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Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



It's not a police qualification, though. It's a concealed carry qual for Joe Public who happens to be a retired cop. Originally to not get hosed up in old, broken age by familiar felons. Now to meet LEOSA standards. It's pretty average as CCL quals go.

You want a sad police qual, I hear Boston is notably pathetic but could be misinformed.

E: Looking for something else, tripped over this summary of The Mingle 2019. Pne of their instructional blocks used a modified L.A.P.D. retired officer qualification as a test. I found the following bit most interesting and am about to head to the range to play with some thoughts. "ALL 24 shooters PASSED the qual and 6 shooters passed with 100% accuracy!" Emphasis mine.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Sep 29, 2019

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Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Just odered some more factory ammo to continue this project. Two new loads to check out and one I want to properly vet.

Winchester NATO (White Box equivalent). See how the full metal jacket flat points run in the SCCY. Winchester White Box has done well by me in the past.

Geco 95 grain full metal jacket Waterproof. The gently caress is this? It's a couple dollars cheaper per box than their standard ball load. Gonna find out. If waterproof, how is it cheaper? How will the CPX-3 and EZ like it?

Winchester SXZ 95 grain jacketed hollowpoints. Looks like a different bullet than the Defend/PDX lines. Looked for gel tests and found nothing. May re-cast my clear gel block if I hit my head and decide to waste time I could spend skiing. More likely to run it into old work pant covered milk jugs. It's a very inexpensive load so I'm curious. Will see how the SCCY and EZ run it, what recoil is like, and if it at least looks promising enough in water to justify the expense and effort of gel.

For drills, still working on my plans. Gorillafritz recently linked Ed Head's Concealed-Carry Pistol Control Drill*:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2019/12/9/skills-check-concealed-carry-pistol-control-drill/

Could be fun to start there in a proper shot timer and see just how tight splits I can personally get with the EZ for fun. Could also compare the .22 snub to my SCCY out of curiosity. Also get my wife on something that has to go fast with a smaller than silhouette target but no pressure of a set par. I'll use the backside of a B-8 repair center with a traced line around the black for my target. Might only score hits to the 5.5" black. May score the whole sheet for hits and use black as a tie-breaker if I decide to use it as a pure speed exercise. Will see when the time comes. Could also be fun to run it with my 380 ACP carbine as well but definitely just scoring hits to black and possibly at doubled ranges.

Probably then shoot Ohio's police qual to knock the rust off at various ranges. Then take some decisional and thinking drills from Claude Werner's e-books. Likely his hostage rescue shot course of fire and a counting game. Finish up with a number of draws to single hit on a 6" steel plate.

Oh, I also plan to run the SXZ into milk jugs through my Hi-Point carbine, as well. If it looks promising there, will buy more to vet in the thing as any excuse to shoot Gus Gus is fine by me.

* Calls for a whopping fifteen rounds fired, takes place at three different ranges, has an extended strong-hand-only string to check grip/recoil control/sight tracking, and the ranges are reasonable on a thoughfully sized target with an open enough performance window to be useful at all skill levels.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Opened Claude Werner's Advanced Pistol Practice ebook and shot the two-target variant of his 12 Shot Drill at four yards for all eight stages. Four inch headboxes, by the way:

Left Head:



Right Head:



I'm really digging the way Winchester SXZ shoots. Anyway, 31 more rounds on the clock and zero new stoppages. Still love this SCCY. Also put 16 SXZ through the wife's EZ and they also seemed well behaved there.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Just wanted to say thanks for this kind of long form review. It's really impressive and interesting.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Hey Butch, I'd be interested in your response to this question -

The SCCY pistols have varied reviews across the internet and pistol magazines. I've read glowing reviews as well as reviews that saw the guns break or be totally unable to function reliably. What's your take on the really different experiences people are having with this line of pistols? Personally, I've read enough bad to put me off them. But, I also think highly of your very thorough system of using and reviewing firearms.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Machined steel guns at a Zamak pricepoint are going to be full of compromises. Some tweaks have been made since early models from what I have read but you still have a cheap gun and more lemons can be expected to go out the door than bigger names. Even considering the trip back to customer service, I'm really happy with my CPX-3. Enough so that the red dot equipped 9mm they released has me very curious.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Butch Cassidy posted:

Machined steel guns at a Zamak pricepoint are going to be full of compromises. Some tweaks have been made since early models from what I have read but you still have a cheap gun and more lemons can be expected to go out the door than bigger names. Even considering the trip back to customer service, I'm really happy with my CPX-3. Enough so that the red dot equipped 9mm they released has me very curious.

Would it be fair to say, "Good purchase if you rigorously test it first?"

Guns like that worry me, because I bet more are stuck in a pocket or purse than thoroughly tested. But, I'm a fan of HiPoint and other cheap tier guns so I can't complain too much.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Yes, that about sums it up.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Mark the calendar, a TFB comment that both uses Millennial as a reasonable descriptor rather than pejorative and doesn't suck

quote:

"They are going to sell a lot of these. It's true that some of these, mine included, had failure to feed issues but they are magazine induced. A quick call to SCCY and they sent me two new mags that has the gun running perfectly. I've since done some research that suggests a little polishing of the feed lips of the faulty mags fixes the problem. I'll give it a try when I get a chance. Until then the gun is running at 100% with the new mags.

Not going to lie, I really wish these red dot models had been available when I got mine. I may have to get another just for the red dot. For the money these guns are impossible to beat. The quality is really good. Much better than the price indicates.

There's really only one negative to the SCCY and it's the heavy trigger. If you're a millennial whose only ever fired striker fire guns it's probably going to send you into a tirade of expletives. However, if you're a shooter with some experience under your trigger finger you're going to recognize a standard double action pull. Not terrible in any sense, just your average DA trigger.

Personally it's not a big deal to me. I have lots of experience shooting revolvers in double action so I don't shrink into my turtleneck/shell when I have to shoot my SCCY. It's easy to tell those with DA experience from those who've only ever fired striker fire guns when reading or watching SCCY reviews. That said, it would be great if SCCY could shave some weight off the pull. There are some after market trigger kits available that do just that but I haven't found any real reviews of them so I don't know if reliability suffers. Guess I'll have to shake the change out of the furniture and see if I can gather enough up for one of these kits and see for myself.

I'd love to have a Sig P365 or even a Beretta PX4 Storm subcompact but these drat medical bills eat every spare cent and more each month. The SCCY was my only option at the end of the day. As is the case for a lot of people in America. With the rising cost of just being alive in the US continually outpacing many people's ability to afford it(especially health care), options like the SCCY have become necessary for self defense. They aren't glamorous but they do the job so if you're disparaging them at least be thankful that you are in a position to do so."

Regarding SCCY's new red dot equipped 9mm CPX-1 and CPX-2, emphasis mine.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




I really hope they can iron out a lot of the feeding issues with the guns out o the box. I know you could say that about a lot of guns, but I'm concerned these will be purchased and tucked away. I'm not sure I think people on that tight of a budget are going to be able to spend much cash getting them really vetted at a range. I'm not sure I'd recommend them, but I'd have to actually spend some time with one first.

Just going to say this again - I love cheap guns. But I also think more goes into a good cheap gun than saying, "Make sure you put 500 rounds through it before you need it."

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Shot the Kansas CPOST handgun qualification clean with my CPX-3. It was "modified" in effect but not actually changing any of the standards. All shots within the bottle count same so I ran both reps of the the 1.5-3 yard stage as Mozambiques, both reps of the third 7 yard stage as Mozambiques, and shot the 25 yard stages first so I could mark hits and be accountable for misses rather than guess within a chewed-up center. Did use a target acceptable to the state of Kansas:



50/50 100% as-scored against the 35/50 70% minimum requirement. Landed 3/4 of my headshots withing my 3"x5" aiming point (let front sight wander high on a 7 yarder). Dropped no shots outside the 8" grey ring in stages <25 yards. Landed half the 25 yard shots within the ring. Crammed 37/46 center-of-mass aimed shots within the 6" white circle I personally prefer to tag. So 38/50 76% passing run if scored by my personal ideal. All shots well within par times, by the way.

All ammunition was from a single box of Winchester Service Grade 95 grain full metal jacket flat point. Unsure if load is made to different specs/tolerances than White Box or just repackaged. Zero failures at any rate. Gun was carried in my homeroll kydex AIWB under a fleece vest. Used the flush floorplates for all but the last ten shots fired. Sloppy 25 yard hits all on me mainlining coffee rather than my usual tea and having my head up my rear end about skipping a ski day for this rather than the gun or ammo.

Given that the most demanding scored course of fire 99.9% of owners would shoot with this little cheapie is a state concealed carry qualification, the gun wouldn't be any detriment assuming it was vetted before bringing along. Reloaded the SCCY 10+1, holstered, dumped the carry load ouf of my pocketed LCR, and shot a timed drill against the 2" circles #1, 3, 4, and 6. Then shot a cylinder of ball and dummy at 2" circles A, B, and the accompanying 1" squares from 5 yards. One shot at a square freestyle, spin cylinder, one shot strong-hand-only at a circle, spin cylinder, one shot weak-hand-only at the other circle, spin cylinder, one shot two-handed support side at the remaining square, spin cylinder, repeat flow for remaining four cartridges. Been neglecting WHO shooting so it was nice.

Have a renewed itch to revisit my cheap wheelgun idea which had been a spectacular failure with the clapped-out Rossi. After I get out from under missed work and vet bill from one of the cats being put down due to cancer, will pick up a steel-framed 2" Taurus 856 with spurless hammer in either black or stainless finish.

Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000



I thought of this thread when I saw that Sccy has a 9mm subcompact that comes installed with a red dot for $390.00 MSRP coming out. Seems like a good value for people that want a red dot carry pistol

Edit: 50% within an 8" circle at 25 yards is really impressive, let alone with a compact carry pistol. I really like the drills in this thread.

Edit again: If you want another police test, this one is used by the Arizona police and can be done with a single silhouette target. I was talking to one of the ROs at the big, fancy new-ish indoor range I shoot at and he said there was some drama when their head firearms instructor couldn't pass it. The same guy that taught my CCW class. :/ He was a huge blowhard so it's pretty funny to me. Something funny to think about if you shoot the qual.

Trillhouse fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jan 26, 2020

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Trillhouse posted:

If you want another police test, this one is used by the Arizona police and can be done with a single silhouette target. I was talking to one of the ROs at the big, fancy new-ish indoor range I shoot at and he said there was some drama when their head firearms instructor couldn't pass it. The same guy that taught my CCW class. :/ He was a huge blowhard so it's pretty funny to me. Something funny to think about if you shoot the qual.

I'd love to see the look on Patrolman Fife's face when this string comes up, "Support hand only - fire three rounds as follows: place the loaded weapon in the Support hand and assume ready position. On command, take a lateral step to the left or right, as directed, and fire two rounds center of mass, one round to head, in four seconds."

Gonna see if I can pass the reload stages with my LCR the next time it seems I'll have the range to myself for a while. Not buying the official target so will just trace my QIT-99 stencil as it seems close enough.

Shooting Blanks
Jun 6, 2007

Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade





Butch Cassidy posted:

Machined steel guns at a Zamak pricepoint are going to be full of compromises. Some tweaks have been made since early models from what I have read but you still have a cheap gun and more lemons can be expected to go out the door than bigger names. Even considering the trip back to customer service, I'm really happy with my CPX-3. Enough so that the red dot equipped 9mm they released has me very curious.

A factory red dot equipped sub-compact just seems weird to me. There's nothing wrong with it, I just...can't wrap my head around it.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


It's weird, but tbh it really does solve the biggest practical problem with a subcompact: sight radius. 1-2 inches of rifling isn't why people can't hit poo poo with them, it's sight radius (okay also having less to grip onto for rapid fire). A red dot on a sccy works just like a red dot on a competition gun, albeit the carry sized red dot is going to have a smaller window and therefore have a harder time getting the dot in view on draw than the DPPs and other giant microdots you see on competition pistols.

Strayer
May 19, 2006



The big thing I wonder about is the durability of the mrds. I've not handled a Crimson Trace RDS yet, but current vortex MRDSes are almost hilariously fragile, and the crimson Trace unit looks similarly designed. Like, fall off a table and the hood is smashed and the glass is gone kind of fragility.

I get that a bottom budget gun isn't going to have the mainline optics, but I worry about it insofar that it is marketed as a carry gun.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




SCCY provides a very affordable option which I like. But, these things concern me -

- They seem to have a lot of issues out of the box.
- Ruger makes LCP and variants for close to the same price, if not sometimes cheaper
- A lot of people carry these for EDC self defense. Red dot technology on pistols is a pretty new thing to be sold as standard options on a pistol. If SCCY is an early adopter at having red dots shipping on pistols, could you trust it to work? Could you also trust people to learn how to use them?

Just so I'm being fair, my purple Ruger LCP was such a limit they had to swap out the entire slide assembly. Everyone has lemons. SCCY, from reading reviews and forums, seems to have a lot.

Strayer
May 19, 2006



Fwiw, new shooters learning on an RDS equipped pistol (or firearm in general) seem to learn faster and more effectively versus teaching on irons. Basically, the dot cuts out some of the complications with sighting(specifically three planes of focus) and the dot also gives very good and clear feedback. Most of the issues with learning red dot comes entirely from people who have developed muscle memory with iron sighted pistols. They complain of it being slow, because they have to find the dot, which is caused by muscle memory causing them to punch to gun out to where the irons would have been. It's pretty easily resolved with like a weekend of dry fire. I firmly believe we'll start seeing red dot pistols as the standard within the decade.

But, yeah, any decent mrds is going to cost at least as much as, if not more than, any SCCY pistol.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Strayer posted:

Fwiw, new shooters learning on an RDS equipped pistol (or firearm in general) seem to learn faster and more effectively versus teaching on irons. Basically, the dot cuts out some of the complications with sighting(specifically three planes of focus) and the dot also gives very good and clear feedback. Most of the issues with learning red dot comes entirely from people who have developed muscle memory with iron sighted pistols. They complain of it being slow, because they have to find the dot, which is caused by muscle memory causing them to punch to gun out to where the irons would have been. It's pretty easily resolved with like a weekend of dry fire. I firmly believe we'll start seeing red dot pistols as the standard within the decade.

But, yeah, any decent mrds is going to cost at least as much as, if not more than, any SCCY pistol.

I need an RDS equipped pistol to play with for sure. I don't have much rifle experience and that's the only time I've used one. That's really cool information and thanks for sharing.

If SCCY somehow knocks this out of the park, awesome. I just worry about this being a pistol for people who cannot afford to go send 500 rounds down the pipe and address issues that are seeming to crop up.

Strayer
May 19, 2006



Right now, the holosun 407 is the way to go, imo. 240ish, uses the rmr footprint. Plenty durable and is feature rich. Holosun in general has been knocking the hell out of all of the hobbyist/enthusiast RDS makers. Their optics are legit quality for hobbyist prices. I am super interested in their upcoming 508k, a micro sight designed to mount on 365s and Hellcats and such. Uses the shield rms footprint, but I fully expect it to outperform the shield rms and the Romeo Zero on every possible way.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



Looking to see if anyone on the internet admits to carrying a 380 Shield EZ, found this review[/b] and a part struck me:

"...It’s a little presumptuous to say things like this gun is great for women or old guys with arthritis that can’t button their shirt but want to defend themselves. Some old guys carry a .45 because they always have and they still have that “tupperware” mentality about polymer pistols. It also goes without saying there are more than a few women who can easily outshoot me with all sorts of calibers. I think a more apt placement is as a firearm designed for self-defense that is concealable, still easy to manipulate, and easy to control recoil.

Pretty much everyone can use a firearm that falls into those categories: concealable, easy to manipulate, controllable recoil, and a decent-ish caliber for defensive situations. That is why Smith & Wesson's M&P Shield 380 EZ is a great pistol to arrive during a period when people are increasingly interested in concealed carry...Way to [sic] often do people equate what works for them as being the sole answer for the rest of the shooting community..."


Emphasis mine.

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Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000



Butch Cassidy posted:

I'd love to see the look on Patrolman Fife's face when this string comes up, "Support hand only - fire three rounds as follows: place the loaded weapon in the Support hand and assume ready position. On command, take a lateral step to the left or right, as directed, and fire two rounds center of mass, one round to head, in four seconds."

Gonna see if I can pass the reload stages with my LCR the next time it seems I'll have the range to myself for a while. Not buying the official target so will just trace my QIT-99 stencil as it seems close enough.

I ended up doing this test, not on the official target but on the one the range uses to test instructors internally. Here is the result

It’s not too bad. I rushed the 25 yard shots, 14 seconds is a lot longer than I thought, and yeah the offhand portion led to me shanking the headshot, but it was pretty fun. I also got certified to draw from a holster at my range, and this was my first time drawing with live ammo.

If I do it again, I’m also going to make a short version of the instructions. I spent too long hunched over the phone reading the pdf. I’m just going to make a list with “off-hand, from ready, 2-body, 1 head. 4 seconds” for each step.

Trillhouse fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Feb 1, 2020

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