2019 AFC East: I'm just going to assume we'll continue to suck

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Football Funhouse > 2019 AFC East: I'm just going to assume we'll continue to suck

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Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Here, have the top result for each _____ fan on imgur:

https://i.imgur.com/hXzb4vA.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/QPxdGvz.mp4

Well okay, except for the Patriots because that returns mostly just lots of pictures of guns and sad veteran memes, so instead:

# ¿ Jul 30, 2019 19:29

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 12:51

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Patriots probably aren't in the market for him regardless. They drafted a tackle in the 1st round last year.

Now a tight end or receiver, ooh boy.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2019 19:22

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Winning 9 games and looking competent would do more for the Jets' cap space then rollover money anyway.

Not having to pay $1.50 on the dollar for free agents because they think you're a loser trainwreck is incredibly valuable.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2019 20:52

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Kickers miss so few kicks relatively that missing like four more in a season by chance will drop you from the 5th most accurate to 25th.

All you want to be is not one of those half dozen teams each year that have a hosed kicker problem and you're good.

The difference between an average kicker and a great one is a couple of FG's and being willing to try (and having a way higher chance of missing) longer FG's. That said, kickers are such a low % of the cap, that you might as well lock them up nowadays, because their pay is practically a rounding error on the cap.

Kalli fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Aug 9, 2019

# ¿ Aug 9, 2019 20:28

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

The patriots have both Josh Gordon AND Demaryius Thomas fuckos!!!!

Really though, best skill guys in the AFC East is not exactly a strong competition.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2019 15:55

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Diva Cupcake posted:

RIP Edelman 2.0

drat, and here I thought it was finally the era of the slow, unathletic wide receiver

# ¿ Aug 13, 2019 16:11

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

4.76 40 time.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2019 16:15

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

mcmagic posted:

Pats fan logic is that guys like Gordon who hasn't been able to stay on the field ever in his career or Thomas who hasn't been good in 4 years are stone cold givens and guys on the Jets who have shown that they are on the upswing like Crowder, Anderson and Herndon are giant question marks.

Come on man.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2019 17:37

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Athanatos posted:

Who are the 2?

Dolphins in Miami and...

...poo poo I cant even come up with a maybe. I guess 1st game Steelers jitters loss?

Oh wow yeah, you aren't kidding. They definitely need to figure out their receivers and definitely could struggle like pre-Gordon last year, but man is that first half of the season pretty easy on paper.

Steelers
@Dolphins
Jets
@Bills
@Washington
Giants
@Jets
Browns
@Ravens
<Bye>
@Eagles
Cowboys
@Texans
Chiefs
@Bengals
Bills
Dolphins

# ¿ Aug 13, 2019 22:41

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

But this one's not a rapist or a petulant manchild, or an egotistical psycho OR a fat sack of crap!

I'm glad Romeo Crennel is back in the league.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2019 15:47

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

I was thinking of Weis. Romeo's a good guy, just not HC material.

Yeah I presumed you were talking about Patricia / McDaniels / O'Brien / Weis respectively.

Romeo was just good enough to be average, which wasn't enough. Dude got 10 wins in a season in Cleveland though with Derek Anderson balling out at QB, that's the loving high point of that franchise.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2019 15:51

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

mcmagic posted:

Nothing Gase did was as laughably awful as starting Nathan Peterman.

The Peterman funnily enough, balled out in the preseason last year. He is just like Matt Schaub levels of shook when the games actually matter.

Like I bet Peterman wins the backup job on the Raiders because in practice, he is just a significantly better QB then Mike Glennon.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2019 15:59

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

He might've stayed on if he called defensive adjustments because the 2nd team guys need that experience as well or if he didn't call defensive plays because they wanted to give him experience doing that.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2019 19:57

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Ehud posted:

FO: check out these ratings of football players. we've got everything all figured out! we call it DVOA

me: wow! how does DVOA work?

FO:

DVOA EXPLAINED
One running back runs for three yards. Another running back runs for three yards. Which is the better run? This sounds like a stupid question, but it isn�t. In fact, this question is at the heart of nearly all of the analysis on Football Outsiders.

Several factors can differentiate one three-yard run from another. What is the down and distance? Is it third-and-2 or second-and-15? Where on the field is the ball? Does the player get only three yards because he hits the goal line and scores? Is the player�s team up by two touchdowns in the fourth quarter, and thus running out the clock; or down by two touchdowns, and thus facing a defense that is playing purely against the pass? Is the running back playing against the porous defense of the Raiders, or the stalwart defense of the Bears?

Conventional NFL statistics value plays based solely on their net yardage. The NFL determines the best players by adding up all their yards no matter what situations they came in or how many plays it took to get them. Now, why would they do that? Football has one objective -- to get to the end zone -- and two ways to achieve that -- by gaining yards and achieving first downs. These two goals need to be balanced to determine a player�s value or a team�s performance. All the yards in the world won�t help a team win if they all come in six-yard chunks on third-and-10.

The popularity of fantasy football only exacerbates the problem. Fans have gotten used to judging players based on how much they help fantasy teams win and lose, not how much they help real teams win and lose. Typical fantasy scoring further skews things by counting the yard between the one and the goal line as 61 times more important than all the other yards on the field (each yard worth 0.1 points, a touchdown worth 6). Let�s say Larry Fitzgerald catches a pass on third-and-15 and goes 50 yards but gets tackled two yards from the goal line, and then Andre Ellington takes the ball on first-and-goal from the two-yard line and plunges in for the score. Has Ellington done something special? Not really. When an offense gets the ball on first-and-goal at the two-yard line, they're expected to score a touchdown five out of six times. Ellington is getting credit for the work done by the passing game.

Doing a better job of distributing credit for scoring points and winning games is the goal of DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. DVOA breaks down every single play of the NFL season, assigning each play a value based on both total yards and yards towards a first down, based on work done by Pete Palmer, Bob Carroll, and John Thorn in their seminal book, The Hidden Game of Football. On first down, a play is considered a success if it gains 45 percent of needed yards; on second down, a play needs to gain 60 percent of needed yards; on third or fourth down, only gaining a new first down is considered success.

We then expand upon that basic idea with a more complicated system of �success points,� improved over the past few years with a lot of mathematics and a bit of trial and error. A successful play is worth one point; an unsuccessful play, zero points with fractional points in between (e.g., eight yards on third-and-10 is worth 0.54 �success points�). Extra points are awarded for big plays, gradually increasing to three points for 10 yards (assuming those yards result in a first down), four points for 20 yards, and five points for 40 yards or more. Losing three or more yards is -1 point. Interceptions occurring on fourth down during the last two minutes of a game incur no penalty whatsoever, but all others average -6 points, with an adjustment for the length of the pass and the location of the interception (since an interception tipped at the line is more likely to produce a long return than an interception on a 40-yard pass). A fumble is worth anywhere from -1.7 to -4.0 points depending on how often a fumble in that situation is lost to the defense -- no matter who actually recovers the fumble. Red zone plays get a bonus: 20 percent for team offense, five percent for team defense, and 10 percent for individual players. There is a bonus given for a touchdown, which acknowledges that the goal line is significantly more difficult to cross than the previous 99 yards (although this bonus is nowhere near as large as the one used in fantasy football).

(Our system is a bit more complex than the one in Hidden Game thanks to our subsequent research, which added larger penalties for turnovers, the fractional points, and a slightly higher baseline for success on first down. The reason why all fumbles are counted, no matter whether they are recovered by the offense or defense, is explained in FO Basics.)

Every single play run in the NFL gets a �success value� based on this system, and then that number gets compared to the average success values of plays in similar situations for all players, adjusted for a number of variables. These include down and distance, field location, time remaining in game, and the team�s lead or deficit in the game score. Teams are always compared to the overall offensive average, as the team made its own choice whether to pass or rush. When it comes to individual players, however, rushing plays are compared to other rushing plays, passing plays to other passing plays, tight ends to tight ends, wideouts to wideouts, and so on.

Going back to our example of the three-yard rush, if Player A gains three yards under a set of circumstances in which the average NFL running back gains only one yard, then Player A has a certain amount of value above others at his position. Likewise, if Player B gains three yards on a play on which, under similar circumstances, an average NFL back gains four yards, that Player B has negative value relative to others at his position. Once we make all our adjustments, we can evaluate the difference between this player�s rate of success and the expected success rate of an average running back in the same situation (or between the opposing defense and the average defense in the same situation, etc.). Add up every play by a certain team or player, divide by the total of the various baselines* for success in all those situations, and you get VOA, or Value Over Average.

The biggest variable in football is the fact that each team plays a different schedule against teams of disparate quality. By adjusting each play based on the opposing defense�s average success in stopping that type of play over the course of a season, we get DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. Rushing and passing plays are adjusted based on down and location on the field; passing plays are also adjusted based on how the defense performs against passes to running backs, tight ends, or wide receivers. Defenses are adjusted based on the average success of the offenses they are facing. (Yes, technically the defensive stats are actually �offense-adjusted.� If it seems weird, think of the �D� in �DVOA� as standing for �opponent-Dependent� or something.)

The final step in calculating DVOA involves normalizing each year's ratings. As you may know, offensive levels in the NFL have gone up and down over the years. Right now, the overall level of offense in the league is probably at its highest level of all time. Therefore, we need to ensure that DVOA in a given season isn't skewed by league environment.

For teams, DVOA is normalized so that league averages for offense and defense are 0%. (However, because pass plays are more efficient than run plays, league averages for team passing and team rushing are not zero.) For players, DVOA is normalized separately for individual passing, individual rushing, and the three individual receiving groups (wide receivers, tight ends, and running backs) so that the league average for each is 0%.

Of course, one of the hardest parts of understanding a new statistic is interpreting its scale. To use DVOA, you have to know what numbers represent good performance and what numbers represent bad performance. We�ve made that easy. In all cases, 0% represents league-average. A positive DVOA represents a situation that favors the offense, while a negative DVOA represents a situation that favors the defense. This is why the best offenses have positive DVOA ratings (last year, Green Bay led the league at +24.7%) and the best defenses have negative DVOA ratings (with Seattle number one in 2014 at -16.8%). In most years, the best and worst offenses tend to rate around � 30%, while the best and worst defenses tend to rate around � 25%. For starting players, the scale tends to reach roughly � 40% for passing and receiving, and � 30% for rushing. As you might imagine, some players with fewer attempts will surpass both extremes.

DVOA has three main advantages over more traditional ways to judge NFL performance. First, by subtracting defense DVOA from offense DVOA (and adding in special teams DVOA, which is described below), we can create a set of team rankings that's based on play-by-play efficiency rather than total yards. Because DVOA does a better job of explaining past wins and predicting future wins than total yards, it gives a more accurate picture of how much better (or worse) a team really is relative to the rest of the league.

Because it compares each play only to plays with similar circumstances, this advantage also applies vis-a-vis situational team rankings. The list of top DVOA offenses on third down, for example, is more accurate than the conventional NFL conversion statistic because it takes into account that converting third-and-long is more difficult than converting third-and-short, and that a turnover is worse than an incomplete pass because it eliminates the opportunity to move the other team back with a punt on fourth down. The same could be said about plays on fourth down or in the red zone.

Second, unlike formulas based on comparing drives rather than individual plays, DVOA can be separated into a myriad of splits (e.g., by down, by week, by distance needed for a first down, etc.). Therefore, we're able to break teams and players down to find strengths and weaknesses in a variety of situations. All Pittsburgh third downs can be compared to how an average team does on third down. Josh McCown and Mike Glennon can each be compared to how an average quarterback performs in the red zone, or with a lead, or in the second half of the game. This doesn't just give us a better idea of which team or player is better. More importantly, it helps us understand why they're better, and therefore allows us to offer prescriptions for improvement in the future.

Finally, a third advantage of DVOA is that normalization makes our comparisons of current teams and players to past teams and players (going back to 1989) more accurate than those based on traditional statistics like wins or total yards, as well as those based on more sophisticated metrics that aren't normalized (e.g., expected points added, passer rating differential, etc.). For instance, which Denver Broncos team had the better offense: the 2013 edition with Peyton Manning, or the 1998 club led by Terrell Davis? Going by total yardage (7,317 vs. 6,092) or even yards per play (6.3 vs. 5.9), it's not even a contest. The 2013 team were clearly better. However, this ignores the fact that the average NFL offense was much more pass-oriented, and thus more efficient, in 2013 than in 1998. If we take the difference in offensive environment into account by using DVOA, it turns out that the 1998 Broncos offense was slightly better relative to the rest of the league (34.5% to 33.5%).

*It should be noted that certain plays are included in DVOA for offense but not for defense. Other plays are included for both, but scored differently. This leads to separate baselines on each side of the ball. For instance

Only four total penalties are included. Two penalties count as pass plays on both sides of the ball: intentional grounding and defensive pass interference. The other two penalties are included for offense only: false starts and delay of game. Because the inclusion of these penalties means a group of negative plays that don�t count as either passes or runs, the league averages for pass offense and run offense are higher than the league averages for pass defense and run defense.
Aborted snaps and incomplete backwards lateral passes are only penalized on offense, not rewarded on defense.
Adjustments for playing from behind or with a lead in the fourth quarter are different for offense and defense, as are adjustments for the final two minutes of the first half when the offense is not near field-goal range.
Offense gets a slight penalty and defense gets a slight bonus for games indoors.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2019 19:06

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Ehud posted:

what the hell i didn't say any of this?

Aaron Schatz is coming to your house with a snub nosed revolver and a vhs copy of Dan Marino vs Steve Bono from Dec. 12th 1994.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2019 19:14

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

That's the way football is meant to be enjoyed!

# ¿ Aug 20, 2019 20:49

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

I disagree but I laughed:

https://twitter.com/LoechnerNFL/status/1164742793874608129

# ¿ Aug 24, 2019 00:43

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

The Texans getting a good tackle for Clowney would make me question the value of having a GM.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2019 00:13

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Docjowles posted:

Meanwhile the NFL outsider with Belichick levels of football autism would be passed over for Brian Schottenheimer�s dog walker for a job, and the cycle of inbred mediocrity repeats forever.

That person just has to glom onto the kid of an NFL coach and then through hard work and determination they too could aspire to the heights of being a knockoff Ernie Adams someday.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2019 16:43

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Please name a blue chip QB that didn't have flowery articles written about his upcoming sophomore year.

Wanna go dig up some Jamarcus sophmore year hype-icles.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2019 17:18

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Tackle is probably the 2nd most important position on your team due to positional scarcity and the importance in protecting the most important guy.

If you have a good tackle and no replacement plan, pay them loving anything and don't get rid of them, god drat.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2019 18:51

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Also I don't know how often they work out in free agency, but Nate Solder has been complete dogshit since signing his giant contract

# ¿ Aug 29, 2019 21:01

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Armando and Omar cowering under a trainer's table as the players storm the facility and set fire to Chris Grier's office

# ¿ Aug 29, 2019 21:17

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Yeah, you know what. For that haul it's acceptable to trade a LT.

Good job stealing a dumb man's draft picks Miami.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2019 23:23

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

It'll probably be on the harder end for them to sign FA's, but they could always just buy a few draft picks, by like, trading for some horrific mistakes other teams made. Maybe you could have Todd Gurley and some Raiders next year!

# ¿ Sep 1, 2019 00:21

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Diva Cupcake posted:

lol. Also Jets claimed the kicker the Vikings paid a 5th for last week and a WR from the Pats called Berrios.

Braxton Berrios looked really good over the first half of camp then completely disappeared.

Also teams should probably gently caress around with their kickers less and replace their ST coaches more.

# ¿ Sep 1, 2019 17:54

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Can't wait to see half a roster start imitating AB.

Sir, sir, the Dolphins are revolting!

# ¿ Sep 9, 2019 00:03

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

I think if the Dolphins knew they were gonna tank like this this year they wouldn't have hired Flores and gone with a retread they could safely throw in the garbage after the tank.

Keeping Flores is gonna be tough because if the locker room is getting poisoned like reports, then he won't survive this, and it makes it tougher to get a good young coach to be willing to take the gig next year.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2019 15:49

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

If he gets there before the ball I can't see it with the naked eye

# ¿ Sep 9, 2019 16:19

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

The jets schedule is brutal and staring at an 0-6 burger is looking fairly reasonable at this point, BUT look at that next set of games. You should reasonably expect to have 4-7 wins by the end of that IF people get healthy and Adam Gase is worth half a poo poo.

Browns
@Patriots
<Bye>
@Eagles
Cowboys
Patriots

@Jaguars
@Dolphins
Giants
@Washington
Raiders
@Bengals
Dolphins

@Ravens
Steelers
@Bills

# ¿ Sep 12, 2019 15:55

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

What week will Jets/Dolphins/Bills get their first out of division win?

When do they each play the Giants?

# ¿ Sep 12, 2019 15:56

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

https://twitter.com/RichCimini/status/1172156250987139073

Now Gase has mono.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2019 16:38

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

fsif posted:

Wait what? Team doctors share the test results with the head coach before the player? What's Gase's bedside manner like? This seems like a slightly insane arrangement.

My guess is the doctors told Darnold and Gase he has Mono, then Gase went to tell Darnold he's out for awhile because Darnold probably thought he could play because he's just under the weather or whatever.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2019 16:46

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

The Dolphins defense had enough life in it that a merely bad offense would let them win a couple of games.

But holy poo poo Dolphins, your line can't block and your receivers can't catch at an NFL level.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2019 21:17

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Ehud posted:

I can�t wait to see how we screw up 3 firsts in 2020.

As long as you don't fire your GM immediately after the draft, I think you'll be okay.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2019 02:28

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Ehud posted:

stupid rear end in a top hat has to wait for a season where we're intentionally trying to lose to get a win down there lol

There's a great stat that Brady has more losses in Miami then he does in Foxborough over the last like decade.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2019 16:31

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Minka is good, but the Dolphins just got what is probably going to be like the 5th-15th overall pick for him. That's a pretty good haul

Steelers also got a really good corner who's cost controlled for two years, so it's not like the vast, vast majority of player trades.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2019 05:04

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

I didn't see the game last night but that seems high if the Jets are getting guys Mosley and other guys back, which I mean is a bit silly, but over 3 TD's is loving ridiculous for non-Dolphins teams.

I think I'd take Bengals -21 over the Dolphins right now though.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2019 18:05

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

Oh right, I completely brainfarted on Siemian, i didn't realize he went down last night.

Well then.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2019 18:18

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 12:51

Kalli: Jun 2, 2001

tarbrush posted:

I feel a 2-2 tie would be more appropriate, an extra soupcon of offensive ineptitude would really spice it up

I'd love to see a combined score in the 30's that was entirely off of defensive scoring.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2019 22:43

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Football Funhouse > 2019 AFC East: I'm just going to assume we'll continue to suck

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