|
The amount of times I was asked "Why didn't you just kill them?" during my first tour was disturbing, even for the Infantry. I remember being harassed by various NCOs for going hands on with a dude. "I didn't kill him because I didn't need to. We can't just kill people for being stupid assholes." Apparently, I was wrong.
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 16:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 07:55 |
|
|
quote:Best research chemical for CSGO? (self.researchchemicals) drat i love reddit
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 17:45
|
|
|
CMYK BLYAT! posted:drat i love reddit poo poo like that almost makes me miss active duty. I wonder if anyone did TCC JOOSE or whatever the gently caress it was and woke up enlisted... or worse, comissioned.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 17:49
|
|
|
LingcodKilla posted:Had a management member ask me why I felt it necessary to pull my gun on an attacker with a knife back at my old job. In her defense, you were an instructor at an after school program focused on cullinary training for middle schoolers with single working parents.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 20:20
|
|
|
I’m thinking back to generation kill and how disturbed most of the Recon Marines were when that one dude iced a woman who was in the wrong place wrong time versus the total non-reaction the killer cops of Eric Garner and George Floyd had while they were obviously dead and waiting for paramedics. A bunch of early 20’s hyper machismo’ed SOF marines in an actual war foreign zone have more compassion and humanity than a cop.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 22:47
|
|
|
SpaceSDoorGunner posted:I’m thinking back to generation kill and how disturbed most of the Recon Marines were when that one dude iced a woman who was in the wrong place wrong time versus the total non-reaction the killer cops of Eric Garner and George Floyd had while they were obviously dead and waiting for paramedics. You're going to have to be more specific. They iced like 5 civilians accidentally.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 22:50
|
|
|
A Bad Poster posted:You're going to have to be more specific. They iced like 5 civilians accidentally. Airport I’m not saying they’re good (they’re really, really bad) but like holy poo poo compare that to most accounts of cops after Officer involved shootings and just how loving blasé police culture is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 22:56
|
|
|
SpaceSDoorGunner posted:Airport Richard Pryor has a pretty good bit on exactly that blase poo poo (lol "pretty good" it's Richard loving Pryor) from back in the 70s. And choke holds. Like gently caress the dude was joking about them choking black men to death forty years ago. This isn't the whole thing but it's the punchline that applies to this thread. edit : First minute or so is the bit on choke holds and police just going "whoops" edit 2: iirc the part immediately before this has him making a joke about having a magnum pistol to kill cars for some Richard Pryor reason. Annoying kids tuning poo poo in their driveway? Street racers? Dunno. Anyways dude has a car killer magnum and then the cops get called and he peaces out for reasons that he elaborates on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWulvchFpYs
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 22:59
|
|
|
SpaceSDoorGunner posted:I’m thinking back to generation kill and how disturbed most of the Recon Marines were when that one dude iced a woman who was in the wrong place wrong time versus the total non-reaction the killer cops of Eric Garner and George Floyd had while they were obviously dead and waiting for paramedics. Probably because the cops knew they would, in all likelihood, face exactly zero repercussions for their actions*, while the Marines faced a real possibility of seeing repercussions for theirs. * Unfortunately for the piece of poo poo who murdered Floyd, he was wrong, but that's an exception, not the rule.The other piece of poo poo who murdered Garner was totally right, aside from whooptee-fuckin-doo having to go be a cop anywhere else besides the NYPD, and even that came more than half a loving decade after he murdered Garner. (Edit: and he's currently suing to get his job back.) Jesus Christ it's been just shy of six years since Floyd was murdered and absolutely nothing has changed. gently caress this country. Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jul 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 23:12
|
|
|
Dammit, now you've got me thinking about Trombley. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 23:17
|
|
|
I still feel bad because I had to use violence to arrest detainees, but cops chill people like it's loving Hagen Daaz, and that's A-Ok with them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 23:29
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Richard Pryor has a pretty good bit on exactly that blase poo poo (lol "pretty good" it's Richard loving Pryor) from back in the 70s. And choke holds. Like gently caress the dude was joking about them choking black men to death forty years ago. The reason is he was drunk as gently caress and the wife said she was leaving him, and taking the car. That idea was annoying to him, therefore the car needed to die, and if you are gonna kill a car, you need a big gun. Stupid_Sexy_Flander fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jul 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 00:16
|
|
|
Steezo posted:poo poo like that almost makes me miss active duty. I wonder if anyone did TCC JOOSE or whatever the gently caress it was and woke up enlisted... or worse, comissioned. The
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 03:49
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Richard Pryor has a pretty good bit on exactly that blase poo poo (lol "pretty good" it's Richard loving Pryor) from back in the 70s. And choke holds. Like gently caress the dude was joking about them choking black men to death forty years ago. He also has a relevant bit about the need for prisons (and, by extension, the police). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7DhFhzkjcA
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 04:13
|
|
|
BIG HEADLINE posted:Dammit, now you've got me thinking about Trombley. TROMBLEY?!? I loved the two different viewpoints on the airport shooting in GK (It was a Bedouin kid) 1) The full Recon Marines are pissed at Trombley for firing before identifying his target correctly, even though they were in a free fire zone with no restrictions. 2) Evan Wright is stunned at the accuracy of Trombley's shooting; center of mass hits on a small moving target from a moving vehicle with a LMG (He was using a 249)
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 13:14
|
|
|
Reading the generation kill book and then book by the then LT of the unit was really interesting and i would recommend it for anyone just to see the change in importance different people place on the same events
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 13:21
|
|
|
"One Bullet Away: The Making of a Marine Officer" by Nathaniel C. Fick. Is the other one, he's definitely more political about the other officers in the unit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 14:15
|
|
|
bulletsponge13 posted:I still feel bad because I had to use violence to arrest detainees, but cops chill people like it's loving Hagen Daaz, and that's A-Ok with them. I had to guard a Taliban EPW at the Role 3 in KAF for 12 hours. Dude had a shattered femur, a blown off testicle, and one eye. I had to sit there and 'guard' him, as if he's going anywhere in that shape. But it was made abundantly clear that EPWs were not to be hosed with and we'd get destroyed if anyone so much as yelled a nasty word at the dude who was trying to actually kill our guys. Meanwhile Baltimore cops can throw a dude in a wagon and deliberately pingpong him off the walls and be like "oops he died, he probably did it to himself on purpose lol" and then wonder why half the loving city burns down.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 14:30
|
|
|
Wild T posted:I had to guard a Taliban EPW at the Role 3 in KAF for 12 hours. Dude had a shattered femur, a blown off testicle, and one eye. I had to sit there and 'guard' him, as if he's going anywhere in that shape. But it was made abundantly clear that EPWs were not to be hosed with and we'd get destroyed if anyone so much as yelled a nasty word at the dude who was trying to actually kill our guys. I'm pretty sure we did a better job policing Baghdad during the invasion than Baltimore police do. It was a weird experience but the locals were by and large willing to work with us till it got pissed away by Paul Bremer and those idiot MP's abusing prisoners. Still incredibly loving angry about that. And conflicted. Weird emotions that they give me poo poo for but that only makes it a different kind of weird. Still exhausted most of the time. Bunch of young kill crazy Marines and we treated people we were at war with better than American police do their fellow civilians. To think I used to be mad about the patriot act...
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 14:43
|
|
|
So question for you all about that: one of the really common criticisms you see of policing in the US is that it’s over militarized, with a combo of the DoD’s leftover equipment, preferential hiring for vets, and militarized training being the commonly cited culprits. So how in the blue (pun intended) gently caress do you have the Army that concerned with prisoner welfare and the Baltimore PD . . . Not. Like we all know there have been some hosed scandals involving soldiers in combat zones (*cough*SEALS*cough*) but from what you all are saying it sounds like if I wasn’t a middle aged white guy id be better off surrendering to the USMC than any random PD. So, what gives? Is it lack of institutional oversight? Higher ups in PDs thst don’t give a gently caress? How do you have soldiers in a combat zone carrying brand new M4s escorting prisoners to where they need to go in a professional manner and the same guys (Not all vets etc but Floyd’s killer was a two enlistment MP) carrying a glock and maybe a surplus rifle kneeling on a dude until he dies while their buddies look on?
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 14:48
|
|
|
UCMJ. And commanders fearing UCMJ if they get caught covering poo poo up. When that fear of consequences goes away, well, Trump's last few pardons speak for themselves.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 14:55
|
|
|
Short answer, soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen can go to jail for life for loving up or being malicious. Also I'm pretty sure I'm better trained to handle riots thanks to the Marines having to do embassy security and NEOs than your average david grossman poo poo gargling cop is. And you know, the emphasis there on protecting your people and getting the gently caress out during a disturbance rather than causing one via murder. But I was cannon crew and later guard infantry, i've only met maybe two MP's who weren't pieces of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:00
|
|
|
Soldiers will face actual repercussions; we are taught that from Day 1. We also received more training on it than cops. I think a large part also comes from the nature of the military. If you don't have some de-escalation skills, you won't make it. You have a poo poo ton of pissed off, alcoholic, testosterone filled 19yo. You either finds ways to de-escalate, or the entire system falls apart. I'm sure there is more, but those are the first things that pop into my mind. To put this in some perspective: I was a 19/20 year old Grunt who drove North on the Great Baghdad Roadtrip of 03, being given lots of welcoming presents by the locals. We arrived in Baghdad and became the town Marshals. XRays of my hands look like I boxed. I didn't; I just didn't think being a stupid rear end in a top hat was a capital offense, so if they had to take the ride, I would go hands on. I'm proud of this, because my job as a Grunt isn't killing; it's killing the enemy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:01
|
|
|
When you get thrown the gently caress out of the army, you get thrown the gently caress out of the entire army. When you get thrown out of the police department you go 10 miles down the road and start working at another one because they're tens of thousands of completely independent feifdoms
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:06
|
|
|
Also the police have strong unions that absolutely defend even the biggest piece of poo poo, as well as being dependent on local prosecutors to actually press charges (prosecutors who make their careers on the back of good police work, and they know it). The amount of inertia, red tape and pressure to overcome to even bring a cop up on charges makes them untouchable for all intents and purposes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:08
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:So, what gives? Is it lack of institutional oversight? Qualified immunity. And public sector unions that make it all but impossible to effectively discipline bad cops. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jul 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:11
|
|
|
For a lot of smal unit or 1 on 1 interactions, troops can be pretty careful amd reserved for the reasons above. But there are some gnarly sides. Part of why the military can be so careful is because there are often host nation super authoritarian police or locals who will do things the US won’t, and the US accepts it. We also tend not to actually send people to jail when we “oops” and airstrike or shell 8 bad guys and 20 villagers. E: reminder that the aftermath of killing dozens at the MSF hospital in Kunduz was administrative, with zero criminal proceedings. I don’t think the average citizen would be pleased with that. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jul 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:13
|
|
|
Well duh, because that's nobles. But an airstrike doesn't really have a law enforcement analog. Grunts are close enough to cops, and grunts absolutely will see punishment.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:36
|
|
|
Fine, absolutely no one went to jail after the Haditha massacre, but lots of administrative action. One NCO was reduced in rank for a count of dereliction of duty.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:52
|
|
|
That’s more like when the SWAT team threw the flash bang in the baby’s crib. Big yikes, but I evaluate accidental fuckups differently from active maliciousness. E: the airstrike not the massacre
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 15:55
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:So question for you all about that: one of the really common criticisms you see of policing in the US is that it’s over militarized, with a combo of the DoD’s leftover equipment, preferential hiring for vets, and militarized training being the commonly cited culprits. it's a mix of cultural and institutional factors, but like others have said the biggest one is the knowledge from day 1 what your legal obligations are, the personal experience of seeing those legal mechanisms enforced on your peers, and having an oversight system that is actually empowered to remove and punish people for cause. also, a lot of us roll our eyes at the whole "army values" bullshit but the military make a pretty significant effort during indoctrination to instill upon troops a standard moral framework. this, coupled with clearly defined and enforced legal limits and a culture where not just superiors but peers hold each other accountable, means even amped up 19-year-olds with heavy weapons can have complex interactions with civilians without just murdering them at the first inconvenience. most, if not all, of the criticism of the militarization of the police in America stems from the fact that they get military equipment without the moral and legal framework of when and how to use it, and what little training they do get is the "treat all civilians as the enemy" blue line horseshit so they use that equipment for every single interaction. i think the police would benefit greatly from something like UCMJ administered from a federal level but even then, only after years of seeing their buddies get hammered for breaking the law, will police culture start to change. you could also argue that this lack of moral framework is a possible reason why you see former military getting into problems as cops, because they transition from an institution with strong foundations to a weak one (that doesn't excuse their actions, though).
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 16:13
|
|
|
Pretty much everything has been said, but there's a bit of instilling some sense of hosed up morality that goes on too. Not in any small part just because of repercussions, but as a cult of personality and history too as far as not "disgracing the uniform/branch/history" etc. And holy poo poo, de-escalation and escalation of force training out the rear end. For all the years I was a close combat and martial arts instructor for my units, that was key to get across. Every time there was an NCO symposium or training review it was pushed hard that we make drat sure all our people were getting the right training to not be trigger-happy dipshits. That's something I'm still proud of, for all the stupid poo poo we did do, the training was always at least locked the gently caress on in terms of trying to mimic reality and how to act in the least forceful way, if force was even necessary (when dealing with people). Never stop loving training, never stop adjusting best/humane methods, don't get complacent. Like what has been said in thread already about the training the majority of cops receive, it's less than optimal. That's being generous. I don't even want to mention how awful some of the "range days" I've seen go down are.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 16:30
|
|
|
I wonder if media plays a part too. Like, a lot of war movies have some scene about soldiers being horrified at the civilian casualties and whatnot. By contrast, in all the copaganda shows I've seen, non-criminal civilians are usually just victims. The shows focus on the crimes done to them in almost a sadistic way, but the crimes done are by criminals, not the cops. They're just there for the cops to have someone to rescue, or as a prop to start off the chase on some criminal. The cops exist as the good guys, with no moral gray area. Kind of a rough train of thought, but hopefully y'all understand the gist of what I'm getting at.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 16:52
|
|
|
the tendency to actually believe in movies books games and that sort of stuff leads to a first subtle then growing and then metastatic madness that the entire rest of this site is set up to document the one thing that hitler and stalin had in common was this insane fanaticism about western movies and a complete tendency to accept their lessons on masculinity forex
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 16:58
|
|
|
The Rat posted:I wonder if media plays a part too. Like, a lot of war movies have some scene about soldiers being horrified at the civilian casualties and whatnot. By contrast, in all the copaganda shows I've seen, non-criminal civilians are usually just victims. The shows focus on the crimes done to them in almost a sadistic way, but the crimes done are by criminals, not the cops. They're just there for the cops to have someone to rescue, or as a prop to start off the chase on some criminal. The cops exist as the good guys, with no moral gray area. You know, now that I think about it I can't recall seeing a single episode in a serious cop drama or police procedure show that has a cop killing a civilian.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:You know, now that I think about it I can't recall seeing a single episode in a serious cop drama or police procedure show that has a cop killing a civilian. Grem in The Wire shoots a black cop.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 17:02
|
|
|
The Rat posted:I wonder if media plays a part too. Like, a lot of war movies have some scene about soldiers being horrified at the civilian casualties and whatnot. By contrast, in all the copaganda shows I've seen, non-criminal civilians are usually just victims. The shows focus on the crimes done to them in almost a sadistic way, but the crimes done are by criminals, not the cops. They're just there for the cops to have someone to rescue, or as a prop to start off the chase on some criminal. The cops exist as the good guys, with no moral gray area. It makes sense, but that I feel like it can be attributed to art imitating life. Look back at the realities of where we spawned cops from and that should give a truly horrifying idea of why we have what we have now. By no means do I say we didn't have horrible pieces of poo poo in the military, my only solace is that overall we did our best to either unfuck them or get rid of them in a way that was either rehabilitative or if that failed then to remove all possible power they had/could attain in or out. It didn't always work, but my experience was that we did what we could. Hell, when we did riot training we knew drat well it was something that we weren't going to send our hotheads to, and that a lot of us didn't really like the fact (at the time) that we were being intended for use in the US, but we figured it was better us than the cops for all the reasons that have been shown. It's a total shitshow all around.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 17:05
|
|
|
Yeah, and it works both ways since art and life both continue. I've seen the same thing at times with regards to veterans and PTSD. Guy grows up seeing in war movies that PTSD equals having been in the poo poo, and being in the poo poo equals being a manly man, therefore PTSD equals being a manly man. Then after they leave the service they cling to that PTSD aspect, hence those stupid rear end dysfunctional veteran brands and the like.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 17:14
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:You know, now that I think about it I can't recall seeing a single episode in a serious cop drama or police procedure show that has a cop killing a civilian. Al Powell shot a kid off-screen before the events of Die Hard, but then he learned how to shoot people again by the end of the film. Die Hard is great but what a loving character development subplot to put in the movie!
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 17:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 07:55 |
|
|
The Rat posted:Yeah, and it works both ways since art and life both continue. This, so much unfortunately this. I've tried my goddamn hardest to get my friends to seek help for their PTSD. They've seen me go from being an unfortunate wretch when I got out to where I am now, and will admit that treatment is a good thing "BUT NOT FOR THEM". It's infuriating because it's all due to deliberate misinformation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2020 17:33
|
|