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Vote to threadban Bioshuffle
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Yes (Goku) 146 85.38%
No (also Goku) 25 14.62%
Total: 171 votes
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Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

IMHO, Stormfront being racist is not as cut and dry as people want to believe. Upon a rewatch and a frame by frame, it's pretty clear to me the reason she kills the family is because the father stands in her way. Once he dies, she obviously has to kill the witnesses. I'm not saying what she did was right by any stretch of the definition. There's no denying she is evil and reckless, but I didn't get any racist vibes from her. Let's not forget that the person who invited her into the Seven and is her boss is a POC. Why would a racist agree to work for a POC? It obviously doesn't add up. Not to mention she's working alongside two POC and she has had no negative interactions with them at all. Also, let's not overlook the fact about the ethnicity of the actress portraying her. Even though it's 2020, there's no way any casting director who cares about their job would cast a Jewish person to portray a Nazi. Obviously you're welcome to speculate, but I'm not seeing the racist narrative. At all.

She's by far my favorite superhero we've seen in the series, especially as she's seemingly the only one who isn't afraid of Homelander. Can't wait to see where the character goes.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

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Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Wild T posted:

She passes another black man on the stairwell immediately afterward, then stops pursuing her target, turns around and walks back down to murder him. Not getting in her way does not protect you if you're a minority near her and the cameras aren't rolling.

"I'm not racist because my boss is black" just doesn't scan. She wants power, and the Seven has it.

She killed him because he was a witness. That was my interpretation anyway. If she wants the power, she obviously doesn't seem very interested because she spends most of her screen time making GBS threads on the Seven.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Wild T posted:

That dude wasn't even present for the initial murders. He was outside on the stairwell coming up from another floor and froze when he saw the chase.

It's pretty blatant she enjoys being a murderous monster, especially when she can get away with it. We'll know for sure in the coming episodes, but I am witholding my judgement for now. Either way, I'm not saying what she did wasn't horrendous or wrong.

Let's not forget that during WWII, there were tons of anti-Japanese propaganda that was straight up racist.

Edit: what's the spoiler policy in this thread? Cause I'm seeing people post straight up spoilers without any tags.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

It's pretty clear most of you are not open to the idea that there are multiple ways to interpret and analyze shows, but I know I'm not alone in how I feel, and I'll leave it at that.

I was surprised to see the second season rated so lowly on Amazon, but it looks like most of the one star ratings are from people who are angry they didn't release all the episodes at the same time.

I wonder if they're trying to stagger it out due to the slowed production schedule.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

thrawn527 posted:

Yeah, assuming you're not just a parody, I really want to know how you square the whole, "She's not necessarily a racist" thing with the racist slur she lets out at the end when she kills Kenji (Kimiko's brother). You seem to be purposefully not mentioning it so far, and you have to understand why no one is going to take you seriously while that's true.
Since you asked.

The show is laden with all types of profanity. Butcher drops the c word like it's going out of style, but it doesn't mean he's misogynist. He clearly cares about his wife. I think for the first time, we're seeing a superhero equivalent for Butcher. A superhero who is vulgar and bullheaded and isn't afraid to say things to get under people's skin.

We also have to distinguish between the fact that she clearly views him as a terrorist. It's not as if she just found a random asian person on the street corner, this is someone who she holds a great deal of disdain for. Once again, see what I referenced about the WWII propaganda against Japanese people. It really fits the show's theme to the T. Recall that Homelander prefered to use America instead of world. Also note that a lot of times, military personnel are trained to view the adversary as inhuman.

We spend so much time seeing Kimiko's brother causing all kinds of problems for Butcher's crew, and it was interesting to see how she doesn't view him as any kind of threat. She doesn't view him as a worthy adversary, she views him as an inconvenience. This makes her a great villain in my book.

Obviously the term she uses is extremely racist, but I think she really enjoys tormenting and playing around with people (look at how she talks to Starlight for example, or even her first introduction where she openly mocks Homelander). She doesn't say those things because she's a racist, she says it to be as insulting as possible before killing someone. Then again, I've read the comic book series, so that may be influencing how I view the characters.

I agree that she is an awful person, but in so far as the whole racism goes, I'm going to withhold my judgement until we see some more episodes. I'm really confused by all the open hostility. Any form of art is open to interpretation. I don't see the point in attacking someone just because they view things differently. To each their own I guess.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

I guess the red text is accurate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem :rolleye:

Back on topic, I hate how much screen time they're wasting on the deep. I was hoping Butcher would put an end to him, but I guess he was protected by plot armor. Isn't he extremely vulnerable outside his ability to swim fast and communicate with animals? Or is the reason he was spared due to him not wanting to cause even more issues with the people he was looking to get help from?

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

unlimited shrimp posted:

Not really. It's not like she was shown to be making oblique references to right wing talking points, or trying to rationalize her bigotry. If you weren't primed by her name or comics knowledge then the apartment incident was a real heel turn.
Not sure why people are suddenly claiming she is the second coming of Hitler. Not everything has to be motivated by some political agenda. Sometimes, characters are evil just for the sake of being evil. :shrug: When politics gets forcefully infused into a show just for the sake of being relevant and appealing to the woke crowd, terrible things happen. Need I remind you of the poo poo storm that was the Watchmen TV series?

It's really interesting to see people get so upset when others don't share their viewpoint. I can't imagine what the Sopranos thread must have been like during the series finale.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Judging by all the derailing posts and personal insults, it appears to me like you guys are turning into the very thing you're accusing me of.

All I want to do is discuss the show. I don't think she's racist. I'm allowed to have opinions. If you disagree, that's great. There's really no need for this level of hostility.

Seriously.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Gaius Marius posted:

Am I the only one who thought the black noir kimiko and the fight from last episode were terribly done. There's some cool stuff in last episodes with the effects and destruction but anytime it comes close to hand to hand range it's a dozen quick cuts that look horrible.

Showrunners need to hire the guys who did the starz spartacus so we can finally get good fights on tv again.
I actually saw a neat little video about how Jackie Chan used to film his action sequences. They even contrasted it with the modern style of hard fast cuts and why it's inferior. It's worth a view if you're interested in that kind of thing. Skip to about 5:20 for the relevant stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ

Even if they're poorly done, I can't complain any time black noir gets screen time.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

As Nero Danced posted:

Oh man, that's such a high bar to meet I'm not sure what else would come close.

Cobra Kai had some great fight scenes, if you can get past the cliche 80s tone overlaying all the action sequences.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

sliami posted:

i'm also gauging their savviness based on the absolute lameness of most of this show's memes. like I get that tv is a year behind IRL but they're just. so lame
Have you looked at Reddit lately? How about GBS? They're absolutely spot on with the memes. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the creators of the memes logged on here afterwards to try and police what can and can't pass as memes.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

PostNouveau posted:

Really funny that the woman The Deep liked best in their creepy casting call just made a completely emotionally flat sexual pass at him.
That combined with the look on his face after Homelander makes the comment about the gills has me convinced he hasn't changed at all. It'll be really entertaining to watch his downfall. Or redemption. I'd be fine with either one, but I'm not buying the fact that he's completely changed because he joined a cult and had a drinking problem.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

thrawn527 posted:

Yeah, I already felt this way about halfway into season 1. His plot largely feels like it's going nowhere. I assume this cult thing will eventually become important, though.

It wouldn't surprise me if he ends up playing a pivotal role in bringing down Stormfront. Especially if you consider that electricity and water don't play nicely together.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

There are times when I find myself sympathizing with Homelander, especially as we get more and more insight into why he is the way he is. Poor guy never had a chance. Having said that, I love watching him squirm and throwing tantrums as Stormfront puts him in his place. When you get past the big tough exterior, he's basically just a big baby.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Funny you mention that, because this avatar was bought for me by a Trump supporter who didn't like that I was a Sanders supporter. I'd change it, but I don't want to give money to SA right now, for obvious reasons. Also, he is really has a tragic backstory. I'm sure I was definitely not the only person who felt sympathy when he's trying to connect with his family the only way he knows (by brute force and being an rear end in a top hat). Not that it excuses his actions, but he is definitely a tragic figure.

BurritoJustice posted:

I hope we get a return of the confident, manipulative, quick thinking Hughie from S1. He's much more milquetoast this season
I actually really liked his downfall arc. You can see how every little event keeps building and building until he finally collapses. As Butcher points out, he's just a civilian after all. I kept expecting something big to happen from him leaving all those messages full of incriminating evidence, but I guess I was wrong.

Bioshuffle fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Sep 11, 2020

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Romes128 posted:

Imagine defending Stormfront, then sympathizing with Homelander, a rapist and murderer.

I never defended Stormfront? She literally a massive piece of manipulative murdering piece of poo poo. All I'm saying is Homelander is definitely a victim of his circumstance though. Anyone in his shoes would grow up to be a complete psycho. One of the great things about this shows is how some of the characters live in a morally ambiguous zone.

Even Butcher's own wife leaves him because she recognizes he is a complete raging psycho who would kill someone at the drop of a hat. They literally have an entire conversation about this. The whole show is about flipping subversions and expectations for character archetypes.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Democratic Pirate posted:

I could see Homelander pushing Vought employees to dox someone’s account, finding out the person lives alone in NYC and doesn’t have any relationships outside of the internet, and giving them a laser show at 2am one night
Don't forget that earlier in the episode, we see Black Noir do literally this.

Wasn't there a kid in Mexico who posted a bunch of demeaning memes about a cartel member got murdered afterwards?

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Bust Rodd posted:

I’m not sure when exactly this happened, I think maybe season 1 of Westworld, where “sometimes subverting your audiences expectations is a good thing that can mix up a boring or common story” suddenly became “you must subvert every single expectation your audience might have no matter what!” which is just stupid on its face.

This is one of the things I enjoy the most about the show though. I love the fact that anyone can die at anytime. I don't feel like it's been abused at all, at least from what we've seen so far.

I think she would have killed all those people in the building regardless of their ethnicity. Even if they were white. You're welcome to disagree. It's a moot point.

I literally said she was an awful person in one of the things you quoted me in. I'm not saying Stormfront is a hero. She is clearly a villain. If you don't understand that, that's really on you at this point.

Bioshuffle fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Sep 11, 2020

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

davidspackage posted:

It's weird but I kinda feel like this show is kind of naive about its racism in today's world. Like, I don't buy anymore that a Super in the 50s would need damage control over beating an innocent black man to death over a trumped up crime. Hell, I could see Stormfront flat out stating the people in the apartment building were 'caught in the crossfire' or 'tried to help the terrorist' and she had to do what she did. But I guess it's nice if the show doesn't get too dark and real.

It's doubly creepy when you consider that the are basically super celebrities who can get away with anything. Think about how many people worship David Bowie and overlook the fact that he was a drug addicted Nazi worshiping pedophile who slept with 13 year olds, for example.

Speaking of Tuco, it feels like Giancarlo is basically playing the same character from Breaking Bad, and I love it.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Zaphod42 posted:

Jesus christ do we really have to make every TVIV thread about goons sarcastically communicating back and forth with nothing but disdain?

Nobody is saying its impossible for her to be a young Liberty. We just said "hey maybe it could be these other things too".
It could very easily go either way. But nobody is saying V totally 100% couldn't possibly do that.

Jesus christ.
From what I've seen, it's only a select few really vocal sperglords who will actively get angry and literally call you Hitler if you disagree with their interpretation.

Thankfully most people are here to discuss the show and not join some weird circle jerk about how dumb everyone else is because they don't get the show like they do.

Just the very possibility of the show throwing out a red herring seems to be a huge trigger for them.

The jury is definitely still out on the liberty/stormfront connection and there are a myriad of possibilities.

The only way we'll know for sure is to keep watching the episodes.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

veni veni veni posted:

Is the jury really still out on that one though? Like, it seemed pretty cut and dry.
It's up for debate. I can see the show pulling a last minute switcheroo and revealing that she is actually a clone, or the daughter.

The show is known for subverting expectations. You're welcome to believe she is the same person, but there's no need to poo poo on people who disagree.

My money is on her being Liberty's daughter.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the goons in this thread start claiming Homelander and Doppleganger are the same character because they're portrayed by the same actor. Why even bother watching the show if they already have all the puzzle pieces figured out? It's baffling. To say the least.

There is absolutely no evidence in the show that they are the same, outside one sentence which could be interpreted a million different ways, and an accusation from someone who had one encounter, in the dark literally decades before the present. Don't forget that during the incident where Liberty kills the brother, she is wearing a hoodie, in the dark, and the girl is inside the car. That's outside the fact that witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. I'm going to bookmark this page so I can see how they backpedal when it turns out the whole thing was a red herring.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Baudolino posted:

Yeah i would be seriously suprised if she is not Liberty, even if that would be my personal preference.
Ultimately these are just superficial details.

Part of me thinks it would be just as interesting if they were the one and the same. It'd be cool to see how she's had to change and adapt to survive cancel culture. Especially since there's been no overt hints that racism was any part of Vought's agenda. If they are one and the same, does Edgar know the truth?

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

As Nero Danced posted:

"I don't believe a character is ___ even though the character, actors, writers, producers, showrunner, and the source material all say said they are ___"?

Viewers should and do have the right to disagree with the show runners. That's the beauty of art. Once you release it into the world you no longer have the final say in how people interpret it.

“All worthy work is open to interpretations the author did not intend. Art isn't your pet -- it's your kid. It grows up and talks back to you." -Joss Whedon

If what I predicted doesn't turn out, the thing I'm guilty of is guessing wrong. It's not like we're in some contest where we have to guess everything correctly. Speculating about potential outcomes is half the fun.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Sockser posted:

Aya Cash is the best and I'm super happy to see her getting more high-profile work and everyone should watch You're the Worst that's all

I've been impressed by all of the cast, really (with the exception of Giancarlo who is playing the same character from Breaking Bad essentially). I didn't realize Homelander was in Banshee. I couldn't get past the god awful camera work, but it may be worth another visit.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

eSporks posted:

I'll toxx if you toxx.
Toxx qua toxx.
Nah.

Did you read a word of what I typed? I literally said there's a possibility they are a same person, just like there's a possibility they are not.

Watched the episode again and I found it interesting how Liberty doesn't use any electricity when killing the brother. Also noted that her face is kept concealed the whole time by her hoodie.

I'd be very disappointed if they turn out to be the same person, as that would mean all the clues were planted just to mess with people who enjoy dissecting little clues.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

unlimited shrimp posted:

I want to see more of the B team. We got many more non-Seven supes last season.
To be fair, we're only four episodes in, and we have already seen a few different supes.

It's not the first time goons have tried to pitchfork against anyone not sharing their ideas. Let's not forget the breaking bad thread where everyone who thought Walter White poisoned the kid was accused of being trolls and mocked and bullied mercilessly.

Only to find out they had been right all along. I guess it's a TV IV tradition of sorts to try and muffle out anyone not sharing their theories. It happened in breaking bad thread, it happened in GoT thread, and you see it happening here.

Either way, I think we can all agree Friday can't get here fast enough. I love love love that they added someone who can actually be a viable threat to Homelander.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

I'm kinda baffled at the show runner straight up spoiling a major plot device, but it sounds like Stormfront will basically turn out to be Liberty. It's not the end of the world. It's not like I'm the first person in the thread to have made a wrong guess.

She's still a great villain, and I'm looking forward to finding out how much she's changed from her Liberty days. I also want to know if Edgar is aware of her back story.

If you think about it, there are tons of people in their 70s and 80s who used to be racist during the Civil Rights movement who have realized the error of their ways since then, so it makes total sense. A redemption arc seems unlikely for this show though.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Victis posted:

There's no redemption arc
Have we seen her say anything remotely racist to her fan base though? It seemed to me like she pretends to be goody two shoes and puts on a public persona when necessary while putting on a whole different shoe for her intimate fanbase.

If you keep up with American politics at all, her behavior reminds me of current politics. We have politicians who used to sponsor ultra racist programs back in the 90s that were responsible for mass incarceration of POC, and everyone is trying to pretend none of it ever happened.

This is a good loving show.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Bip Roberts posted:

I'm happy that I can watch one episode and read this thread while it's semi on topic for the episode instead of taking a week and a half to finish the season and by that time the thread is full demented.
Even with the staggered schedule look at all the better than thou sperglords harvesting spoilers from the show runners and posting it here.

Goons are incapable of enjoying something unless they suck all the life out of it.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Slashrat posted:

Just to correct a misconception, Pippi Longstocking is swedish, as is her author, Astrid Lindgren. It doesn't diminish the connection that can be made, but Stormfront probably wasn't being quite this literal.

e: beaten
I think if anything, this thread has shown that sperglord goons love calling everything and everyone Nazis. Even if they have no remote idea of what they're talking about.

Butcher's ex wife? Nazi.
Hugie's girlfriend? Dead Nazi.
Lucy? Nazi whale.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

alexandriao posted:

My dad mentioned while watching, that one part of the Hero's Journey is literally called "In the belly of the whale", lmao
Holy poo poo good catch about the belly of the whale :laffo:

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Here's the thing alexandriao pointed out.



There's no way they didn't do this deliberately. Absolutely brilliant.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

HppyCmpr posted:

I mean no one did that. You're just upset you got called out for being obtuse and digging your heels in about something the show slapped you in the face with.

It's odd you can appreciate the Belly of the Wale reference but struggled to grasp the obvious message that Liberty and Stormfront are the same person.

:keke:
I'm not Houdini. I don't mind making wrong guesses from time to time. In addition, I'm not the only person in this thread to have guessed that Liberty was not Stormfront. I'm still having a blast reading all the different speculations.

And for what it's worth, I never dug in my heels about anything. I already admitted I was wrong about Liberty's identity. I would have preferred to do it without reading spoilers, but whatever. It won't deter my enjoyment of the show nevertheless. Also, for what it's worth, I don't get upset over a bunch of words posted on the internet. If my speculations upset you, just add me to your ignore list and move on. I'm here to talk about the TV show. That's all.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

That Italian Guy posted:

I wasn't sure if I remembered that point correctly, as I guess it stresses a bit the suspension of disbelief for a massive conspiracy that involves grieving families with even the CIA/The Boys being baffled by the reveal Compound V exists. Starlight's mom knew she was giving her daughter some kind of substance provided by Vought after all. A few families keeping it secret for their own benefit works better than "for every one we manage to made, we killed N tens/hundreds".

E: in fact, for a moment I thought they were going to reveal that MM had a sibling die from Compound V (with his father suing Vought for it, instead of the what happens in the comics), but again it would not make sense with the way everyone was caught off guard by the mere existence of V.

Now that Compound V is out in public, I wonder how long it'll be until other countries can synthesize a version themselves. If one supe can blackmail an employee into stealing the thing, what's the stop others from getting it? I can see China or Russian using spies to steal the formula. It'd make a great plot for Season 3.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

moist turtleneck posted:

I'm still thinking about the idea someone in here had about Butcher having a silver tongue super power

No one should have agreed to anything he has said in season 1 on my rewatch

It's just plot armor. Let's not forget about how both Homelander and Stormfront conveniently ignoring Kimiko after Stomfront kills her terrorist brother. I mean, she's RIGHT THERE. This show's weak writing will crumble into pieces if you examine it too closely. It's best enjoyed from a distance.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

ZearothK posted:

Jeez, guys, can you help me out, is Stormfront some kind of racist? Just wondering because she's named after a Nazi website, her comic version was Nazi Captain Marvel, she uses Nazis aesthetics, she was calling people racial slurs while killing them, her or her mother was gratuituously killing black folks in the 70's, she uses alt-right language and approaches and her actress was calling the character a terrible racist. I just can't be sure of it.

Seeing as she's Liberty, she is racist. This has already been established. You should read the thread maybe? Missed the stuff where the actress calls the character racist. Where was this?

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

Bust Rodd posted:

While I was completely subsumed with dread during the entire episode, I never thought for a second Butcher would harm a hair on her head, and if I'm being honest, Becca being an extremely intelligent person, handling her emotions realistically, and still siding with her son over her ex-husband, even given the circumstances, makes her, like, the most fully realized strong female character in the show about women with super strength who can fly and shoot laser beams. Becca rules

I feel like she is literally the most powerless push over character in the show, and that includes Hughie. If she was strong, she would not have turned herself into a literal prisoner, acquiescing to their every little demand. If she was really an empowered female, a quick visit to the abortion clinic would have resolved almost all of her issues from the get go. We'll have to wait to see if the show addresses this issue, but seeing as how they've tackled racism, it wouldn't surprise me if this pops up at some point or another.

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

If you can legitimately explain which rules I'm breaking, I'll gladly stop posting. So far, the only thing I'm guilty of is making a few wrong guesses.

https://www.somethingawful.com/forum-rules/forum-rules/

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Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished

BrotherJayne posted:

I expected it to be the kid, tbh

I'm very interested to see what they'll do with the kid. I'm confused by Becca's plan for the kid. She is raising him FOR Vought, what does she expect? None of this makes any sense at all, and frankly it's the worst written part of the show, by far.

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