're one of them though. And that leaves a lot of people in the middle going fine, I'll ignore both sides.

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

CainFortea posted:

It's not just that one poster, it's a common theme elsewhere.

And there is something to be said for giving the alt-right tacit approval by arguing against people who are arguing against them means that you are against them.

Are you saying that if you argue with antifa then you approve of the alt right?

Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

CainFortea posted:

If you play the whataboutism game with antifa, you are supporting the alt-right.

This doesn't answer your question though.

That support might be because you are a racist. Or maybe you're just ignorant of each side's stances and things they've actually done. Or maybe you're naive and got suckered. Either way, that support exists. You can give criticisms of actions all you want, assuming that criticism is based on actual facts and such. But be aware that even valid criticism can be used by the alt-right for support of their actions by playing whataboutism cards. Personally I think that valid criticisms are more important than the support the alt-right gathers from people doing that.

But again, that isn't what is happening out in the wild internet land.

And, very importantly to this particular thread, it isn't what's happening right now.

Right now, we have a series of people who have changed a thread that is supposed to be about outing and telegraphing racism and authoritarianism in the firearms industry and made it about how "is antifa really anti fascists or just fascists themselves with different stickers?"

This is EXACTLY the method the alt-right use to obfuscate the issue as outlined 3 pages back

Post by post you can watch the whole thing devolve into making this a thread where we aren't identifying racism and alt-right poo poo in the firearm industry and is now about trying to make sure any such posts get lost in the noise. This is how the alt-right use the inaction of centrists to get away with inciting violence.

It's especially galling here, because this was literally pointed out earlier and yet people will still claim that it doesn't happen that way.

Ok but you didn't answer my question.

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Jihad Me At Hello
Apr 23, 2002

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

Then ban me, I'm not baiting anyone. Trying to have a discussion.

Or tell me what I'm doing wrong because I don't get it.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

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