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Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Rinkles posted:

Well yeah you can do crazy (fun) stuff in negotiation. I don’t remember, but I don’t think Sal has a discard theme in negotiation.

I was playing a weird deck where i was going heavy into doubt and Heated stacks, duplicating them and just getting a little bit of direct damage with some green cards

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Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?
Are there any deck builders out there that have a bigger focus on drafting, rather than augmenting your starting deck one by one? I realize Griftlands has mutators that that let you do this.

(I'd settle for a lifetime subscription of MTG Arena drafts)

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
Well, Hearthstone does that. It has a lot of single-player adventures that require you to cone up with decks, and multiplayer Duels mode that has you drafting a starting deck and updating it StS way.

But this advice is worthless cause everybody knows Hearthstone and proper drafting requires a lot of cards and thus a lot of grind or money.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
Had some fun with Sal's daily today. Got the cosmic that gets you a new card when you expend. The mutators didn't discard hand at end of turn, and the cosmic really liked giving me that card that discards your whole hand for defense and counter per discard. Real hilarious when you're getting multi-attacked.

Tom Tucker
Jul 19, 2003

I want to warn you fellers
And tell you one by one
What makes a gallows rope to swing
A woman and a gun

This game is lowkey awesome. I'm just leveling up everyone and unlocking cards in the main missions. It honestly took me a while to balance the game since it's not immediately obvious at first that negotiation is a means towards better fights, not a mutually complementary system. Once I learned that and threw shills at removing starting cards (and passing on cards that didn't directly enhance my chosen theme) I found a groove and I can generally have a good shot on each run at the 2-4 "prestige" or whatever the ascendancy mode is called on this.

Each character has so much personality, both in how they are drawn, animated, and voice acted, and in their fighting and negotiating cards and styles. Then you further customize how that character works through the individual campaign, and it feels organic within the rich story with tons of player choices that directly impact the ending, opportunities for mistakes, and sudden possibilities you didn't consider like having a pet dropped on you.

The art style is wonderful, the game feels balanced and challenging, overall just a joy to play. Has a steeper learning curve, obviously, but it rewards competency much better than Slay the Spire or Monster Train. Can't say how it holds up to mechanic mastery as I haven't gotten there in any of the games.

Overall great game

Tom Tucker
Jul 19, 2003

I want to warn you fellers
And tell you one by one
What makes a gallows rope to swing
A woman and a gun

Glazius posted:

Smith's guide to picking stuff up on the street:

SANDWICH - yes! (don't eat it and you can get a bunch of money or make a friend)
DAGGER - HESH NO (cornered by 3 50-health spree revvers. On day 2. what the hesh)

My first sandwich opportunity I ate it cause why not? Free sandwich! Ran into someone looking for it and did a negotiation to get more info on it, turns out they hid money in it to dodge patrols, so later when I had a poo poo on the side of the road I dug the money out. Such a tiny little decision tree but full of fun flavor.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry

Tom Tucker posted:

This game is lowkey awesome. I'm just leveling up everyone and unlocking cards in the main missions. It honestly took me a while to balance the game since it's not immediately obvious at first that negotiation is a means towards better fights, not a mutually complementary system. Once I learned that and threw shills at removing starting cards (and passing on cards that didn't directly enhance my chosen theme) I found a groove and I can generally have a good shot on each run at the 2-4 "prestige" or whatever the ascendancy mode is called on this.

Starter cards can get a build going if they upgrade the right way. Or they can upgrade to Lucid (power + expend) or Clarity (more power + destroy) and get themselves out of the way. But yeah, if you can't get anything good out of them, might as well be rid of them.

But yeah, you can't just negotiate or just fight; I mean, perhaps theoretically you could just fight if you lucked into an extremely solid fight deck, but the damage would stack up pretty quick. It's always good to build a strong negotiation deck so you can pick and set up your fights, but you need a strong fight setup to actually win them. That can be buying grafts or combat cards (seriously, shell out for some combat cards from your bartender, they're good stuff) or choosing to fight you can win with minimal social consequences to get XP on your existing deck.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
Usually in this kind of games, you complain about RNG when you don't understand the mechanics and cry over bad card draws. But I've just beaten prestige 4 as Sal, and prestige 5 differs only by lowering your health and resolve, and in my last game, they were never low.

There are so many moving parts so stars just align sometimes. I had some great social boons (most importantly bonus armor on any card-giving armor) and the enemies weren't hard. Quests can vary greatly: this time for the first time initiation quest for Admirals sent me to some caves where I could persuade a priest to help me beat 3 groups of bandits for lots of XP and find some loot. I didn't use my perks properly (had the one allowing you to hire someone who loves you; planned to use the bartender against Kashio but it's not allowed).

Don't think I'll try higher prestige levels, it feels kinda "solved" to me. Only won P2 with Rook so maybe he's more interesting. Hasn't even started Smith. Not saying that the game is supposed to be as replayable as StS and Monster Train, it has a lot of great about it.

Also I still can't get over the fact that I'm close to beating the game on the highest difficulty and I still have to guess boons and banes of people.

ilitarist fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jul 21, 2021

ugusername
Jul 5, 2013

ilitarist posted:

Also I still can't get over the fact that I'm close to beating the game on the highest difficulty and I still have to guess boons and banes of people.

I do agree that they are pointlessly obscured but you actually should know most of them by now since every specific "profession" has the same boons and banes. So every admiralty goon is the same as is every patrol leader bartender spree thug etc. And they really should not be unlocked person by person and just showed by their type. At this point you can check them out in your compendium but that is a lot of pointless clicking and I really hope Klei would change that.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
I might as well look them up at the wiki, the point is devs clearly consciously tell me I shouldn't base my decisions on this information. I don't understand the reasoning behind this. It kinda counts for the achievements and that's about it.

Lister
Apr 23, 2004

Rinkles posted:

this game received less fanfare than i was expecting

You can use the number of steam reviews as a very rough gauge of how many people have played or bought the game. It has almost 9k reviews, so I have to think a lot of people did end up buying it and trying it out. Monster Train has 12k.

I really really love it, but I have 200 hours in now and don't feel the need to beat every prestige level for Rook and Smith after doing it once for Sal. Ultimately, the game just isn't dynamic enough to get people hooked on it the same way as StS. The number of granular things to unlock in the compendium or all the meddle bonuses could be off putting as well. Even with the ton that I've played, my people tab is at 92%, boss is 84%, and graft is 94%. You really have to go out of your way to 100% absolutely everything and that's pretty lame.

I do hope there end up being some great mods or dlc to keep things going. But Don't Starve is such a cash cow for the studio that they might just keep working on that.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 7, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

ilitarist posted:

Don't think I'll try higher prestige levels, it feels kinda "solved" to me.

The highest prestige level disables all mettle and prestige upgrades and applies all of the lower prestige effects. It is legitimately pretty tough. Feels great when you beat it, though - it's undeniable proof that you can win with absolutely no crutches whatsoever.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
Ok, I might have sounded ignorant when I called the game "solved", but the point is that for Sal I see all the winning decks and don't know if there's a point in inventing something else. I've seen all the paths in the story and some seem more optimal to me than others. It comes down to lucky draws but the card variation is not something like StS (or, in the case of Monster Train, a variety of starting decks). I need a working deck by the end of day 2 and I struggle to think of a card that will determine my path by then or give me something to aim for apart from Combo or Bleed. Improvise and Discard are nice, but they feel like a nice addition to a deck, not the core idea. And I won't survive day 2 if I go deep into Improvise/Discard cause I'll probably won't get cards that trigger on discard/improvise by then. Maybe it'd be more fun if there was more of a starting kit like after P1 the game would just drop me at the beginning of Day 1 with some of those card selection mechanics they use in Daily Challenges. Maybe I'm completely missing on something but then it's an issue with a game if I can climb the difficulty ladder that high while missing something important.

I'll probably never put enough effort to beat P7 and I don't like the very idea. It'd be fun like a mutator or a mode, but it's the highest difficulty setting and the difficulty comes from outright removal of a mechanic.

I feel bad talking about the game in such a way cause it always sounds like those "game is not fun after 500 hours" Steam reviews. The game is great.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 7, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging
No, I definitely see where you're coming from - and I say that as someone who did enjoy beating the game at max prestige. It's not necessarily an indictment of a game to simply acknowledge its limits! Card-based games in particular tend to have a "sweet spot" where you face a reasonable degree of challenge, but are still free to gently caress around with weird cards and put together entertaining builds.

Personally, I've been getting a lot of mileage out of weird self-imposed gimmick/challenge runs, like "kill everyone you ever have a chance to kill, including Wanted Alive targets," "win the game while disliked or hated by as many people as humanly possible," and my personal favourite, "the Bog Knows! Cram your deck absolutely full of every lovely item, egg, and secret you can ever get your hands on. Become the Bog. Usurp the Bog. All hail Rook"

Lister
Apr 23, 2004

Angry Diplomat posted:

Personally, I've been getting a lot of mileage out of weird self-imposed gimmick/challenge runs, like "kill everyone you ever have a chance to kill, including Wanted Alive targets," "win the game while disliked or hated by as many people as humanly possible," and my personal favourite, "the Bog Knows! Cram your deck absolutely full of every lovely item, egg, and secret you can ever get your hands on. Become the Bog. Usurp the Bog. All hail Rook"

I was saying the same thing a few pages back. Maybe the game needs extra achievements or ways to change gameplay if you reach certain goalposts.

I'm up to 61 dead with Sal as my highest count on any character, any prestige. The key is to use the once per day hire a friend perk and allow them to die every day. Then double down and try to hire people from the meat market and allow them to die too. Always side with the spree since their base is a bar that often has people that will hate you in it, so you can fight them. The limited time ambush event only pops up if a spree person at least likes you, so you'll want to drink with those guys when you can. Do that, and it comes down to luck if you can get the main mission where you ambush groups of people to rob them.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 7, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging
It would be a shitload of writing to implement in any coherent fashion, but I'd love to see a goofy New Game+ mode where you play as one grifter going through another one's storyline, for some reason. Sal attempting to marry or murder her way into the Banquod family. Rook settling an old grudge with Kashio. Smith blundering confusedly around in the bog and throwing bottles at everything.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Angry Diplomat posted:

It would be a shitload of writing to implement in any coherent fashion, but I'd love to see a goofy New Game+ mode where you play as one grifter going through another one's storyline, for some reason. Sal attempting to marry or murder her way into the Banquod family. Rook settling an old grudge with Kashio. Smith blundering confusedly around in the bog and throwing bottles at everything.

i do like the couple of crossover events

ZepiaEltnamOberon
Oct 25, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022
I loved Griftlands' gamestyle but I gravitated towards Monster Train because it felt faster to play runs. Also because starting off in Griftlands with the same deck every time got sorta tiring, and removing cards was far more resource-intensive.

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009
Having more, or some big overarching Something(s) to tie all the main characters together was definitely something a lot of folks were hoping for that first dipped their toes in the water during early access in terms of an eventual v1.0.

As is, I can only hope they've Much More reckoned for this in terms of post-release, in whatever guise, than their prior titles as it Begs For It.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
Here we go, Sal Prestige 6 won. I had 2 failed Prestige 5 runs but I won Prestige 6 on my first try.

I still think there's too much luck and you lock into victory very early. By the end of day 1 your first couple of drafts define your deck. Later some unlucky combination of banes and enemies can murder you. I lost one of Prestige 5 runs when I didn't pay the attention to Oolo path event on the final day. When you guard a door you're supposed to kill some dude and if you spare him Oolo stops liking you and doesn't give you one of Keshio's boons, so you fight a much stronger version of her. Usually UI tells you if you're supposed to kill a character but not this time. Oh well.

Right now I'll probably play Smith's path and will be finished with the game, maybe play some dailies. I'm not interested in Prestige 7 cause it feels like an optional never-level-up challenge. I still have a lot of mettle to earn, so it's like I haven't even unlocked all those bonuses and you tell me to get rid of them. I don't like at all the fact that you have to earn prestige levels separatedly for all characters and all modes. Maybe I'd play Sal Brawl Prestige 6, but after playing Sal Brawl Prestige 1 I feel like I'll have to play few hours of relatively boring easy Brawl games. Maybe when I'm in the mood for such a thing. Same with other characters. You want me to play tutorial for each character - fine, but why should I climb the difficutly for each of them? I don't think any such game does that, certainly not Slay the Spire or Monster Train.

Samopsa
Nov 9, 2009

Krijgt geen speciaal kerstdiner!
Slay the spire ascension is also per character :confused:

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
Oh?.. My bad. Anyway, others like Monster Train are certainly not like that, they have the same difficulty for everyone. Here you have a separate difficulty ladder for Brawl and Story mode. Also in StS completing the main game (or rather beating the heart) for any character is an achievement in itself, I think it took me more time than beating P6, or second-to-last difficulty this game has to offer. So I don't get it.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
Honestly, the prerelease cinematics made it seem like the three grifters would meet up more than they do. I wonder if there's like an epilogue day or something in the works.

Smith brawl P2 down. The huge number of bosses in brawl makes some things unusually viable, like getting three boss combat grafts to have enough action overhead to run all three chain cards.

Bad Video Games
Sep 17, 2017


Just got this. I've finished Sal's story and I'm on Day 2 with Rook. It's fun! I probably won't put in as many hours as Slay the Spire but I definitely enjoy the stories and I'm sure to get my money's worth.

I'm not sure if I like Rook's gamble though. It feels weird.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?
there are multiple ways of stacking things in your favor, or taking advantage of either side of the coin. rook has some really fun negotiation archetypes.

Rinkles fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Aug 22, 2021

Bad Video Games
Sep 17, 2017


Gamble is starting to grow on me, and I'm doing all negotiation all the time. It's making me a little worried for the endgame.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
Yeah, some people think it's a choice between negotiation and combat. But it's not, you basically have to do both.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

I managed to do over 100 damage in one shot with smith the other day it owned

E: not even with the card that gets triple power/adrenaline bonuses, either

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Rinkles posted:

Are there any deck builders out there that have a bigger focus on drafting, rather than augmenting your starting deck one by one? I realize Griftlands has mutators that that let you do this.

(I'd settle for a lifetime subscription of MTG Arena drafts)

I haven’t played with mutators at all! That sounds kinda fun

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
Negotiation is there to help you pick your fights and get advantages in them. Usually you can prop yourself up some in battles by buying advanced cards and grafts, but a little experience now and then can help enormously.

Also bartenders. Bartenders are good for propping you up in general, but the items you can buy from them like Brain Gills, Slurry, Tincture, and adrenaline are a help. Though Sal has a nice advantage there with Fssh, as compared to Rook's more professional relationship with the static bartender.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry

Captain Foo posted:

I haven’t played with mutators at all! That sounds kinda fun

Oh yeah, the daily challenges trot out mutators if you just want a taste of them. Some of them can be pretty fun, and there are cosmic relics for more spice. And if you don't like them, it's only about 15 minutes of gameplay.

Bad Video Games
Sep 17, 2017


Managed to clear Rook's story! I ended up siding with the rebels the whole way and I can't wait to see the other paths.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Walla posted:

Managed to clear Rook's story! I ended up siding with the rebels the whole way and I can't wait to see the other paths.

The amount of crosses and double crosses in rook’s story is just great

Bad Video Games
Sep 17, 2017


I really appreciate that every day Rook could just say gently caress it and work for someone else. Though I do appreciate the simplicity of Sal.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 7, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging
I think I've said it before, but Smith's storyline is funny as hell to me. Imagine being Moreef. You're just minding your own business, trying to manage your bar and live your life, when the rich jock who bullied you in high school rolls in, announces that he's your friend, and starts beating the poo poo out of anybody who makes trouble for you. Within a day or two, you hear that he's somehow gotten embroiled in some intrigue involving the FBI, the Royal Family, and the Roman Catholic Church. At the end of the third day, he's using your bar to host what appears to be some kind of terrorist plot to overthrow or assassinate his brother, the Pope. By the end of the week he has inexplicably saved the loving world

You were just trying to run a bar.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist
First time I played as Smith I also accidentally murdered the troublemaker midboss. Moreef was just freaking tired. He disliked me from now on but still worked with me cause what can he do.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Angry Diplomat posted:

I think I've said it before, but Smith's storyline is funny as hell to me. Imagine being Moreef. You're just minding your own business, trying to manage your bar and live your life, when the rich jock who bullied you in high school rolls in, announces that he's your friend, and starts beating the poo poo out of anybody who makes trouble for you. Within a day or two, you hear that he's somehow gotten embroiled in some intrigue involving the FBI, the Royal Family, and the Roman Catholic Church. At the end of the third day, he's using your bar to host what appears to be some kind of terrorist plot to overthrow or assassinate his brother, the Pope. By the end of the week he has inexplicably saved the loving world

You were just trying to run a bar.

never thought of it this way before lmao

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
Eh, Sweet Moreef's got an iron core. He's your ticket to the party store and the people who set up Theroux. He's not prepared for the full extent of Smith, but neither are like 99% of the Pearlies and they're not gutless rubes.

The Admiralty is far from home and while the Pearl is getting a lot of Cult attention right now their real power base is up in Supplicant City. Smith's just a guy trying to pull the stalks of his better-off family members, for all that he's bought into this line about the world transforming from some reclusive bile-brokers.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Glazius posted:

Oh yeah, the daily challenges trot out mutators if you just want a taste of them. Some of them can be pretty fun, and there are cosmic relics for more spice. And if you don't like them, it's only about 15 minutes of gameplay.

I did the challenge yesterday and it was fun, and then did a sal mutator run with the 10-card draft setup and lots of pets

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Bad Video Games
Sep 17, 2017


So I cleared Sal's and Rook's stories pretty easily but I've hit a wall with Smith. After 3 failed runs I lowered the difficulty to Story Mode and that might be where I keep it since I'm much more interested in the stories and world than the deckbuilding.

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