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X-O posted:Yeah I think Wayne Williams probably at least did commit the two murders that he was sentenced for. And I think there was something maybe to the kids as well. Just listening to the podcast and the interviews with both him and even some people who claimed he tried to get them into his car paints a picture of a really shady guy up to no good if nothing else when it comes to the younger kids. I think the fiber and blood evidence (which isn't even touched on in Mindhunter) points to him for the murders they got him on. They have human and dog mitochondrial DNA on one of the children at least.
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Aug 21, 2019 23:33
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He most likely did a bunch of them. Seems they threw some in just to clear the books. I read that one of the cases they were fairly certain it was a violent stepdad who killed the kid. The DNA stuff is a damning, but I'm skeptical of the fiber stuff since it's more or less junk science. I understand the argument that maybe the murders stopped to an extent after he was caught, but they also couldn't find enough evidence to even try him for one of the child murders. That's fairly telling.
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Aug 21, 2019 23:47
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The Charles Manson interview loving owned A total  and  moment
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Aug 22, 2019 16:00
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I’m so over everything Charlie Manson but god drat that guy owned the poo poo out of it.
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Aug 23, 2019 03:25
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Jerusalem posted:Holy poo poo that was Dewey Crowe? That was my reaction just now too. I never would have figured that out myself. Holy crap, Dewey! I knew the guy had acting chops from his time on Justified, but this was so completely different. Anyway, great season overall and I'm bummed it's over now. Hope we won't have to wait two years for season 3 :-/ Also, was I the only one who felt (episode 7 spoilers) the mother of the murdered child coming over to make a big deal about how she forgives Brian and Nancy was kind of selfish and hosed up? Forgive Nancy for what? Having the nerve to be Brian's mother? Like thanks for dumping this poo poo on someone who hasn't done anything wrong and making them feel like they had. exmarx posted:tbh she was already a piece of poo poo in season 1 for saying they shouldn't hire jim because having a black guy would ruin their interview data I really liked Jim's character arc in season 2. Spoilers follow, naturally. Without Jim the whole investigation would've been hosed (even moreso than it was already). He was the one who did the leg work, discovered connections between the kids, interviewed neighbours, followed the killer's dad to the airport. Everyone else was too wrapped up in their own ideas to put in the ground level work. He also showed a knack for interviewing subjects, and the interview he did with Holden would've been once again a complete loving miss if he hadn't done the proper background work to figure out a way to bridge the gap while Holden was too busy thinking the killer was a moron they couldn't learn anything from. I really hope he comes back in season 3 in a big role because the guy owned. But at the same time I have a feeling he won't, because he has the sheer audacity to be BLACK. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Aug 23, 2019 |
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Aug 23, 2019 08:54
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Yeah Jim was awesome, he’s FBI right? Would be cool if he joined the team. He seemed to slide right into the role when interviewing. I really like this show, it’s not even edge of your seat but I feel like there are no boring moments. Show always has my complete attention, both seasons so far.
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Aug 23, 2019 15:05
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Yeah, Jim is FBI. I think it was to show how much better of a fit Jim would have been than Greg. I have a feeling he'll be a major part of the team next season.
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Aug 23, 2019 15:10
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He was definitely the standout character of the season(well, of the non-serial killers) and if he isn't a main player going forward then it's a major misstep. Of course, with Netflix who knows, they may already have decided to cancel the show.
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Aug 23, 2019 15:14
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This show is so loving good.
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Aug 23, 2019 20:33
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veni veni veni posted:This show is so loving good. Fincher is easily one of the top 5 filmmakers alive today, and he’s planning to do 5 seasons of this. 
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Aug 23, 2019 21:14
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Holy poo poo, I started watching Barry today, and one of the two lazy computer techs in Episode 2 seemed to have a familiar voice, and it took me a while to realize he's KEMPER. On a whole other topic, are there any shows out there that have a similar mood and style as Mindhunter? I'm gonna rewatch Zodiac tomorrow, but I need more. MORE.
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Aug 23, 2019 22:18
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Der Shovel posted:Holy poo poo, I started watching Barry today, and one of the two lazy computer techs in Episode 2 seemed to have a familiar voice, and it took me a while to realize he's KEMPER. Manhunt: Unabomber was pretty good and along similar lines as this if you've not seen it
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Aug 23, 2019 22:40
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Chalks posted:Manhunt: Unabomber was pretty good and along similar lines as this if you've not seen it Agreed. Not the same as this but it's real good.
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Aug 23, 2019 23:12
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Finished Season 2. Fincher is so good.
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Aug 24, 2019 00:19
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Der Shovel posted:Holy poo poo, I started watching Barry today, and one of the two lazy computer techs in Episode 2 seemed to have a familiar voice, and it took me a while to realize he's KEMPER. Holy poo poo, I watched Barry and never picked up on this at all.
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Aug 24, 2019 00:54
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Legitimately do not get the criticism of the Tench family subplot. The uncertainty Tench feels towards his son is directly tied to the uncertainty of the Manson murders and the Atlanta child murders. It's as big a part of the season's overarching theme that their methods don't really work. Likewise, Carr slowly becoming unhinged was also very compelling. Dropping Holden's anxiety subplot was probably the only misstep for me. God I hope I don't have to wait 2 more years...
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Aug 24, 2019 01:45
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mr. unhsib posted:Dropping Holden's anxiety subplot was probably the only misstep for me. I know the characters on the show are completely divorced from the real people they're based on, but I wonder if this will be the only reference to Douglas's real near fatal health crisis from about this time.
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Aug 24, 2019 02:20
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They didn't drop the anxiety, you see him taking valium every once in awhile to deal with it. As for the Tench, I really like the guy hated the family stuff.
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Aug 24, 2019 09:27
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Wtf I don't think Tench hated his family.
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Aug 24, 2019 10:42
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I think they mean they really like Tench's character, but that they weren't similarly engaged with his scenes with his family.
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Aug 24, 2019 11:27
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Well, even if it arose from one poster misunderstanding another, I think there's something to glean from the idea that Bill Tench does, in fact, hate his family on some level. Or at the very least, feels a certain degree of resentment. To fully understand what's going on with... well, all the relationships between male and female characters on this show, I think it's important to re-acquaint yourself with 'Women's Lib", aka the Women's Liberation Movement. Those of us born in the mid-80's and onward have a limited degree of familiarity with the massive strides made in gender equality from about the mid-'60s through to the mid-'80s. There were a lot of changes I'm not familiar with. Pertinent to this show, and this subject, is the role that women are generally expected by everyone to play in heterosexual relationships and marriages. Bill is smart, but he's also a very traditional from a very traditional generation. Men went out and worked, and the wives stayed home to raise the kids and have dinner ready on time and the whole nine yards; when Bill comes home, he expects his wife and child to basically take care of him in every possible way, and make his home life and easy and restful as possible, especially given his stressful job. And of course, the man made the final decision on everything. Bill is still living in this world, or trying to. And he attempts to "make the decision" several times. But his wife, who is clearly an intelligent and fairly independent woman, no doubt has had enough of this poo poo but doesn't quite have it in her to confront Bill. I think that what's empowering her to take the initiative and move out definitely is meant to be read as a sign of real social change when it comes to what the family unit even is. One of the aspects of their profiling (which will continue to be an aspect of it for too loving long) has to do with "sick" people being more likely to come from "broken or unstable" home situations. With Bill, he knows in his guts that he's deluding the hell out of himself, and cannot admit both because a certain degree of "doublethink", or holding multiple beliefs that are inherently contradictory, is a necessary part of succeeding at the FBI. So, does Bill hate his family? Well, I'm sticking with deep resentment. I think Bill feels like he failed his family at least as much as they failed to be there for him, from his point of view. Also, on a quick limited rewatch I found the stuff with Bill's family MUCH better when you are less impatient to get to the aspects of the show that are a bit more faster-paced.
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Aug 24, 2019 12:41
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Oh and one other thing, too... I have heard several people describe Mindhunter Season 2 as ending on a "cliffhanger" in several articles and reviews- are you loving kidding me?! I can hardly think of another major ongoing series that wrapped things up more thoroughly than Mindhunter did this season. Hell, I have seen MANY intended series finales meant to wrap up the entire show that ended on WAYYYY bigger cliffhangers. There was barely any cliff to hang on, and there was absolutely nothing remotely unexpected about the end of this season - that was practically the point, the inevitability of it all. Atlanta and the FBI were both going home and declaring victory despite justice NOT being properly served, and Bill's wife and son left him, which most of us definitely expected. They even had title cards summing up the eventualities of the Atlanta case. Sorry, this is just a big pet peeve of mine, like... Every entertainment writer is so lazy they probably write up an article about a series finale without even watching it, and just assume it was a cliffhanger. Bothers me. fake edit: I also would kinda recommend Manhunt: Unabomber. It is NOT mindhunter, and doesn't have the precision and film-like photography and so forth. But it is a very interesting and well-made show about a very interesting subject. Also, we don't get many "period pieces" from the mid-late '90s, and it's a time period I'm extremely fascinated by, in a way What makes it worth watching, above all else, is how loving MAGNIFICENT Paul Bettany is as Ted Kaczynski. He just totally owns every single scene he's in, and is positively magnetic. He's always had these hollow cheeks with those intense deep-set eyes, and it works perfectly here - except no matter how they try to make him seem gross and dirty, he still looks too pretty. Also, Mark Duplass plays his brother and steals an entire episode in the process, he's so freaking talented and chameleon-like. Sam Worthington is (in my opinion) very mediocre and does a DEEPLY embarrassingly bad American accent. It might not have been so much of an issue, but a big plot point is his character being from Philadelphia and having a Philly accent - which isn't a very well-defined accent, you can't exactly tell someone is from Philly by the way they talk the same way as someone from Boston or NYC. But anyway, it's just... really bizarre when the basis of a ton of his work is supposed to be inspired by his accent and his accent sounds awful and nothing like it's supposed to  Kinda minor, ultimately, though, as a complaint.
kaworu fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Aug 24, 2019 |
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Aug 24, 2019 13:02
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I liked the new season and, as somebody who's not well versed in any of this stuff, have enjoyed reading the takes by all the true crime aficionados ITT. The most interesting tension that sticks out for me is the question of whether or not the methods being developed by Ford/Tench/Carr are ultimately getting a favorable portrayal. To me it's not glaringly obvious that they aren't (though clearly the opposite isn't purely true either). I can see how the slow build of the BTK Killer arc is meant to eventually highlight the shortcomings of these profiling techniques, but at the same time the work being done is new, interesting and augments understandings of criminal psychology, even if the findings overlook the fact that some of these killers can actually hold down a day job, etc. Overall I think the showrunners have done a really good job of actually not taking a heavyhanded stance one way or the other and just letting the weirdness of the territory do the talking.
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Aug 24, 2019 13:15
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I've mentioned it before but season 1 did a good job of showing Tench trying his best to remind Ford that while his profiles were all about probabilities, the effective ones were still based on actual police-work of evidence gathering, interviews, joining the dots etc. Ford's actual strengths came via his interview techniques, which required the evidence base in order to work, but he continued to consider his successes as coming on the basis of his profiling alone. In this season we see multiple times not just Tench and Carr pushing him not to ignore avenues of investigation because he's already decided on his profile, but Barney as well who is an outsider who put a lot of stock initially into Holden's work. At one point he flat-out asks Ford how many checkboxes on his profile would need to be filled out before he would consider somebody "worth" investigating, and asks him what he would have done if they'd heard that splash on the bridge, blocked the car.... and a white guy had gotten out instead of Wayne Williams. The recurring scenes with the BTK, as noted, are seemingly to continually remind the viewer that the entire process these guys are building ultimately completely failed to predict or accurately model the actual killer, who was only caught because he wanted to show off and took them at their word when they said they couldn't get identifying marks from a floppy disc if he sent them one. Edit: Which reminds me of one of my favorite bits in season 2: "But you sent it on Army Stationary. Weren't you concerned they'd use it to track you?" "Nah, I took care of that in the letter." "Ah yes. You wrote "don't try to find me because of the Army Stationary, I could have got that from anywhere." Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Aug 24, 2019 |
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Aug 24, 2019 14:30
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Concerning all the Tench family stuff the only thing I disliked about was his wife. I get it's how one should act given the peroid and situation but just seemed too much and time could spent more on the son and Tench or just the season in general. kaworu posted:
Yea i second that. We don't get much peroid pieces like these shows and it's such a difference pace from the current shows with all the tech doing the work. He did an amazing portyal of Kaczynski. He is exactly how I picture the man (I know he is alive and what not).
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Aug 24, 2019 16:31
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so in the last episode they mention that a bunch of photos were removed from evidence and the stadium house and brick house and how those were never looked into like at all. Is the implication that there were more people involved in the deaths and they just pushed it all under the rug because politics or someone in power was involved? A cop would've had to remove all the other photos right?
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Aug 24, 2019 17:59
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I feel like Tench’s wife is gonna get that kid taken away by the social worker if she just up roots him and leaves the husband without so much as a phone call. It’s gonna make them both seem really lovely and unstable because she’ll hbe to explain why she did this seemingly irrational thing by telling them all the stuff Bill inadvertently brings home from work. Yeah the family stuff might not be as riveting as Kempers interviews but it’s still stuff that informs our characters, I don’t get people who just skip things like that 🤷🏻♂️
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Aug 24, 2019 19:40
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Doorknob Slobber posted:so in the last episode they mention that a bunch of photos were removed from evidence and the stadium house and brick house and how those were never looked into like at all. Is the implication that there were more people involved in the deaths and they just pushed it all under the rug because politics or someone in power was involved? A cop would've had to remove all the other photos right? Wayne Williams' dad was a crime scene photographer and had been working at the crime scene the day they found the stash of poloroids, he could have been the one to make some of those photos dissapear. It is also definitely possible that a cop took them. iirc the photos were described in crime scene documents but never got logged into evidence in the first place.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:14
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Filthy Hans posted:Wayne Williams' dad was a crime scene photographer and had been working at the crime scene the day they found the stash of poloroids, he could have been the one to make some of those photos dissapear. It is also definitely possible that a cop took them. iirc the photos were described in crime scene documents but never got logged into evidence in the first place. Yeah there's a lot of stuff they didn't cover in the series that you can file under either "strange coincidence" or "even more circumstantial evidence" depending on how you feel about Wayne Williams and his involvement. And a number of things involving his father which are never even touched on in the series.
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Aug 25, 2019 02:03
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X-O posted:Yeah there's a lot of stuff they didn't cover in the series that you can file under either "strange coincidence" or "even more circumstantial evidence" depending on how you feel about Wayne Williams and his involvement. And a number of things involving his father which are never even touched on in the series. im listening to the podcast mentioned earlier and wow, i wish they'd touched on some of this stuff more than some of the family or personal stuff holy poo poo. like homer being involved in the manhattan project jesus christ what madness Doorknob Slobber fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Aug 25, 2019 02:18
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I’m all good with any tench scenes cause I love the actor. All I ever remember him from is “in life he has no name, but in death, his name is Robert Paulson” Dude also kills it in every scene he’s in, like what has Hollywood been doing with this dude for my whole life? Is he prominent in anything else?
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Aug 25, 2019 04:17
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Harton posted:I’m all good with any tench scenes cause I love the actor. I knew not looking things up would bit me in the rear end.
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Aug 25, 2019 05:11
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Seriously though, this one scene from god know how long ago like branded this guy in my memory until the first season of this show. Just a badass looking dude, I wanna be his friend.
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Aug 25, 2019 05:24
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Harton posted:Seriously though, this one scene from god know how long ago like branded this guy in my memory until the first season of this show. Just a badass looking dude, I wanna be his friend. Omg. I just looked at his IMDb page and he was the hot dude with long hair in Creepshow 2 
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Aug 25, 2019 07:17
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Mindhunter Season 2 - Get your dick out to prove you're not a cop.
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Aug 25, 2019 09:46
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Harton posted:Seriously though, this one scene from god know how long ago like branded this guy in my memory until the first season of this show. Just a badass looking dude, I wanna be his friend. check him out in shot caller, he plays an aryan brotherhood honcho
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Aug 25, 2019 10:39
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algebra testes posted:Mindhunter Season 2 - Get your dick out to prove you're not a cop. Oh God I loved that it wasn't until much later in the season that we find out the tests Holden performed were in Baltimore, not Atlanta and he just assumed any black neighborhood in any city was interchangeable for the purposes of his experiment until Barney told him all the reasons why that loving stupid.
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Aug 25, 2019 11:42
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Tench's kid wasn't a bad story, but I feel like they tread the same ground over and over without giving us any real new developments or resolution to it. The ice cream scene was great, but it was the only tangible pay-off to that relationship, and yeah I realize that a some of the pay-off was in the "job" scenes like Manson et al as well, but it often felt forced in the same way the relationship stuff from the first season did, and by the end it just essentially dies on the way back to its home planet. That said, it was much better than the dreck with Holden's girlfriend, but it was still kind of a hamfisted way to tie home life stuff into the job stuff in a way that touched upon some themes relating to nature vs. nurture and serial killers but in the end just kind of floundered and didn't go anywhere that interesting, in my opinion. Same goes for the Wendy plot - it wasn't bad and definitely led to some good scenes, but I would rather have given that character something to do with the thing that the show actually wanted to spend its time on.
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Aug 25, 2019 11:52
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The show is really just at its best and in its element when we see the characters at work. To me, the top scenes of the season were all essentially interviews that were being conducted. Bill researching Son of Sam and speaking to Kevin Bright might have made Episode 2 the best one of the season, I'm not even sure. I almost wish they had spent the whole season on BTK and interviews rather than focusing on Atlanta, if only because there's something... fascinating and satisfyingly unusual about being able to ask questions to various incarnations of what we might term "pure evil." Hell, Kemper is really the perfect example, his ability to be profoundly objective and articulate in his own appraisal and analysis of his unspeakably horrifying behavior is inherently very, very intriguing. It's utterly fascinating for us to watch, because most of us have a difficult time truly understanding that many people who are mentally ill are perfectly capable of being dispassionate and objective about behavior of theirs which might be deeply unethical and/or entirely irrational. It's definitely quite apropos that Kemper is the one to point out that their subject base might be skewed, since they were all dumb enough to get caught - and with Kemper, he might never have been caught if he hadn't turned himself even, which again shows that he wasn't quite a 'perfect' sociopath like, say, BTK (who clearly never felt the tiniest iota of remorse or regret not did he ever make committed efforts to stop). Kemper, in his own narcissistic way, was seeking an end to the killings. It's actually quite interesting; when you watch the real video interviews of Kemper that much of his Mindhunter dialogue in the interviews is lifted from (they're on youtube) he does get emotional at times - especially when talking about the murder of his mother - he is crying. I know, he could be faking and psychopaths are very manipulative, but still. It's not as if he was trying to act remorseful about the murders, or crying because he regretted them - in my view, he was crying because he still was feeling betrayed and hurt and rejected by his mother - again, it may be narcissistic in nature but they're still real feelings, not manufactured ones. Compare the way Kemper talks about his crime as opposed to the way BTK did, and I think there's a pretty big apparent difference. Watching that BTK confession, I never got the sense that he had one inkling of regret or remorse or compassion, rather it seemed like he was excitedly getting off - constantly skipping ahead past the judge's questions to unasked details from a separate killing. Like when the judge is questioning him about killing Joseph Otero, BTK keeps trying to skip past to talk about murdering the 11-year-old girl in the basement, and the judge has to like drag him back to details of how he killed Mr. Otero and his son. The whole confession is just.... It's really something, I know people have mentioned it before, but it's just not something that happens too often. A guy who looks and sounds like a Midwestern Lutheran minister (because he is) talking matter-of-factly about committing absolutely horrific crimes. It's just crazy-making. I've never been able to watch it all, I keep getting so disgusted and turning it off.
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Aug 25, 2019 16:14
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remigious posted:Omg. I just looked at his IMDb page and he was the hot dude with long hair in Creepshow 2 Dude. There is not a more appropriate emoji for what you just did to my brain. I was like... “the dude with the long hair? Certainly not from the Native American Bit.... WTF!!!!!”
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Aug 26, 2019 05:09
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