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im depressed lol posted:Genuinely confused by the discussion in this thread, so I went to Wikipedia for a quick episode summary in case I missed something major when loving with my phone or whatever.
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Dec 27, 2019 23:29
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DaveKap posted:That's a better ending than Part 2. 
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Dec 27, 2019 23:45
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What the gently caress? No it wouldn't have been. You're all whinging about unexplained mysteries and ambiguity and that is the most radically ambiguous place it could have ended. Did anything really happen? Did the machine work? Which one is the real Elliot? Totally disingenuous. It would have been universally reviled.
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Dec 28, 2019 00:11
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Chadzok posted:What the gently caress? No it wouldn't have been. You're all whinging about unexplained mysteries and ambiguity and that is the most radically ambiguous place it could have ended. Did anything really happen? Did the machine work? Which one is the real Elliot? At least it's interesting, unlike 'actually Elliot isn't Elliot, just a member of the council of Elliots we didn't know existed. Mind blown yet?' Like United States of Tara was a decent show, but it wasn't the show i wanted this one to end as. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 00:16
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sticklefifer posted:Did all of you thinking Elliot and Mastermind looked like different people miss the whole scene where they met each other and Elliot was freaking out that they looked exactly the same? Or literally any scene where Mastermind sees a picture of Elliot in the real world and assumes it's himself? You could also throw something in there about Prime realizing that Mastermind "looks like my drawings!" but it's easier to leave that out since it comes after he says "you look like me!" both of which are viable in a "that isn't Prime, that's an NPC" environment. sticklefifer posted:So how much did Lost break your brain? Because you're making that comparison SO hard, but if you're using it as the metric for all other confusing serialized shows, hell, Lynch did that poo poo with Twin Peaks way before. Lost actually had pretty steady explanations or inferences when you weren't waiting for weeks between episodes. I've done a full binge rewatch and a chronological edit rewatch, both years apart, and there are answers to most of the questions people had. I still think people just didn't it, or made the wrong interpretations a lot of the time. 1: Lynch has built up enough clout that you know you're going into his work without an explanation. You know to enjoy it for being weird for weird's sake, which is a reason why Lynch isn't universally celebrated. I totally get why people could hate his works because being weird for weird's sake can not be a good thing. I, however, enjoy his work and think the comparison between him and anything Lost-like is demeaning to Lynch. The guy does it because it's entertaining. Other media tends to do it just to create buzz. Lynch feels and acts genuine. Other media doesn't. 2: Since Lost finished, I have never heard anyone from either side of the "I love Lost"/"I hate Lost" fence describe Lost the way you've described it here. However, the fact you watched a "chronological edit rewatch" does indicate a couple of things to me. You've either fallen into the sunken cost fallacy of enjoying Lost or you're a die-hard fan of a show that was crafted meticulously enough to cleverly tell a story that only works after the show is over and you edit the run order. For the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to say it's the latter which just leads to an argument about whether or not building a show like that is secret genius or openly stupid. You already know which side I'd argue so let's just drop it there. I have nothing against Lost fans, I have nothing against Lost, I'm just using it as the word/show which defines a mystery box that asks questions which never get answered. If you have a better show that fits this description which is universally known for doing exactly that, by all means I'll take it. But it's not Twin Peaks. It's not anything by Lynch. Fringe maybe? I wouldn't know, it doesn't get nearly as much hate as Lost ever did. Chadzok posted:I might respond to you in more detail later since I'm bullish on Mr. Robot's place in TV's greatest hits, but just lol if you think Watchmen finished stronger than Mr. Robot. Watchmen totally shat the bed with the last two episodes. Strange Matter posted:What Mr. Robot does correctly is that the reality of the show's world remains largely intact by the end, since we never get to see if Whiterose's machine actually works. Maybe it does, but that's not the point since Elliot and the rest of the principle cast rejects the hope that it offers, so even if it did work they would continue to try and stop it. It teases us with the possibility of full science-fiction, just like BSG teased that there would be some reconciliation of the show's mystical elements with harder SF elements, but wisely avoids compromising itself where BSG failed. Chadzok posted:This is the main counter to DaveKap's use of Lost as a comparison to this show To put it in another term related to what I've written previously in this post, the breadcrumbs and poor motives were put in place to make the show grow buzz and not in order to have an interestingly written resolution. To me, that's bad faith writing. It turns entertainment into pure trickery. It shows the possibility for intrigue but ends up as nothing. It's not being mad at being tricked; I wasn't mad Mr. Robot was a separate identity, I wasn't mad Elliot was in prison. It's just being mad at interesting ideas completely disappearing for the sake of moving the story along and getting ratings. One last time, it was likely all filler for a TV series that should have either stayed at 2-3 seasons or stayed a movie. And although I've made the joke that cutting off the Part 2 would've made for a better ending, I actually genuinely think the Mastermind vs Prime idea was a decent, intriguing, interesting twist on the whole thing. I just think getting there via alternate dimension hints going unanswered was poorly executed. Strange Matter posted:The problem with Lost was not that it did not explain itself. The problem was that it explicitly outlined what was happening and people just didn't like it. Lost did not finish on an ambiguous note. It finished on "Everything you saw happened, including all the sci-fi and fantasy, and then they all met up in the afterlife." Strange Matter posted:If the machine is running and is fully functional, WR's suicide makes no sense Edit: Chadzok posted:What the gently caress? No it wouldn't have been. You're all whinging about unexplained mysteries and ambiguity and that is the most radically ambiguous place it could have ended. Did anything really happen? Did the machine work? Which one is the real Elliot? Something I keep forgetting to post here and will now post! Hey! Go watch that dream withdrawal sequence from Season 1 Episode 4 again! When Elliot pulls out the key from the pie he's eating, he holds it up to Angela who acts like it's a proposal and says "I do!" The key that's a representation of the harm Elliot was put through as a child... used as a proposal device. That's kinda hosed up! But then again, it also represents the control he believed he had. So, also kinda not hosed up? I dunno. It's weird. Elliot's brain is weird. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 00:18
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so derisively is pretty laughable, it was a transformative series in TV history that holds up surprisingly well to rewatch. It seems to have become one of those "cool to hate" things.
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I don't know, it felt like too much mystery box "just don't think about it, look at how prettily we framed this shot instead!" nonsense for me. Too many questions just ignored and unanswered, and too many other questions answered with "actually it was yet another personality you didn't know about until right now". I didn't read every post in this thread because its too long but I did most of them, and it looks like its going to go the same way the Show That Must Not Be Named went, where the fervent supporters are going to retroactively rewrite what the show was about from the beginning to justify their perfect ending. I thought the ending was pretty alright, certainly way better than that Other Show, but it's not the second coming of Christ that some people want to think it is. Anyways, that's all my thoughts on the end of Mr Robot, I will now leave you to your 100 pages of goonily shouting past each other rather than actually listening and talking.
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Dec 28, 2019 00:24
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counterfeitsaint posted:I thought the ending was pretty alright, certainly way better than that Other Show, but it's not the second coming of Christ that some people want to think it is. Edit: Unless you've been on Reddit, where hilarious opinions like that tend to grow and thrive. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 00:26
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Cuddly Tumblemumps posted:Consistent with the charismatic lies she told. Yeah I wasn’t clear but this is definitely how I saw it.
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Dec 28, 2019 01:25
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DaveKap posted:The problem I have with this is that it means half of what drove the show from Season 2 to 4, Whiterose and her overly powerful Dark Army, had a poor motive. They are entirely faith-based and require the viewer to also be faith-based in order to believe that they're as powerful as they are and their motivations have merit. I'm watching a show about a nerd with DID trying to hack the top 1% of the top 1%. At no point would I find faith-based mega-mobs entertaining in this context. At no point would I make the leap of faith that Angela 180'd due to faith-based brainwashing. At no point would I see the breadcrumbs of alternate dimensions (Berenstein/Shazam/The day and date incongruity) and think "that means nothing." But that's what Mr. Robot wanted and that's what I have a problem with. I'll actually agree with you here, which is why although I find the finale thematically successful I don't find it especially rewarding for me, the loyal viewer. I feel like the hints have all been part of a con where Esmail is trying to show us how easily a person can be lead to want to believe in this kind of reality. Like we see these easter eggs and implications and breadcrumbs and we think "oh my god they're really going for this, I'm so excited", and that's the same kind of mindset that make damaged people like Whiterose and Angela such firm believers in the cause, because they want their world to be more than it is. We're shown a giant machine and a creepy room and left to fill in the gap, and we come up with inventive, wild ideas. At the end of eXit, the general consensus here was "they actually did it, I'm completely onboard", with the skepticism more or less drowned out by theory-crafting about the rules of this alternate world. But that's sort of flimsy exploitation when it comes down to it, because when you throw in a left turn like that of course the audience is going to buy into it and get psyched, they've been conditioned for it over two seasons. To then dash that idea to the ground makes it seem like the producers want us to feel dumb for buying into the elaborate magic truck they've engineered specifically to fool us.
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Dec 28, 2019 01:34
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Strange Matter posted:I'll actually agree with you here, which is why although I find the finale thematically successful I don't find it especially rewarding for me, the loyal viewer. I feel like the hints have all been part of a con where Esmail is trying to show us how easily a person can be lead to want to believe in this kind of reality. Like we see these easter eggs and implications and breadcrumbs and we think "oh my god they're really going for this, I'm so excited", and that's the same kind of mindset that make damaged people like Whiterose and Angela such firm believers in the cause, because they want their world to be more than it is. We're shown a giant machine and a creepy room and left to fill in the gap, and we come up with inventive, wild ideas. At the end of eXit, the general consensus here was "they actually did it, I'm completely onboard", with the skepticism more or less drowned out by theory-crafting about the rules of this alternate world. I'm glad you at least understand that it's flimsy exploitation. Thank you for that.
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Dec 28, 2019 02:48
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DaveKap posted:Oh no... oh nooooooo.... this brings us back around to the whole "yeah the director wants you to feel what the characters are feeling and since they succeeded that means the show is good" argument I've been trying to stomp down since Legion posters began echoing that Noah Hawley was trying to put the audience in the mind of someone suffering mutant psychoses as a way of justifying poor writing. Guessing post modernism isn't really your thing then haha.
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Dec 28, 2019 03:04
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Open Source Idiom posted:Guessing post modernism isn't really your thing then haha. Unless it's my posting! DaveKap fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 03:14
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Re: the key; Angela would obviously have also been molested had Doubleday been able to continue working on the show. Anybody who claims Sam Esmail, as extravagant an auteur as each episode post-s1 shows, really wanted to do Angela via reused footage and voiceover in the finale is deluded.Strange Matter posted:But that's sort of flimsy exploitation when it comes down to it, because when you throw in a left turn like that of course the audience is going to buy into it and get psyched, they've been conditioned for it over two seasons. To then dash that idea to the ground makes it seem like the producers want us to feel dumb for buying into the elaborate magic truck they've engineered specifically to fool us. Of course because it's ~the power of stories~ that matters, not whatever is in them. God I hate when creators masturbate over how powerful the story they tell is
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Dec 28, 2019 03:21
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Mameluke posted:Of course because it's ~the power of stories~ that matters, not whatever is in them. God I hate when creators masturbate over how powerful the story they tell is EDIT: In contrast, BSG's finale was frustrating because, whereas Mr. Robot knew what the audience wanted and used it to pull a fast one on us, BSG went to great lengths to demonstrate that it really wasn't interested at all in what we wanted. Strange Matter fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 04:13
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To piggyback on what some others have said about the machine: I don't think "did Whiterose's machine work or not" is the proper read. I think "the villain was defeated" is the proper read. If Whiterose got her machine to the Congo and was able to turn it on, I'm sure it would've done... something. Or at least Whiterose believed in it so much that she was willing to sacrifice her life for it. But it always came off as a Doomsday MacGuffin: Had it been operational and up and running, knowing what I know about the LHC (simulating the conditions just after the Big Bang), it seems like it would've just destroyed the universe and started a new one, even if it would destroy the rest of us. I remember there being fears that the LHC would do just that back when they first turned it on in 2008. So it makes sense that Esmail threw a bit of that paranoia in the show. Whiterose's final actions in the show were desperate last-ditch efforts. xtal posted:If you read around, magic cis is definitely the impression that most people actually have. I'm not the one suggesting it. DaveKap posted:2: Since Lost finished, I have never heard anyone from either side of the "I love Lost"/"I hate Lost" fence describe Lost the way you've described it here. However, the fact you watched a "chronological edit rewatch" does indicate a couple of things to me. You've either fallen into the sunken cost fallacy of enjoying Lost or you're a die-hard fan of a show that was crafted meticulously enough to cleverly tell a story that only works after the show is over and you edit the run order. For the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to say it's the latter which just leads to an argument about whether or not building a show like that is secret genius or openly stupid. You already know which side I'd argue so let's just drop it there.  "I disagree, therefore you must be a mindless die-hard" isn't a good take no matter what show you're talking about, and it makes you come off as an rear end in a top hat. Not that I need to justify my viewing habits to an internet stranger, but I watched it with a roommate because we both liked the series and hadn't watched it in years, and we both dabble in video editing as a hobby so it was a fun activity to see how they pulled it off.quote:I have nothing against Lost fans, I have nothing against Lost, I'm just using it as the word/show which defines a mystery box that asks questions which never get answered. If you have a better show that fits this description which is universally known for doing exactly that, by all means I'll take it. But it's not Twin Peaks. It's not anything by Lynch. Fringe maybe? I wouldn't know, it doesn't get nearly as much hate as Lost ever did. As has been pointed out, Lost's breadcrumbs went somewhere, you just either didn't like where they went or you didn't pick up on them. It's not a good example. Maybe one of those short-lived Lost clones from the mid 2000s that got canceled and never got to explain their obvious rear end-pull mysteries is more what you're referring to: Surface, Invasion, Threshold, The Event, Flashforward, etc.
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Dec 28, 2019 05:20
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sticklefifer posted:
So yeah, that was a dick move on my part. Sorry!
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Dec 28, 2019 08:15
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DaveKap posted:That's a better ending than Part 2. Without Part 2 it read to me as Good-Life Elliot becoming his fantasy creation hacker-for-the-people. Good-Life Elliot, a 1%er with the means to change the world in a meaningful way instead just fantasizes about it in his comic/story thing. The guilt of protecting F/E Corp got to him, and the alter-ego takes over, not literally killing Good-Life Elliot but instead taking over his mind. I walked away from it thinking 'wow, this ending is ballsy as hell, not sure if I hate it or not yet'. But then I watched Part 2 which was a little more bland but at least Darlene was there. It was a 'good ending' and not poo poo or anything but Part 1 as an ending felt so raw and exciting. I'm sure that would be a minority opinion though as most people would feel like they spent so much time looking for answers while Esmail smuggley suggests 'What did Tyrell see? Why was Angela convinced of White Roses' plan? How can the Dark Army act with such impunity? Well, Good-Life Elliot didn't get to finish it, or maybe he's a lovely writer.  'Anyway none of that poo poo happened so enjoy my fanfic.
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Dec 28, 2019 17:35
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mastershakeman posted:you can have pretty much any show ever say oh actually, the protagonist the whole time was just a split personality that was substantially? Like the main personality and now the split is in the back seat. Just say that's true for homer Simpson, or Tony soprano, or walter white, or whoever. Its completely meaningless since it's completely uncoupled from any material difference or effect on other characters who just rolled with it . As far as I can tell the only difference in personalities was angry Elliot was more sheltered so he could be more effective and focused working on the hacking and even that almost didn't work in the long run Echoing this take. The finale was tedious to me because there's no observable difference to the viewer whether Elliot is "The Mastermind" or "The Real Elliot". It doesn't recontextualize anything in the series, not to mention the notion of "The Real Elliot" panacea that fixes all of Elliot's emotional struggle is a rather dumb and regressive take on mind and mental health from a show that apart from its main Fight Club conceit manages to do an ok job from time to time. The Deus Hack and escape denouement were more satisfying conclusions to me, but the need for another prestige character magic trick reflects my main issue with the show: like Fight Club it's an inherently political story told via mediums that are terrified of the characters' politics, so other than the occasional Occupy sign slogan will focus on anything else. I still love the production and sound design, so didn't mind another two hours of that. I enjoyed the series, but am glad it hasn't dragged itself out longer.
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Dec 28, 2019 17:39
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I've been thinking White Roses machine did work, Elliot did wake up to a better world.
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Dec 28, 2019 19:20
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That's what happened. Her machine took our Elliot into the real world, where he finds out his reality is a dark fictional version from the mind of the guy he is the doppelganger self-insert character of. Our fake-Elliot kills the author and takes over his life. Didn't know it was up for interpretation.
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Dec 28, 2019 20:18
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Khanstant posted:That's what happened. Her machine took our Elliot into the real world, where he finds out his reality is a dark fictional version from the mind of the guy he is the doppelganger self-insert character of. Our fake-Elliot kills the author and takes over his life. Didn't know it was up for interpretation. So you didn't see the second episode either huh?
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Dec 28, 2019 20:21
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I had to look up if you're loving with me with some meta joke I didn't get. Now I have to make a choice because I was beyond satisfied as that being the true final ending to the series. I didn't read the final part of Dark Tower Stephen King was like "maybe don't read this if you liked anything before this." I can't see anything after that adding to my enjoyment of the series.
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Dec 28, 2019 22:05
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As much as I enjoy the twist and reveal that Part 2 had concerning Elliot Prime vs Elliot Mastermind, now seeing two people post about missing it has brought me into the "ok but really is Part 2 necessary?" mindset. Without mega-posting and wasting all our time, here's the most basic and quick take I have. Without Part 2, there is a trade-off in what does and doesn't get answered. What convinced Angela? What did the machine do? Why did the Dark Army operate with impunity? What was with all the alternate dimension hints? All of these questions get answered but a new set of questions arises. Who/what was the third personality that said Vera wasn't a problem? How was Darlene involved with connecting to that personality? How the gently caress is Elliot going to properly integrate into a world that expects different things of him? This trade-off practically flips a switch on the show's resolution, almost giving the viewer a choice of which they would rather have, if it weren't for 3 scenes hinting at Elliot Prime's existence. S01E04's withdrawal when Angela says "you were only born a month ago," Elliot's conversation with Mr. Robot where neither of them knew Vera had come back, and the boardroom "waiting for the other one" scene at the end of the same episode. In other words, 1 scene at the very beginning of the show that could've been interpreted any number of ways and 2 scenes in the final season that could've easily been cut. This leads me to wonder if Esmail had allowed himself the choice in how to finish this thing off depending on how people reacted to seasons 2 and 3. If he built the show such that it would have the ability to end one way or another with the simple airing of a couple scenes. The Mastermind reveal with Angela was already filmed when the show began but he could've just kept it a secret all along. It's not like he has trouble doing that when you look at the secrets of what Tyrell saw, what Angela saw, if the machine would work, and why the Dark Army was so zealous. If he admitted it, that to me would be the real secret genius of this show. Written like choose your own adventure, decided by the reactions of the audience as it went. Maybe Season 4 exists only because Esmail needed Season 3's extra time to decide. That's probably stretching it but it's a neat idea to think of. gently caress I mega-posted again.
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Dec 28, 2019 22:45
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https://i.imgur.com/5odjKbK.mp4
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Dec 28, 2019 22:53
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DaveKap posted:"ok but really is Part 2 necessary?" Dude, loving big N O. I started watching it despite my last post and knowing better. This is loving boring, it's not satisfying, it's not really answering anything for me. I have no idea why it exists. It un-solves a lot of things that were solved an hour ago when I still existed in the reality where this part 2 didn't exist. Christ, last night I was recommending this show as being worth it because of the payoff at the end. I was legit confused what y'all were griping about above, thought it was a fantastic end, remember the comments that night being positive, and thought y'all were just negative nancys negativing out over some bullshit. I legit thought y'all made "the mastermind" monicker up, but no the show straight up uses it shamelessly. I think if I ever recommend this show again it will be with a notice to skip the very last episode. I think even if you wanted the whole thing to be not-magical at all and just be roundabout unhealthy self care for mental illness, the Part 1 ending could accomplish the same thing with some imagination. Honestly the most ready comparison that comes to mind is El Camino. As someone who didn't even finish or like BB that much, it obviously wasn't for me, but even for the people it was for, it seemed gratuitous. If you wanted a good ending for Jesse, you already got it, but El Camino exists if you want to like, stay at the airport until the airplane completely takes off there ya go. Part 1 - Elliot attains some happiness and resolution through a cool fiction-to-life-doppelganger-take-over-irl-counterpart which could be real or metaphor if you wanted. Part 2 - jk it's mental health turtles all the way down and the only magic is all the unbelievable stuff that we saw along the way being real after all. Khanstant fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 23:13
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I thought this was such a good shot. Knowing it's practical makes it even better. I love this.
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Dec 28, 2019 23:46
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Your ruining the magic.
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Dec 29, 2019 02:10
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You guys are mental and I'm backing out of this thread. Without the final episode it's way more ambiguous and leaves a whole bunch more unexplained breadcrumbs which is what you are specifically complaining about being a 'writing failure'. This show was not great at times but the ending shifted the whole meaning of character influences from the very beginning right to the end. Many, many things and the way some characters, particularly Mr. Robot, behave thoroughout the series make much less sense without the illumination of the final reveal. Having a wacky cool alt universe murdered my counterpart ending is great to talk about but just doesn't resolve the central theme of the show which is Elliot's mental illness and childhood trauma. In the days following, I've been dealing with some of my own trauma (luckily nothing anywhere near the level that poor Elliot went through) and I'm also lucky enough to have people that will be there for me while I go through it. Darlene being unable to share Elliot's burdens turned ou to be the final straw that snapped Elliot's will to hold on to control of his own psyche - I'm glad he got Darlene back and I'm glad I have my own Darlenes to share some of what sucks about the world with. The final message I'm taking from Mr. Robot is that I don't have to go through it alone - and I also need to make sure that I show up for others. I don't need to take down global conspiracies to deal with my own problems, or to be there for other people. I didn't mean for a TV show to work on me like therapy and that's definitely not why I was watching, but it turned out to be much more meaningful than a parallel universe machine would ever be. Haters can have this thread now, I've said enough.
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Dec 29, 2019 02:17
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Chadzok posted:The final message I'm taking from Mr. Robot is that I don't have to go through it alone - and I also need to make sure that I show up for others. Elliot did have to take down the global conspiracy to self actualize though--the Council of Elliots didn't step in to tell the Mastermind to back off until his job was done (incidentally, Mr. Robot taking over and scheming with the same ultimate agenda but at cross purposes with the Mastermind [including telling Tyrell to shoot him!] really doesn't make any loving sense to me based on the last episode's revelation or with his own supposed role as the guardian). Elliot got to make a personality to live out the dream of his power fantasy beyond his wildest imagination and then wake up into the new world that splintered part of himself had created.
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Dec 29, 2019 02:27
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Sinteres posted:Elliot did have to take down the global conspiracy to self actualize though--the Council of Elliots didn't step in to tell the Mastermind to back off until his job was done (incidentally, Mr. Robot taking over and scheming with the same ultimate agenda but at cross purposes with the Mastermind [including telling Tyrell to shoot him!] really doesn't make any loving sense to me based on the last episode's revelation or with his own supposed role as the guardian). Elliot got to make a personality to live out the dream of his power fantasy beyond his wildest imagination and then wake up into the new world that splintered part of himself had created. I think what some people are missing is that it's also Darlene's fault for not talking real with him earlier. She took the easy road of letting him repress his trauma and act out his fantasies. Maybe if she had actually had the conversations about his abuse that she was so terrified of, then the Mastermind personality would have been able to let go a lot earlier. Remember, he was not willing to let go - "This is my life, and it always will be" - until Darlene was real about missing Elliot, wanting him back, and being willing to front up to the terrible poo poo he went through. Edit: I gave my view of Mr. Robot's motivations earlier in the thread but him not wanting anything to stop the hacks from moving forward is because it was his belief that the best way to get Mastermind to let go control was to enact his original ambitions (which Mastermind goes back and forth in wanting to be a part of perhaps because it is his original purpose, but at some point he either decided or just instinctively preferred being Elliot). Mr. Robot is pretty antagonistic towards the Mastermind personality in the first couple seasons but definitely softens as I think he comes to realise that Mastermind is just as delicate and traumatised as the real Elliot and that if the truth is not broken to him in the right way or the right time, he'll just have a freakout, forget a whole bunch of poo poo, re-establish control and start the whole cycle again. At the end of the day, even Mr. Robot's master plan failed - Elliot and his personalities cannot deal with their own poo poo no matter how much he changes the world or how many personalities he creates. They all needed Darlene. Not just her presence, but her willingness to help him heal. What I'm trying to say is that taking down Whiterose and the Deus Group didn't work. It didn't do what any of his personalities (including us) were hoping. He was still perfectly willing to lock Elliot in a box and take over his life. Until Darlene wanted Elliot back, trauma and all, Mastermind didn't give a poo poo what happened to the real Elliot. 'Keep him happy in a fantasy somewhere that he won't try to break out of, because this is my life.' Chadzok fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Dec 29, 2019 |
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Dec 29, 2019 02:36
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The reason why I say this is the central theme of the show is because the entire conspiracy and hacking plot is completely incidental and could have been anything. Maybe a personality was created that was convinced that Elliot needed the love and adulation of thousands by being a rockstar, and the whole show was about his journey and struggle and failings and to get there - at the end of the day, he does, but after his first big stadium gig he passes out from a morphine overdose or whatever, the exact same set of events happens where he realises he'd rather kill and take over this simple little Elliot that is going to marry Angela instead. His mind breaks down, he realises his entire rockstar persona was a singleminded and parasitic invention that locked up the original Elliot that, sure, he liked to play guitar and he sometimes fantasised about being onstage but it wasn't his entire reason for being. Anyway, the rockstar Mastermind loves being the main dude and is just as afraid of 'death' as anyone else, so he reaffirms control, comes to in hospital, Darlene is there, she snaps him out of it and the real Elliot can reconnect and move forward with her support. The rockstar plotline was fun to watch but ultimately it wasn't dealing with the underlying message of trauma and being there for others. The parallel universe machine makes for a much better story than my pile of poo poo because it enables the viewer to be placed in situations of ambiguous reality, but the central story of the show is completely untouched if the way Mastermind thinks he can overcome Elliot's trauma and thus his entire journey changes to something entirely different. Without the final episode and the critical importance of real Elliot's relationship with Darlene, absolutely none of this comes across. I realise I'm still writing when I said I would stop but maybe there's something worthwhile in it for someone.
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Dec 29, 2019 03:30
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Chadzok posted:You guys are mental and I'm backing out of this thread. Without the final episode it's way more ambiguous and leaves a whole bunch more unexplained breadcrumbs which is what you are specifically complaining about being a 'writing failure'. The final episode is perfect.
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Dec 29, 2019 04:14
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DaveKap posted:You're right, I posted like an rear end in a top hat when I could've just said I think you have a bias for re-watching 90 hours of television just to pick apart some possibly clever clues. My only defense is that I did say I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I still do. I don't think you're a mindless die-hard. But I do think that re-watching 90 hours of a television show in a re-arranged order is a waste of time when a better show simply wouldn't require such steep investment. To be fair to the person, you were responding to: Mr Robot, unlike Lost absolutely will benefit from a rewatch. Almost every season gave you a reason to go back and watch what you saw before with a fresh look w/r/t what new information you have. Season one benefits from a rewatch when you learn that Mr Robot is an apparition of, or appears to maybe actually be a memory of Edward. Season two when you learn that Elliot is in jail. Season three because you learn that the Dark Army is the real big bad guy (the seventy buildings exploding instead of one), and Angela and Darlene are ostensibly betraying Elliot. Season four because of what Elliot realized with Vera's gunpoint-forced therapy session. With the finale, it's obvious. Lost was a fun watch while it was running but it wasn't a well-crafted show by any stretch. Mr Robot isn't perfect, it has some flaws and head scratchers too . It also looks as slick as a big budget movie, sounds amazing, and was put together with a ton of care, even if some parts dragged (looking at you seasons 2 and 3). Maybe don't grind your interenet axe down to a nub against other people who love watching good TV! It could always be worse: Whiterose, Mr Robot and Elliot could have three-way kissed and embraced each other while the bricks of the Washington Township plant crushed their bodies to death whilst Dom was flying around on a dragon. UltraShame fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Dec 29, 2019 |
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Dec 29, 2019 07:12
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UltraShame posted:Maybe don't grind your interenet axe down to a nub against other people who love watching good TV! It could always be worse: Whiterose, Mr Robot and Elliot could have three-way kissed and embraced each other while the bricks of the Washington Township plant crushed their bodies to death whilst Dom was flying around on a dragon. Chadzok posted:In the days following, I've been dealing with some of my own trauma
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Dec 29, 2019 11:31
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I do appreciate the sentiment but I'm tougher than a comedy internet post can break, I really do think people seem to be missing the point of the show and it's worth it to me to try to explain it. Don't have to cop out of disagreeing with me. Maybe I'm not ready to leave the thread yet, I'm still enjoying the responses. There's still one scene that I'm racking my brain over. If you can convince me that they just 'got this scene wrong' then I'd admit it doesn't hold together the entire way through (this would have no effect on the experiences that it's given me afterwards). The scene where Darlene "first comes back into town". (S2E4, Opening scene) He's putting away one of his hack victory DVD's. SO he's Mastermind. He answers the door, him and Darlene hang out, later they talk about Mum and Dad. SO he's Elliot? Or Mastermind before the incident that makes him forget? (Which then could not be the server room incident because he talks about it happening in this scene) He puts on the Mr. Robot jacket and the mask. His posture changes and he seems to have shifted personality. Is he now meant to be Mr. Robot? He outlines the plan for 5/9 and the followup. Isn't this Mastermind's plan? Didn't he come up with it? Is he Mastermind right now or Mr. Robot? On the level that I'm looking at the show, this scene is by far the biggest flaw unless someone can explain it to me. As we were 'first-watching' the show, it seemed to be the first appearance of Mr. Robot or at the least the first time he came up with the hack idea. But now we know that is not true on several levels. With everything that we know after the finale, it only seems to work because we don't know exactly when or how Mastermind took control or became amnesic and whether both of those took place at the same time. And also we then have to assume that it's Mastermind under the mask, not Mr. Robot which is unintuitive for the scene as presented. Unless I'm missing something, it's a bit of stretch to make this scene fit, but also not impossible. I'd love to ask Esmail about it.
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Dec 29, 2019 12:28
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About halfway through the first hour I remembered a poem:ee cummings posted:pity this busy monster, manunkind, Thanks for the story, Sam. It’s the only TV show I’ve watched in the last 10 years!
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Dec 29, 2019 18:45
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Chadzok posted:I do appreciate the sentiment but I'm tougher than a comedy internet post can break, I really do think people seem to be missing the point of the show and it's worth it to me to try to explain it. Don't have to cop out of disagreeing with me. Maybe I'm not ready to leave the thread yet, I'm still enjoying the responses. i see it as 'mastermind' taking complete control right when the series starts. he is on a loop, he doesn't remember darlene, he doesn't recognize mr robot. before this, when elliot tries on the mask, he's in an interstitial phase of sorts, where all the personalities blur a bit. But i would argue this is the moment his personality splits and mastermind begins to be formed. Mr robot might be influencing his actions as well. I'd say mr robot was always just a helper, someone to push elliot (any one elliot personality) along. He supplies determination and aggressiveness. all in all, that was probably elliot prime we saw in that scene. Before he was jailed in happy-land
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Dec 29, 2019 19:16
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In the end, when I look back fondly upon this show, I will remember the perfect Season 1, the hilarious ALF episode, the decent one-shot episode, BD Wong's performance, and the proof that Jake Busey deserves to be in a lead role of something very popular. https://i.imgur.com/MS5JxFa.gifv
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Dec 30, 2019 11:28
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Chadzok posted:You guys are mental and I'm backing out of this thread. Without the final episode it's way more ambiguous and leaves a whole bunch more unexplained breadcrumbs which is what you are specifically complaining about being a 'writing failure'. I realized that if you end with the penultimate episode, you actually get a very similar ending to twin peaks season 2 where Bob takes over cooper in the real world. It's inexplicable and horrifying and it's an awesome ending, and people didn't throw tantrums over how the pieces didn't fit together.
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Dec 30, 2019 22:13
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I liked the ending, even though with how much attention was put into the fourth wall season you could kind of see it coming. I definitely appreciated how the machine ended up just being a macguffin. I feel like solving everything in a time loop is a narrative that is really starting to grate on me.mastershakeman posted:I realized that if you end with the penultimate episode, you actually get a very similar ending to twin peaks season 2 where Bob takes over cooper in the real world. It's inexplicable and horrifying and it's an awesome ending, and people didn't throw tantrums over how the pieces didn't fit together.
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Dec 30, 2019 22:33
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