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Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Little greasy, little grimy, little dirty, and a little bit slimy. Little porky, little stupid, little drunk, and totally useless.



Some people follow rules. Some people go around. There's always gonna be a better high, and a lower down.



Well you're probably sitting there on a mint
I'm sitting here with the ball of lint
Sent out the street cuz I can't make rent
Kicked out by two face Harvey Dent
Whatchu' know about a massive bag of puffs?
poo poo be stale before you open 'em up
Growing up, had it rough
I never got to taste no Cap'n Crunch




Does it matter if I live or die? Once I'm dead the sky will still be blue...Life’s a gamble and tomorrow’s never promised. So gently caress it, I say let’s roll the dice.





Ordered myself a SCCY model CPX-3 in 380 ACP. A true double-action-only that costs about two bills and comes with three 10-round magazines. It ran 60 rounds of Geco FMJ and PPU JHP without issue. POI apprears to be the tip of the front sight for a dead center hold. White dots already blacked out. We will be talking a lot about this. And I've already pressed a prototype AIWB holster as it needs to ride real deep for stability with the short snout.

Also grabbed my wife a Smith and Wesson M&P380 Shield EZ. Her first shot not only failed to eject but failed to fully cycle the slide, leaving the spent case in the chamber but re-cocking the hammer. Then she had a stove pipe. Daughter repeated the experience. Ran fine for my son and myself. Also ran fine for my wife after the first two stoppages. We'll also be talking some about this.

Suffice it to say for now that both guns have a mellow muzzle blast, rimfire grade recoil, good triggers, good sights, aggressive slide serrations, rack easily, and have a lot of promise.

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Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Forgot to post my first five shots, fired dead cold. A Wizard Drill from AIWB holster:



Will revisit this on my next range trip now that I roughly know POI/POI.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



A poster over on the Hi-Point Firearms Forums had an unteresting thought:

"I do think SCCY makes about the perfect pistol for social work. DA, hammer fired, no external safeties. Point and shoot simple. I did like my CPX-2!

...I wanted a SCCY CPX3 in the worse way, but after two false starts from SCCY I just sort of gave up on it. I am looking forward to your range report. I believe I could be very happy with the SCCY CPX3, the new Charter Arms 380 PitBull revolver, a Hi Point 3895TS and the Mossberg 500 20 gauge as a self/home defense battery..."

Doesn't sound an unreasonable set of belt gun, pocket revolver, pistol caliber carbine, and shotgun for the recoil averse and budget-constrained shooter. 3/4 would share ammo. Though I may personally consider the Taurus M380 moon clip fed revolver in place of the Charter as it is even smaller than a J-frame.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Butch Cassidy posted:

Forgot to post my first five shots, fired dead cold. A Wizard Drill from AIWB holster:



Will revisit this on my next range trip now that I roughly know POI/POI.

You print the best targets.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I'm kinda unsure how to post everything about these two guns in here. There is a lot to cover and I might just lay out some points and see if anyone wants more detail:

M&P380 Shield EZ (still hate this damned model name)

- The very misunderstood grip safety. (Spoiler: Improves the trigger)

- Thoughts across a small assortment of shooters with various ages and experiences.

- The insane fire control group.

- A soapbox rant about the advisability of the manual safety. (Both legal and practical with bonus training bit)

- Shopping for a weaponlight.

- The occasional validity of buying performance.

CPX-3

- Entertainment value.

- Loaner guns.

- gently caress me, the trigger pull is good.

- Looking like a true budget offering.

- Why is the machining this good for $ZAMAK?

- Half the price but most of the gun compared to the Smith and Wesson.

- Why are the mags this cleanly made and three included at this price?

- Actual drill and qual results as I track the first 500-1,000 rounds. Not this too-lazy-to-think introductpry range trip I posted.

- Reliability or lack of with JHP. (Spoiler: The PPU hollowpoints have cavernous tips with a wide, sharp meplat so looking good.)

- Where the budget manufacture becomes obvious.

- The importance of POA/POI as I futz with some loads.

Either/Both

- Weights

- Comparisons to more common contemporsry .380 autos.

Strayer
May 19, 2006



FWIW, The EZ Shield seems to have a bit of a problem with limp wristing(Is there a better term for this? Kinda hate using it), and maybe possibly ammo. We've sold a fair handful of them, because they do seem like the perfect auto for people who have trouble cycling the slides on compact autos. I've seen a couple of instances where customers were having the same problems with FTEs and stovepipes, and at least in the instances I have been involved in they were rectified after some coaching on stance and grip.

That being said, I am somewhat disappointed that limp wristing seems to be a common weakness in the pistol, considering the target market. I get Glocks being kinda limp-wrist susceptible, because they were designed with service use in mind, but the EZ Shield was straight up designed for a market section that is probably the most likely to have problems with recoil management.

I absolutely loathe the SCCY CPX1 and 2. Can't speak to the CPX3. I realize this adds nothing to the conversation, but I just do not like their stuff at all.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




One of my Concealed Carry magazines had a SCATHING review of the SCCY, and now I'm going to go find out which one. They had severe stoppages across three magazines every thirty to fifty rounds. They were attempting to do a 1000 round stress test and couldn't finish.

I carried a Kel Tec forever and still do. I love cheap guns. I'll buy a new Hi Point. But I'm really curious about the SCCY feedback that will hit this thread.

Also, they offer different colours. That's a plus.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Strayer posted:

FWIW, The EZ Shield seems to have a bit of a problem with limp wristing(Is there a better term for this? Kinda hate using it), and maybe possibly ammo. We've sold a fair handful of them, because they do seem like the perfect auto for people who have trouble cycling the slides on compact autos. I've seen a couple of instances where customers were having the same problems with FTEs and stovepipes, and at least in the instances I have been involved in they were rectified after some coaching on stance and grip.

That being said, I am somewhat disappointed that limp wristing seems to be a common weakness in the pistol, considering the target market. I get Glocks being kinda limp-wrist susceptible, because they were designed with service use in mind, but the EZ Shield was straight up designed for a market section that is probably the most likely to have problems with recoil management.

I absolutely loathe the SCCY CPX1 and 2. Can't speak to the CPX3. I realize this adds nothing to the conversation, but I just do not like their stuff at all.

For the love of God, post more! You are perfect for this thread.

Have you noticed if the Shield EZ breaks in to be less fussy as the springs soften up and moving bits lap to a smoother interface? And I'm glad to hear other people have concerns about the implementation vs. target market. Grandma is unlikely to have much slush in the Social Security check to get training, source the ammo that hits to sights/runs most reliably, and shoot enough to wear it in. A big issue and particularly annoying when the rest of the design is near perfect for the application. Oh, have you seen any results from cleaning out the factory oil and using a quality grease?

As for SCCY, I always saw the milled steel and aluminum at a ZAMAK price point and refused to go near their nine millimeters. Something has to give and sounds way too good to be true in a service caliber. Then I found out that they released a fat, biggish 380 ACP and was on it like white on rice. Lower chamber pressure, no abusive recoil, and could be like Glock's model 42 but easier to live with as a primary-size gun. If it works and I trust the diminutive 9mm Kurtz to hold up more than the racehorse 9mm Luger. So far, so good and no signs of hold sensitivity. But mine is only sixty rounds in. I did clean it after making the holster and before firing a shot. The freshly applied Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2 may not be indicative of performance out of the box and to the range in the average Joe's hands.

But I'm really hoping that I was wrong in my assumptions about the CPX-3. Expected it to be trash. But it is looking like I may eat crow. So far, I genuinely like this thing. My opinion and biased by a willingness to gently caress with things combined with some competemce in doing so, but actually like it more than the Shield EZ without even grading on a curve.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I've got my range trip planned for the CPX-3:

Cold Drill: F.A.S.T.
Why? Two precise shots at range, a reload from empty, and four quick shots to a more generous center-of-mass. All on a timer with such severe penalties that it effectively has a 100% accuracy standard. This will be a good test of my upcoming front sight paint job, see if I still ride the slide stop since introducing it to the belt sander/file/abrasive pad, and get me running the trigger faster/better (also a test of my reprofiling of the trigger). And give me a simple benchmark to recisit at the end of my recorded range time. Oh, will also test my draw with the holster onve I've set it to a deeper ride.

Then: Ohio's police handgun qualification.
Why? Retention shooting, one-handed shooting on each side, movement, draws, a reload, varied ranges, two different target zones, varied strings of fire, par times reasonable to get quality hits, all recorded for reference and to note points for improvement.

Next: Draws to one hit on a 6" plate from 7 to and aspirational 30 yards. Mostly at the seven yard line.
Why? This is designed, manyfactired, and advertised as a defensive handgun. The single most important skill for such things is a quick draw to a solid first hit. Be good reps of a good trigger roll and start giving me an idea just how crude the sight alignment can be allowed to get on this gun.

On To: Strong-hand-only on ~3" dots.
Why? I like to wind down with accuracy-centric shooting. I also need to work more one-handed shooting.

Up Next: Weak-hand-only on ~3" dots.
Why? Same reason.

Maybe throw in there somewhere: Heavily modified L.A.P.D. retired officer qualification. Seven yards, black of a B-8 scoring zone versus the whole silhouette, fired in four strings rather than one (single shot to pair to triple to four shot string and all from the draw).
Why? Get a feel for the low recoil as it relates to various string lengths.

Equipment Note: Will use a Gymboss interval timer on the Ohio qualification and to set a 2.00 second par on my draws to first shot. Well, 2.00 at seven yards. Up to 3.00 at longer ranges.
Why? Budget timer for a budget gun. Also so I can set the number of reps for my draw to first shot and control my ammo consumption and easily track rounds fired at the end. Probably eleven reps at seven yards then three to five each at 10, 15, and 20.

Range Planning Note: Going to pull a lot of my range work from the Tactical Professor's e-books but likely modify them.
Why? Cheap distance learbing designed for shootiers with limited time, ammo, and range facility resources. Each e-book costs less than a box of ammo and was tailor made for the sort of person likely to buy a SCCY.

Courses of fire for future range trips: Claude Werner's 12-Shot drill, New Hampshire police handgun qual. to test barricade and support side supported shooting, revisit the Wizard drill, more draws to first shots, Burp-A-Shot, Hi-Point 2-2-4 drill, Claude Werner's Monte Casino drill, Claude Werner's hostage scenario course of fire to demand accuracy. And, if they come in stock any time soon, SCCY's own multi-drill target pack. Also presentations from low ready while yelling at the target.

Goal: Throughly vet the pistol across a range of reasonable practice and testing sessions. Side goal of having recordable and understandable results to share with prospective buyers. Priority on activities attainable and useful to novices and those with, say, a 50 round per month ammo budget.

Support Gear Side Note: Will be pressing an outside-the-waistband holster for this thing.
Why? OWB carry is very common among novices, older folk, people just visiting the range, and those that plain like comfort/convenience. The short snout on this thing begs for it, anyway.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Butch, your methods are the best. I trust your experience much more than “RECOIL : CONCEALED” magazine.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



No photos is stock form but plenty of results on for comparison:




Thinned the slide catch and ramped the top before blending to see if it stops me riding the thing.


Then took a swiveling deburring tool to the front cormers of the trigger to hog out a bunch of material. Then blended and radiused with a series of sandpaper up to 400 grit. Finished with an abrasive pad and it feels good as-is so there will be no burnishing. Some people prefer a wide, flat trigger face for double-action but I am very much not one of them.

About to try out the metallic glitter filled red nail polish I just bought for the front sight. Also grabbed a bottle of same brand clear top coat to give it some more longevity. Did run into a guy from work while perusing the nail aisle. He was giving me an odd look while juggling his long weekend suitcase of beer. My feathered woolen flatcap got the comments, though.

E: The gently caress was I thinking? Forgot to get a white base coat for the nail polish. We'll see how this glittery polish does on its currently very dark and borderline pointless own. Then almost certainly hit it with remover, buy some white, apply, re-do the red glitter, and finish with clear top coat.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Aug 16, 2019

Strayer
May 19, 2006



Butch Cassidy posted:

Have you noticed if the Shield EZ breaks in to be less fussy as the springs soften up and moving bits lap to a smoother interface? And I'm glad to hear other people have concerns about the implementation vs. target market. Grandma is unlikely to have much slush in the Social Security check to get training, source the ammo that hits to sights/runs most reliably, and shoot enough to wear it in. A big issue and particularly annoying when the rest of the design is near perfect for the application. Oh, have you seen any results from cleaning out the factory oil and using a quality grease?

I can't really say. We've sold a few, but I haven't gotten a lot of feedback from those specific customers. It wouldn't surprise me if they do need a bit of a break-in. I'm hoping to talk the boss into getting an EZ shield in the range rental program, then I could really get a good impression of how well it runs.

Regarding ammo, I'm not a .380 enthusiast, but my understanding is that they tend to be kind of like 22 autos in that sometimes they are a bit picky about what they want to eat. We mostly use Federal RTP ball ammo for our ball ammo sales, and IIRC that's what at least two of my limp-wrist(I really do hate using this term) cases were running. Possibly going to a hotter ball round might alleviate the issue, if for no other reason than the faster slide impulse might get around limp-wristing bleeding off the energy of the slide trying to cycle. By that same token, I'd probably avoid using grease and stick with a lighter oil: Full disclosure, I am not a scientist and my answer to lubrication problems is to bust out the Slip2k for all the things.

Lastly, with regards to the training aspect, I get what you are saying about the target market not having a lot of opportunity to get hands on coaching. I'm a bit 50/50 on things right now. I've dealt with a couple of cases personally: The one that sticks out in my memory was a lady in her late seventies who had some sort of nerve damage in her support hand, basically preventing her from being able to grasp things firmly. I worked with her for about twenty minutes or so, The big trick for her was taking a more aggressive stance: pushing her support foot out and leaning into it, which not only put more of her weight behind the gun but it also helped keep her from letting her shoulders roll back. Once she got the hang of it, I loaded mags for her as she blazed through a box of 50 without issue. So it's not hard to get somebody running one right, but that's also going from a very small sample size. Also, like you said, the accessibility of hands on coaching. I'm totally happy to spend time helping people to learn how to shoot more gooderer if I'm not needed elsewhere in the shop, but most places in my experience won't give you much more than a derisive sneer if you're not actively purchasing something or aren't part of their favorite customers list.

It's all made me a bit more cautious about selling the EZ Shield to its target audience. I make a point of telling folk about what I've seen from it and what to be aware of whenever somebody wants to see one. I mean, I personally like the gun a lot, probably the only 380 I've ever actually thought about buying, and I still suggest it to the folk it is built for, but I make sure that they're fully aware of the potential pitfalls.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



My big thing with grease is its habit of staying put. Particularly for people likely to have a rather unambitious scheduled cleaning regimen. Like the EZ's target market. A good, sticky grease that doesn't tend to separate and let the carrier run off is nice there. I like Red 'N' Tacky #2 but am biased. It is used in ski lifts and a lift mechanic gave me a lifetime supply. That it's great stuff is a mere bonus.

Anyway, the glittery nail polish over a primer coat doesn't photograph well. I can see this little bastard by the light of my dim bedroom lamp. Dryfiring at tile intersections in the bathroom, lught reflecting off the tiles behind me make it show well. And I like dim household lighting:




Tweaking the AIWB holster has gone well, so far. Looking like a good ride depth to record for future work. Am starting to seriously think about just how well-heeled one could be with some very inexpensive kit:



I'd also be curious to hear more about getting unique people squared away. So much material available is by and for full-sized adult males and women willing to dress around some serious hoglegs. Getting good things to run with when claw-handed arthritis sufferer or inhured person asks to be taken to the range.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Aug 17, 2019

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


Butch Cassidy posted:

Why? OWB carry is very common among novices, older folk, people just visiting the range, and those that plain like comfort/convenience. The short snout on this thing begs for it, anyway.

Could you elaborate on the last part? Does IWB rely on having more barrel length being pinned between the pants and waist to keep the grip tucked in? I’ve been thinking my Bersa’s barrel probably wouldn’t go more than an inch past my belt if I was keeping it at a normal ride height.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



That is absolutely true. My pojnt was that classic concealed carry gun like Colt Commanders and such put short slide on full-size gripframes. The short slide gave a cpver garment's hem more room to move around without a gun peeking out the bottom. It also cleared leather a titch faster with the draws of the day. So I bet this thing would be mighty comfy with one and have a feeling most people ordering a CPX-3 holster would go that route.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



OPOTA handgun qualification with the SCCY and mix of Winchester White Box and PPU jacketed hollowpoint:


If I allow myself line ticklers, clean by my own standards. Super clean by Ohio's standards.

Had one stoppage working low-ready to single hits on an 8" plate at 25 yards. Nose of a PPU hollowpoint hung up and was remediated with a tap-rack-bang. I will get into some mag break-in later.

Friend and I ran 60 more rounds* through the CPX-3, today. He's already threatening to buy one for himself. Another buddy who has just dryfired mine plans to get one if it shoots for him when we get to the range together. I don't know what the hell.


* Mix of WWB, Speer Gold Dot, and PPU hollowpoints. One stoppage so far with the PPU.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Forgot to mention the .380 Shield EZ. The roll pin for the loaded chamber indicator and breach face is walking out the starboard side. Boo.

The slide itself is rather short in height. This makes for a cramped job of racking the thing. Bit like a CZ 75 in that respect. Despite being a bit lighter to rack than the SCCY, most people seem to be having an easier time working the cheaper gun. Would not have expected that.

Sights do drive the dot. I like that, personally. Gave my 8" plate a workout at 25 yards. Though the SCCY also did as well if slower.

Unrelated to the guns themselves, I dumped a PPU hollowpoint out of the CPX-3 and into a line of six milk jugs. Penetrated four, puncturing the back of the fourth. Full expansion with petals sheared off in jugs #1-3. Jacket separated but also settled in jug #4. Lined up six fresh jugs and draped the leg of an old pair of firehose pants over the front for two layers. Smoked through all six and jeaded for the berm with some remaining piss and vinegar. Safe to assume it plugged with cotton and did not expand. Not exactly science but I was curious.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Friend's wife needed coaching to run the Shield EZ. Her first shot resulted in an immediate stoppage. Ran fine after he got her to grip it like she meant it. Reports that she shot the SCCY better with no stoppages but was less confident with.

I think my buddy described the EZ's proper market pretty well. "This isn't for first step novices to drop in the sock drawer like a revolver can be. It's for beginners who can and will take a basic class or at least have someone competent available to show them a workable grip and tap-rack-bang." I'd just add folks who plain want a defensive handgun with a minimum of fuss and bother. Because it shoots great and is nicely thin for the waistband.

Oh, another gripe. I really wish Smith and Wesson had opted for an HK-style trigher guard paddle for the magazine release. Way, way less chance a mag. pops loose at an inopportune time. Like a righthanded shooter pressing it into the nightstand when grabbing the gun at zero dark thirty.

I think I personally appreciate the market impact the Shield EZ may have than the gun itself. Of other large makers release competitors, a massive and underserved market segment may get better models and options to choose from as best fit their specific needs/desires.

Party Plane Jones
Jul 1, 2007

by Reene


Fun Shoe

really the Shield EZ exists to allow S&W to not do anything about the Shield itself, because racking that sucker is unpleasant when new

edit: have you test shot the cpx-1/2 and what are the fundamental differences triggerwise for those? Cause what I've heard is oof, the trigger is bad and they're a bit unreliable for the older ones

Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Aug 18, 2019

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




My father, who shot guns for the first time last week, couldn't rack my LCP. He is substantially stronger than me, but it's a learned motion.

I can see a market existing for "Easy Rack" guns.

Party Plane Jones
Jul 1, 2007

by Reene


Fun Shoe

Captain Log posted:

My father, who shot guns for the first time last week, couldn't rack my LCP. He is substantially stronger than me, but it's a learned motion.

I can see a market existing for "Easy Rack" guns.

talon grips cut out to fit the serrations, or slide spiders

a lot of the problem i have with tiny guns is there's just no friction to get purchase on the hideously small slide so having anything for my fingers to catch on is a godsend

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Party Plane Jones posted:

talon grips cut out to fit the serrations, or slide spiders

a lot of the problem i have with tiny guns is there's just no friction to get purchase on the hideously small slide so having anything for my fingers to catch on is a godsend

I'm lucky that even with all my physical problems, I spent most of my life being a bass player. Because it's checked nearly monthly, I still have 118 pounds of grip strength. Pinching slick metal and racking a slide isn't an issue for me. I also had the Key Tec P3AT for loving ever as my carry gun.

But on the other hand, a person once showed me his bow. He was a tiny little guy and pulled back the sixty pound bow without an effort. I couldn't.

I think it has more to do with practicing the physical motion than needing a specific level of strength.

Actually, this is the type of thing I'd love to read about. Butch, do you know of any "tests" that have been run in regards to people of different ages and health racking slides?

Party Plane Jones
Jul 1, 2007

by Reene


Fun Shoe

Captain Log posted:


Actually, this is the type of thing I'd love to read about. Butch, do you know of any "tests" that have been run in regards to people of different ages and health racking slides?

there's a guy who tests kitchen gadgets/appliances ease of use for people with disabilities by using a fairly unique method: doing it weakhandedly, with olive oil spread on the hand to simulate grip difficulties

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w08XDXjJhsQ

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Party Plane Jones posted:

there's a guy who tests kitchen gadgets/appliances ease of use for people with disabilities by using a fairly unique method: doing it weakhandedly, with olive oil spread on the hand to simulate grip difficulties

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w08XDXjJhsQ

Ooooh, thank you.

Now I’m going to try racking and loading guns offhand.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I neglected to mention why I also picked up a Gymboss interval timer. Primarily because I absolutely loathe using my phone to space sprints. Also because it has been mentioned in several of Claude Werner's e-books. I love it. Set it to four reps of a 6 second session with 10 second space. Because MDFI's Foundation Qualification has four stages of six seconds each at five yards.

1) From low-ready, fire five rounds.

2) Draw and fire four rounds.

3) From low-ready, fire one round, speed reload, and fire two more rounds.

*Stage gun with round chambered and empty magazine*

4) From low-ready, fire one round, emergency reload, fire one more round.

Target: 8.5"x11" shert of paper in portrait orientation with a 4.25"x5.5" quarter sheet of paper centered within, also portrait orientation.

Scoring: For Basic level, 12/14 shots in time on the sheet of paper. For Advanced level, 12/14 shots in time on the 1/4 shert of paper.

Note: I shot this cold and from memory. hosed up stages three and four by starting from the draw. Also marked the wrong ammo. Actuall used an initial load of 10+1 Remington Golden Saber with the remaining three rounds being Geco FMJ.



Made Advanced with a score of 12/14 (final two shots of stage #3 over time). If I correct for the draw, made 13-14/14. With a God damned SCCY.

Then shot Rich Grassi's comparative Standards to see how the modifications worked out for me.



Way the gently caress better. This gun is genuinely enjoyable to shoot and easy to get along with. Would seriously consider carrying one.

Then loaded 10+1, holstered, set the interval timer to a two second session with 8 second space for eleven reps, stood seven yards from my 6" plate, and worked my draw. From hands at sides, a fence, and my keychain OC in hand to transition weapons. Dropped one going Ricky Bobby, went a hair over when dropping the keys, and rest hits in time.

So, 14+20+11=44 more rounds on the clock with no stoppages in this session. Mix of Remingtom Golden Saber and Geco full metal jacket. Magazines are starting to break in. And I will say again that I actually like this gun quite a lot. Oh, and setting the holster to ride more deeply to the point my grip contacts the waistband and belt has not slowed my draw. That surprised me.

E: For comparison, here are my MDFI Qualification targets and times with my Ruger LCP and heavy LEM converted forty caliber HK USP compact, repectively.





Closer to compact service caliber performance than the usual 380 ACP pocket rocket.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Aug 19, 2019

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



For my own reference in tracking round count:

Total (accounted for) - 164

Loads - Geco FMJ, PPU JHP, Remington Golden Saber (10+1), Speer Gold Dot (10+1), Winchester Military (repackaged White Box?)

Stoppages, Total - 1

Stoppages, User-Induced - 0, possibly 1*

Note - Total round count is lower than the real. Not tracking all ammo fired by others and did not track all of my own in the first two range trips.


* Loading magazines is quirky while they break in and can be screwed up. Did bugger it once and it may have been a factor, here. Likely either the ammo or a breaking in magazine. Same failure seen in another review of a different 380 ACP with same ammo. Also seen in a review of the CPX-3 using WWB.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Aug 19, 2019

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Speak of the devil, the Tactical Professor recently posted a subtly but importantly interesting comparative handgun evaluation for prospecrive buyers. The advice to rent or otherwise borrow and try several different handguns is often given. Okay. But no framework is ever provided. I like his nodel for being easily scalable for both target size/shape and timer work being readily added while using less than half a box of ammunition.

It involves loading magazines, loading the gun, manipulation of every control, strings varied from one to six rounds, ranges from three to ten yards, ball and dummy, immediate action (tap-rack-bang), roughly sinylated clearance of a double-feed, simulated reload to be workable with guns only having a single magazine available at the range, and strong-hand-only shooting. All solo with no coaching beyond an initial briefing of the controls specific to the gun and basic gunhandling if necessary.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Picked up a rough, pre-Taurus Rossi snub in 38 Special to see how a comparably priced revolver would perform next to the SCCY. Keyholes at five (5) yards to the point holding in a 5" circle is difficult. Can pass the L.A.P.D. retired officer qualification course of fire but it ain't pretty. Endshake causes some primers to fail to pop. Firing pin strikes off-center. Brass binds in the cylinder. Ejector rod doesn't because of the binding. Cylinder stop on the frame catches on case rims so extraction is rotationally positional. Pachmayr Compac stocks are nice, though. Gonna see if they fit my J-frame.

Not returning the Rossi as I knew full well about the endshake and firing pin strikes to the cylinder. Guess someone else was in and tried to but it, today. Luckily for them it was tucked away for me.

Do want to find one in shootable condition, though. I rather like a lot about the gun and how it handles recoil. Be nice to fill a historical slot in the "give cheap guns a chance" part of my collection. Stopped wasting ammo through this Rossi and finished my range trip rotating the carry ammo out of a good revolver:

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Aug 24, 2019

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



So, bullets are tumbling because so much lead is smeared in the barrel that loooong patches of ridling are filled in above the lands. And the cylinder is not out of tine to cause off-center pin strikes. The firing pin channel bushin is worn oval and presenting low. Endshake seems reasonable so won't worry for now and can shim later. Stuck brass is the result of burrs that I just filed. At least I hope just the burrs.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Fighting lead with ammonia and deburring weren't enough for the Rossi. Fewer bullets tumbling but jacketed and lead at different weights still doing the twist. Brass still fails to eject with one chamber in particular being a bear to rip on out.

Anyway, picked up some approved (green) B-27 targets and had my wife run through the Texas state LTC qualification. I demomstrated each string with my .22 LCR and she then used her M&P380 Shield EZ. Started at 15 yards to account for all shots and did add an aiming point as Texas doesn't prohibit such:


LCR


EZ (I still hate that stupid loving name.)

All on paper with a new gun, at relative long range, and while nervous after several very hard goes with a 9mm on a similar drill. Five shots in 15 seconds at 15 yards looks harder than the 5 shots in 15 seconds at seven yards which had stalled her with a more assertive caliber. So the gun definitely helped and she did better than expected.

Then shot at seven yards and finished with three, effectively reversing the order to make scoring more sure. Her performance on the "rapid fire" string was great with all easily within the 5pt zone. Despite her nerves about cranking five scored shots off in three seconds. She also gave the 10 ring hell in the 5xSingles in 2 second strings.


LCR final. Intend to re-shoot with my CPX-3 in Semptember and also have a friend run the course with his carry gun.


EZ (S&W, please sack your marketing department, TIA) final. She did have two stoppages which were cleared on the clock and still in time. Case ejected but slide wasn't far enough back to strip a fresh round, closing on an empty chamber. A reminder to grip it like she was trying to crush the thing solved the problem. Going to see if hotter carry ammo helps with the problem. Or even peppier range fodder.

So, a novice and nervous shooter with a new-to-them gun managed to pass the country's hardest* concealed carry qualification by a very comfortable margin. More importantly, every bullet fired was a hit. She got pretty handy with the safety by the end as I did insist on proper "on target, off safe; off target, on safe" manipulation even between the singles. If only it wasn't grip-sensitive. Oh, back to the safety, she had zero bobbles with the thing despite it being a new feature and my having told her how I wanted it run but once before starting. People might want to really have a think about their bias against safety devices. It is irrational**. I even noticed her doing something with it that will generate a separate post all its own.

No fatigue for either of us by the end. She actually shot more 9mm Corto at the little guy in the corner from five yards to cool down with some focus on proper fundamentals and so did I. We then shot rimfire rifles from ten to 55 yards with the kids. A box of 9mm would have seen her rattled by muzzle blast by the fiftieth shot.

Edit: Just noticed that 40/50 landed in the 5pt zone. Even discarding every seven ring and greater silhouette hit as an outright miss if holding oneself to a higher measured standard, she would have passed with an 80% score.


* If there is an objectively more difficult one, I want to hear about it.

** As is concern about double-action triggers.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Aug 29, 2019

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Full Disclosure: The CPX-3 was sent to mothership for service and came back about a week later. The trigger weight increased by several pounds, started creaking, and felt like something was binding. SCCY made no comment with regards to all the grinding I had done and the gun came back with a new trigger and who knows what else. I've already reprofiled the new trigger and shot a Wizard Drill cold from a deep AIWB holster. Cleaned it easily:



Then shot the Langdon 9 Shot Speed Drill and learned I can't run this as fast as my USP compact but no real surprise there. Also shot one rep of New Hampshire's police handgun qualification. Strong-hand-only, weak-hand-only, standing, kneeling, strings from 2-8 shots, a reload, standing, kneeling, draws, 3-25 yards, around a barricade, two-handed but lefty, and no bobbles in 50 rounds fired. Still like this gun.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



The Hi-Point Firearms Forums have a poster on point. SCCY has announced a CPX-4 which is identical to mine plus manual, frame-mounted safety. Hinge is toward the muzzle, unlike a 1911 hinged at the rear.

Could be an interesting an inexpensive option for off-body carry.

Edit for a new review I just found. This bit stuck out for me:

"...However, there are some huge benefits to using a .380, in the proper platform. Those benefits are really apparent during my time so far with SCCY's newest pistol, the CPX-3. Keep in mind here, that when I say 'proper platform' I'm talking about a bigger gun, not necessarily one of those micro compacts like the Beretta Pico or the Taurus Spectrum..."

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Sep 12, 2019

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



125 more rounds on the clock. Fifty in a friend's hands, four in my daughter's, seventy-one in mine. One failure to extract with a Hornady American Gunner in my hands while working reps of draw to single shot on a 6" plate. May not like the ammo and will try some other XTP loadings plus other JHP like Gold Dot, Golden Saber, PDX1, and Hydra-Shok. Anyway, just got back from a run through the Five-Yard Roundup*:



So it shoots about as well for me as my .22 LCR despite being a centerfire. Hoping today's stoppage was just ammo and/or dirty gun as I still need to clean the thing.



* As I am also playing with beginner friendly, easily administered, budget conscious drills with minimal gear requirements, let's talk about it.

Target: B-8 repair center
Distance: 5 yards
Par time, all strings: 2.5 seconds (no harm in using 3 seconds on an interval timer)
String 1: Draw to single shot
String 2: From any ready position, four shots
String 3: From any ready position, three shots strong-hand-only
String 4: From any ready position, two shots weak-hand-only
Scoring: All shots expected in time. Initially strive for all hits on the paper, then all in the 8" eight ring, then all in the 5.5" nine ring. All in the ten ring if a madman.
Note: I like the scaling accuracy standard. Claude Werner has lately been noting that a landscape oriented 8.5"x11" sheet of paper is the size of the upper chest above the diaphragm. The 8" circle is a very common standard. The 5.5" black of the nine ring is the size of a heart. Nice to set a goal with a next level to aim for no matter your current experience.

Also nice that is only takes ten rounds while testing a draw, strings from 1-4 shots, is scorable/recordable, only takes one target, if using a large backer it only even uses a portion of that to allow other work elsewhere without constant changing of targets, can compare various ready positions, tests both SHO and WHO shooting, one-handed shooting forced on the clock no less, and leaves the rest of a box of ammo to work any skills shown deficient. I Chose to work draws to a first hit on a 6" plate seven yards distant within 2 seconds to hope for an X ring rather than mere ten ring first centerpunch next time I run this test. Then switched to my .22 LCR and worked more of the same but varied target sizes from seven to fifteen yards and one-handed shooting at seven yards.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Fifty more rounds through the SCCY, today. All Geco FMJ.

Twenty-one in a modification of Claude Werner's Blackjack Drill. Shot it clean! One failure to extract. Going to finally clean and relube the thing to see if that helps.

Five in The Complete Combatant's 5x5 Challenge. Managed to do it from AIWB.

Ten in the 10 Yard Bullseye Drill. Clean but a hair over time.

Remaining fourteen split unevenly between two mags and shot as draws to first shot with a 2 second par. Four yards at an IALEFI Q target left by the local 5-0 using the head circle and inner chest circle. Reloaded when empty.

Unrelated, the IALEFI target was used. Whatever cop shot it scored 30/36 in their qualification run. I taped their hits and shot the qual with my 22 Long Rifle chambered Ruger LCR. Scored 36/36 and opted to take all 3 yard shots at the head.

MC Hawking
Apr 27, 2004

by VideoGames


Fun Shoe

Although I am not in need of a deep concealed carry sidearm, I just want to say I'm really appreciating the various drills outlined in this thread. I shoot 380 auto out of a CZ83 and while I like the low recoil, I never really got the hang of being precise. I think with some digging on these drills I might be able to put together something viable to be a better pistol shooter.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



In that case, I'll get more setailed about some of the drills listed:

L.A.P.D. Retired Officer Qualification - 10 shots at seven yards on a full silhouette target, untimed. Need 70% to break a lin on the silhouette to pass. This one is nice to play with and make your own. I like to shoot it in four timed strings. Draw to one shot, down to low-ready, up for two shots, back to low-ready, up for three shots, back to low-ready, and up for four shots. Or five shots, reload, five shots. Or add a dummy cartrdidge to a magazine to practice tap-rack-bang. I believe L.A.PD. uses a BT-5 target and it is nice. But I linked the BT-5/2 as the highest scoring zone is highlighted to give you a specific spot to aim for. Neat targets and only 50 cents a piece shipped when buying a 100 pack

Claude Werner's Blackjack Drill - Draw six circles on a target (back of a silhouette works well) and draw a center line across each one. Werner suggests a 6" to 8" circle. I personally trace a DVD kept in my range bag to scale it for myself. You can draw the center lines identically in all six circles or randomly cant it. Randomly mark the numbers 1-6 in half of each circle. Randomly mark 1-6 in the remaining half of each circle in a different color. Set the target between 3 and 5 yards, choose a color to engage, and load with a maximum 10 rounds with spare mags/speedloaders/whatever handy. Shoot all six of the semi-circles with the listed number of rounds from 1-6, reloading as necessary. If you miss a shot/s on a number, gind the same number in the oppsite color and make up the misses on it before contiuing to the next number. Engage the make-up number until you get the listed number of hits on it. Werner has a scoring outline but even just counting total number of shots fired is a good place to start with 21 being a clean run. I took 22 shots with my LCR as an example.

10-Yard Bullseye Drill - Set a B-8 repair center at ten yards and load with 10 rounds. From low-ready, fire ten shots within ten seconds. Score target. Goal is to work toward all shots in the black within time.

5x5 Challenge - 3.5"x5" target in landscape orientation at five yards. Draw and get five solid hits, no line-cutters, in five seconds. This one is not at all easy. Good test to see how you're doing. Also a good next step from the Werner-Hayes 5^5 (five shots into a 5" circle in 5 seconds from a ready position, repeated five times after first shooting five rounds slowfire to confirm sight regulation). I just use a 3"x5" index card for the challenge, by the way.

Ohio Police Handgun Qualification - Here's a link to the .pdf and it is a very well explained course of fire with generous par times for an intro to timed shooting. Also goes out to 50 feet (roughly 17 yards) to test some longer range shooting than most people do.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



My target description fo the Blackjack Drill os a mess, here's an Instagram post from Claude Werner showing it properly:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bkq8StFn8AH/?hl=en

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


Is it just me or does the LAPD one sound disturbingly easy if the goal is “hit somewhere on a full-sized silhouette, take your time”?

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Ever watch everyone else at a public range? Particularly with something like an LCP?

I ignored it for the same reason you question but noticed that a few trainers, most notably and openly Claude Werner, use it in their basic concealed carry classes. Seeing how some people play with the course of fire and target sizes finally got me to try it out. It's recordable, easy to administer with any gun, scored, shows that one can pass a qual for a government agency, and easily scaled for difficulty.

Get to pass it with a pocket rocket. Then clean it. Then tighten the scoring zone to the upper chest. Then the -0 zone. Then add a par time. Add ready positions, reloads, immediate action drills, varied strings of fire, holster work, headshots, Mozambique drills, shoot it one-handed, weak-handed, and all of that is perfectly kosher within the design parameters of the qual. It's handiness comes from its basic simplicity. You can give yourself a report card of any number of skills and decide what you need to work on.

I could decide to use my pocket snub and, say:

Draw to one shot, record time and value of hit.

Mozambique from draw, recorded.

Mozambique from low-ready while challenging target until the beep, recorded.

Draw to pair. Will get a click and have to reload before the second shot. Record.

Draw to single headshot.

Ten rounds fired. Two target zones used, two target transitions, one reload, draws, ready position, strings of three lengths. And the following recorded, five times to a first hit, reload speed, 2x Mozambique times, 4 split times, first hit on two different target sizes. All at a required and recorded accuracy standard. And can show that I can pass an agency qual. Turned something seemingly milquetoast into a pile of self-grading.

Yes, one could just step up to the line and shoot. But taking a pre-ordained course of fire and tweaking it as skill progresses is way easier and more approachable for novices and intermediates than curating their own range plans from scratch.

Edit: The person buying a bottom-shelf .380 is likely exactly the person for whom a first report card on a generous target with reasonable but lax enough acciracy standard is a very valuable how do you do when coming up to speed. Given the obvious budgetary constraints in effect, it'll help guide practice going forward without just wasting ammo which is spendy.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Sep 29, 2019

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22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


Fair enough. I’m at the point where I’m kind of coming to terms with my skill level, because I feel like I’m terrible but the fact is that if I take my time I’m average to above average in slow fire. Just horrible with recoil control for rapid fire. I could easily do 10/10 on a silhouette at 7 yards with a LCP (from experience) and the idea of that being a police qualification is another uncomfortable reminder of how lax the qualifications for police marksmanship are.

E: for the record by average I mean median, not mean. The mean accuracy is likely better because of the people that can drive nails with their Hammerlis or SVIs. I can just get 2.5” full magazine groups semi-consistently at 7 yards with a full sized or compact gun or ring an 8” gong about 50% of the time at 20 when I focus on technique.

22 Eargesplitten fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Sep 29, 2019

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