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Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



Fallen Rib

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Oh yeah it all depends on where you sit. The G.50s were fairly modern as well.

Musso was trying to look like a major world league playa. My favourite bit is that on request of Germans he sent four torpedo boats with crews to Lake Ladoga in 1942 to assist in the siege of Leningrad. The boats had to be taken on trucks through mountain villages, and the roads being what they were, some houses had to lose a bit of wall to make way to the wide loads.

By the end of June the boats arrived to destination. One month later one of the four boats was disabled. After a summer and fall of cruisin' in Ladoga and sinking one barge and one gun boat, the lake froze and Italians spent the winter at dock in Tallinn. Then in May 1943 the crews were called back to defend Italy while the boats were sold to Finns.

Totally worth the trouble!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XII_Squadriglia_MAS

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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


One of the big things that killed big public baths was the erosion of philanthropic public works projects, since after the goodwill of the people of Rome stopped being a factor in building a political career, the wealthy stopped building their own big projects.

In the centuries later on where the wealthy and powerful abandoned cities in favor of private estates out in country (or alternatively, had their wealth stolen by people who preferred defensible private estates in the country), it was also less practical for the wealthy to provide public facilities in regions with lower population density, and I imagine just less reason to do so when you're a monarch and you don't particularly need to goose public opinion.

I don't know what the deal was when cities redeveloped into their own new centers of power though.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006



Raenir Salazar posted:

So, in the book, it sounded like English people in the 1600s didn't bath, we know the Romans were big into bathing, how accurate was this? Or did big public baths like the Romans had went away and people are thinking the big public baths going away also means no one bathed, even in a river, ever?

Yeah, this is pretty much on point- a professional pilot who goes around the world would also not be quite as 'English' in any case, but he would also be bathing. It's hardly the most egregious thing the book does with cultures, though. I just wanted to point out that because the problems in handling Japanese culture and Japanese characters are much more obvious.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


SlothfulCobra posted:

One of the big things that killed big public baths was the erosion of philanthropic public works projects, since after the goodwill of the people of Rome stopped being a factor in building a political career, the wealthy stopped building their own big projects.

In the centuries later on where the wealthy and powerful abandoned cities in favor of private estates out in country (or alternatively, had their wealth stolen by people who preferred defensible private estates in the country), it was also less practical for the wealthy to provide public facilities in regions with lower population density, and I imagine just less reason to do so when you're a monarch and you don't particularly need to goose public opinion.

I don't know what the deal was when cities redeveloped into their own new centers of power though.
But public baths existed in the Middle Ages.

Slim Jim Pickens
Jan 16, 2012


Nessus posted:

How bad was it? What I've heard is that basically everyone who didn't have a literal Arrakis-scale water shortage would wash their face/hands fairly regularly and all cultures would at least occasionally hose off, even if you might go the cold months without much of a body scrub. People in the past were dirtier than us but it is arguably more that we are exceptionally clean.

The main thing is that population was like 90% rural and also generally smaller. A few families living near a stream or pond or spring are neither going to stress the water supply nor pollute it appreciably by washing with it. For the most part, they could wash however much they wanted,

In cities the water supply is more strained, but it's still not deadly to merely wash in a big river. There also lots of options for other water sources, as outside of a city the streams and springs are just like the ones in the countryside. For example, people in London would make little canals to get water from streams, or just pay people to carry water from outside the city.

The absolute worst time for cleanliness was probably the industrial revolution. Population got much higher and urbanization took off. Particularly, the satellite towns surrounding large cities bloated up into large cities in their own right, which made it impossible for city dwellers to simply go out-of-town for water. Drinking water sources were stretched to their limits, and so little was left for washing. Poor Londoners with no access to clean water had few options besides living in filth or using similarly filthy Thames water. Eventually, the whole urbanizing world started suffering from frequent cholera epidemics, which necessitated the revitalization of public water works.

Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 00:49 on May 21, 2020

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



HEY GUNS posted:

But public baths existed in the Middle Ages.

Leftover Roman ones or new-built?

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.



zoux posted:

Leftover Roman ones or new-built?
I think a mixture, I remember reading they were not very exalted places compared to the Roman ones but you could go in and soak in a hot tub.

crazypeltast52
May 5, 2010



If Patrician III is anything to go by, the Hanseatic Baltic had baths as a place for merchants to buy votes for council elections in cities. Also bathing too.

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

One of the things that killed public bathing was the Black Death, because when everybody's dying of the plague, the whole idea of "lets everybody strip down and get in the bath together, have a meal and maybe while you're there have sex with either your wife or a prostitute", was not seen as particularly safe and wise.

There was also, especially in Northern Europe, the Little Ice Age, which made public baths, especially heating them, more expensive and less profitable as a business.

Fly Molo
May 7, 2007






Epicurius posted:

One of the things that killed public bathing was the Black Death, because when everybody's dying of the plague, the whole idea of "lets everybody strip down and get in the bath together, have a meal and maybe while you're there have sex with either your wife or a prostitute", was not seen as particularly safe and wise.

There was also, especially in Northern Europe, the Little Ice Age, which made public baths, especially heating them, more expensive and less profitable as a business.

And thereís that recent DNA evidence that the Plague of Justinian was actually Bubonic Plague. The people who did survive probably werenít too fond of public gatherings after a few rounds of plague swept through.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


zoux posted:



Also their dicks are too big!

Can confirm

Ataxerxes
Dec 1, 2011

What is a soldier but a miserable pile of eaten cats and strange language?


Epicurius posted:

There was also, especially in Northern Europe, the Little Ice Age, which made public baths, especially heating them, more expensive and less profitable as a business.

True, but Northern Europe, at least Sweden/Norway/Finland/Estonia - area had a sauna culture even then. There were public saunas in cities and in the countryside a sauna served a double function as the place where you would flail seeds from grain.

Ataxerxes
Dec 1, 2011

What is a soldier but a miserable pile of eaten cats and strange language?


Also, someone finally made an article in English about Finnish saunas in WW2: https://inktank.fi/sweating-war-fin...soldiers-sauna/

Promontory
Apr 6, 2011


bewbies posted:

I just read Rick Atkinson's new book on the Revolutionary War book and I thought it was one of the best history books I've read in quite a while. Unfortunately, 1) it only covers the first two years of the war and 2) the next two books in the trilogy haven't been published yet and won't be for a while.

Cessna posted:

With Zeal and With Bayonets Only: The British Army on Campaign in North America, 1775Ė1783 by Spring is quite good.

Fuligin posted:

Crucible of War, by Fred Anderson. It's on the French-Indian War and it's quite good.

Anarchy, by William Dalrimple, is one of the best history books I've read in a while. Covers the East India Company and its expansion into a quasi-state during the fall of the Mughal Empire. Really recommended

Thank you, all of these sound very interesting. It's a fascinating period.

Mr Enderby
Mar 28, 2015



Epicurius posted:

There was also, especially in Northern Europe, the Little Ice Age, which made public baths, especially heating them, more expensive and less profitable as a business.

Ataxerxes posted:

True, but Northern Europe, at least Sweden/Norway/Finland/Estonia - area had a sauna culture even then. There were public saunas in cities and in the countryside a sauna served a double function as the place where you would flail seeds from grain.

Firewood prices rose very sharply in 16th England (which is why you start to see the first coal mining in this period). It makes sense that bathing would carry on in Northern Europe and Russia, where firewood remain plentiful, and in the Arab world where water often needed little heating, but fall away in cold and deforested western Europe.

I think this has come up in this thread before, but even if people bathed less during the 16th and 17th century they changed their clothes as often as they could. If you were wealthy you might change your shirt multiple times a day. The fashion for lavish lacy cuffs and ruffs was about showing off your wealth, so those items were supposed to be sparkling clean. Also clean tablecloths, handkerchiefs and bed linens were all status symbols. So it wasn't a case of people just deciding they liked being dirty.

MikeCrotch
Nov 5, 2011

I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese


I believe firewood prices going up were due to increasing industrialisation and use of charcoal on top of timber being used for shipbuilding rather than the little ice age per se

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Cyrano4747 posted:

Ye Chad Viking & ye virgin Saxon

You really need the thorn for this to work

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Tias posted:

Can confirm

Hahah oh man who says this thread doesn't have jokes.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Mr Enderby posted:

Firewood prices rose very sharply in 16th England (which is why you start to see the first coal mining in this period). It makes sense that bathing would carry on in Northern Europe and Russia, where firewood remain plentiful, and in the Arab world where water often needed little heating, but fall away in cold and deforested western Europe.

I think this has come up in this thread before, but even if people bathed less during the 16th and 17th century they changed their clothes as often as they could. If you were wealthy you might change your shirt multiple times a day. The fashion for lavish lacy cuffs and ruffs was about showing off your wealth, so those items were supposed to be sparkling clean. Also clean tablecloths, handkerchiefs and bed linens were all status symbols. So it wasn't a case of people just deciding they liked being dirty.

Some historian tested the Early Modern hygiene methods, and they started to smell a bit more, but their skin grew healthier. Rubbing yourself with a towel played a part in it too. Iirc the article was linked here, but I couldn't find it.

Mr Enderby
Mar 28, 2015



MikeCrotch posted:

I believe firewood prices going up were due to increasing industrialisation and use of charcoal on top of timber being used for shipbuilding rather than the little ice age per se

To be clear, I wasn't linking the rising price of firewood to the little ice age. I think it was mostly down to increased population and long term deforestation, although the growth of the iron and steel industry probably didn't help.

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008




Grimnarsson posted:

Why was there such a stark difference between the middle ages and the early modern period? Superficially my mind goes to the middle ages still having bath houses dating back to the Romans and early modern having powdered wigs and perfumes to dispel miasma.

Roman baths were definitely still a thing in the 17th century, too.

Mr Enderby
Mar 28, 2015



I think Hammams are basically identical to Roman baths?

This bath talk is making me wish I'd gone to Porchester Spa more often before current events transpired.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

ChubbyChecker posted:

Some historian tested the Early Modern hygiene methods,

$5 says they made their grad students do it.

Grenrow
Apr 11, 2016


zoux posted:



Also their dicks are too big!

The guy being quoted here...wasn't a historian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Wallingford_(d._1214)

And why is this dude who was born in 1152 being quoted as a source on the viking era, which would have been centuries earlier?

Neophyte
Apr 23, 2006

perennially

Taco Defender

The City Fathers are mad with power!
Reopen the stews!
It's only the normal seasonal plague!

crazypeltast52
May 5, 2010



Grenrow posted:

The guy being quoted here...wasn't a historian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Wallingford_(d._1214)

And why is this dude who was born in 1152 being quoted as a source on the viking era, which would have been centuries earlier?

Itís not about those Vikings, itís about the current Danes that stole his girl.

Grenrow
Apr 11, 2016


crazypeltast52 posted:

Itís not about those Vikings, itís about the current Danes that stole his girl.

But this same quote, usually not attributed to anyone specific, is always trotted out whenever vikings are being discussed as evidence about Norse culture, and we know for sure it's not from this guy because he didn't write any chronicles or histories.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Grenrow posted:

But this same quote, usually not attributed to anyone specific, is always trotted out whenever vikings are being discussed as evidence about Norse culture, and we know for sure it's not from this guy because he didn't write any chronicles or histories.

And personally, I'm ascribed to write it off as just a conservative of the era ranting about foreigners taking 'their' women.

crazypeltast52
May 5, 2010



Fair point on both counts.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Egypt under the Mamluk Empire not only still had public baths, street food vendors actually repurposed the coals used for heating them to cook their food in the area.

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Cythereal posted:

And personally, I'm ascribed to write it off as just a conservative of the era ranting about foreigners taking 'their' women.

He links it in the text to it being the cause St. Brice's Day massacre of the Danes by the Saxon king and the invasion of England by Sven Forkbeard. And he's a monk. So I think that he's trying to tell a story with a distinct moral her. Sexual sin (adultery, seduction of maidens) leads to greater sin (the massacre of innocents on a holy day, in one case of people taking refuge in a church), which leads to national tragedy and divine punishment of the nation (the invasion of England)

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Looks like Tom Hanks' Greyhound is not going to be released in movie theaters, but is going to Apple TV+ streaming instead.

Is this today's "straight to video?"

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Cessna posted:

Looks like Tom Hanks' Greyhound is not going to be released in movie theaters, but is going to Apple TV+ streaming instead.

Is this today's "straight to video?"

Given the situation this year, a lot of stuff is being sent straight to streaming instead of theaters

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Epicurius posted:

Given the situation this year, a lot of stuff is being sent straight to streaming instead of theaters

True.

But - well, why not just sit on it and wait it out, and release it later?

(I will admit I don't know how the movie business works.)

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters


According to the story I read, Sony was worried about securing a release slot for the movie in the glut of postponed films that are going to be released when theaters come back. So they took the sure thing of seventy million from Apple.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Cessna posted:

True.

But - well, why not just sit on it and wait it out, and release it later?

(I will admit I don't know how the movie business works.)
1) Money now is better than money later
2) A "Trolls" animated kids movie sequel made something like $90 million in its first week of home release
3) Who knows when theaters are going to reopen, or when people are going to feel safe going to them
4) Once theaters open there will be a huge backlog of unreleased movies fighting for people's attention

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Makes sense, thanks.

dublish
Oct 31, 2011



Cessna posted:

True.

But - well, why not just sit on it and wait it out, and release it later?

(I will admit I don't know how the movie business works.)

Why wait when everyone's stuck at home with nothing to do but watch movies? Why delay it and have it potentially compete with whatever you've scheduled to release in the fall, or 2021, or whenever?

efb

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



FMguru posted:

1) Money now is better than money later
2) A "Trolls" animated kids movie sequel made something like $90 million in its first week of home release
3) Who knows when theaters are going to reopen, or when people are going to feel safe going to them
4) Once theaters open there will be a huge backlog of unreleased movies fighting for people's attention

Not only that, but any money you have tied up that hasn't been earning is basically wasted. Once you've invested, say, $50 million you need it to be loving working. The opportunity costs of letting the product sit are huge, because the revenues are money that you can't reinvest in other projects. There's a business argument for releasing it even if you're going to take a loss on the product if it allows you to fund other projects that might be more profitable.

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sullat
Jan 8, 2012


On the other hand, I doubt parents are going to be spending $20 bucks to have their kids watch Tom Hanks drive a boat just to get 90 minutes of WFH peace which is what drove Trolls: World Tour's success.

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