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Slim Jim Pickens
Jan 16, 2012


Nenonen posted:

In Amerika, you dismiss history.

In Soviet Russia, history dismiss you.

There, my two kopeks worth on the subject. We can now change topic!

I have a question about submarines. Have they ever figured out better ways of evacuating from a sunken sub than swimming out of a torpedo tube or other hole? It seems like some kind of escape pod system would have helped with Kursk and many others. Eject the conning tower with rockets or something. It just feels like if we had jet fighter pilots these days still climb out of the cockpit with their parachute and bailing out the old fashioned way.

Putting any sort of break-away component in your pressure tube weakens it. You also couldn't possibly fit more than a few people in a conning tower, any sort of ejection system would definitely murder the rest of the crew. Also I have a hunch the conning tower isn't buoyant anyways.

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Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



The Soviets our escape trunks in a few of their designs. Most famously five officers rode Komsomolets down when she sank (after most of the crew got off) and escaped using hers. Four of them died but that was due to the capsule sinking when the hatch opened in rough seas not if failing at depth.

They’re very possible to put in without weakening the hull any more than you weaken it putting in other hatches.

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Родина слышит




Pillbug

Everyone's favourite corn man had quite a variety of transliterations as well:

quote:

Hrushev, Hrushew, Hrushyev, Hrushyew, Hrushjev, Hrushjew, Hruschev, Hruschew, Hruschyev, Hruschyew, Hruschjev, Hruschjew, Hrushchev, Hrushchew, Hrushchyev, Hrushchyew, Hrushchjev, Hrushchjew, Hruchhev, Hruchhew, Hruchhyev, Hruchhyew, Hruchhjev, Hruchhjew, Hruwev, Hruwew, Hruwyev, Hruwyew, Hruwjev, Hruwjew, Xrushev, Xrushew, Xrushyev, Xrushyew, Xrushjev, Xrushjew, Xruschev, Xruschew, Xruschyev, Xruschyew, Xruschjev, Xruschjew, Xrushchev, Xrushchew, Xrushchyev, Xrushchyew, Xrushchjev, Xrushchjew, Xruchhev, Xruchhew, Xruchhyev, Xruchhyew, Xruchhjev, Xruchhjew, Xruwev, Xruwew, Xruwyev, Xruwyew, Xruwjev, Xruwjew, Khrushev, Khrushew, Khrushyev, Khrushyew, Khrushjev, Khrushjew, Khruschev, Khruschew, Khruschyev, Khruschyew, Khruschjev, Khruschjew, Khrushchev, Khrushchew, Khrushchyev, Khrushchyew, Khrushchjev, Khrushchjew, Khruchhev, Khruchhew, Khruchhyev, Khruchhyew, Khruchhjev, Khruchhjew, Khruwev, Khruwew, Khruwyev, Khruwyew, Khruwjev, Khruwjew

I blame this on the Latin alphabet not being very good.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Jeeze. Do you know why FAGr 5's supposed superiors weren't handing down orders?

From what I can tell, they had several things going on. First, the Normandy invasion. Second, I think the tangle of overlapping issues relating to FAGr 5 made it too complex for a service that was being overwhelmed even as they were supposed to do something about the Allies in France. In the summer of 1944, Third Reich large aircraft production was halted, and suddenly you had all the top Luftwaffe staff feaverishly writing and rewriting plans for future aircraft, some of which were going to do Maritime Recon. It didn't help, either, that FAGr 5 had most of these Ju 290s, which were a type of aircraft as rare as hen's teeth in the Third Reich, and crews that were trained up in long range maratime recon, and there was no doubt a furious debate as to what to do with all those men. What's more, at the start of the invasion, FAGr 5 was needed for weather recon and keeping an eye out for additional invasion fleets. So it was just a mess of inter-tangled issues, almost all of which involved the top brass or at least other people.

A few years ago I wrote a series of posts on the various Nazi attempts to make bombers to attack America. It turned into the story of why German large aircraft development was such a mess. Anyway, linked above is 1944, the year everything collapsed. Put it this way: FAGr 5 started the year being promised extensive development of the Ju 290 into a whole family of aircraft. Then Ju 290 production ended, and they were told new, better He 177s were in the pipe, with the Me 264 soon joining it. Part of FAGr 5's personel were reassigned to Kommando Nebel, which was a unit specifically for getting the Me 264 ready for production. By the time this assignment happened, the single flying prototype and the factory it came from had been flattened by Allied bombers. So Nebel started working on the Dornier 635, which was...OK, you know that twin Mustang? That, but the aircraft are two Dornier 335s.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Most alphabets aren’t when you’re writing down something in a language they weren’t designed for. Are there similar issues in the Cyrillic sphere? I’m thinking the differences between, say, Russian and Serbian. Wasn’t it adopted for the non-Slavic languages in soviet Central Asia? I can’t imagine it’s an easy fit to Kazakh.

The real issue is a lack of standardizing on one system. It’s like the old wade-Giles / pinyin fight with Chinese. Ultimate it didn’t matter if it’s Xruwjew or Khrushchev, as long as the sounds represented by “Хрущёв” are consistent across other words that they’re in.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Ensign Expendable posted:

I blame this on the Latin alphabet not being very good.

Is it true that pronunciation of Russian words is super easy, with the alphabet doing a really good job of capturing all the sounds? I seem to remember reading that ages ago, but it may have been in a Tom Clancy book or some poo poo.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Epicurius posted:

"Dh" isn't a sound in English,

How soon we forget the horrors of the 90s:



PittTheElder posted:

Is it true that pronunciation of Russian words is super easy, with the alphabet doing a really good job of capturing all the sounds? I seem to remember reading that ages ago, but it may have been in a Tom Clancy book or some poo poo.

I'm FAR from fluent, but Russian is a lot more phonetic than English.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

Nebakenezzer posted:

From what I can tell, they had several things going on. First, the Normandy invasion. Second, I think the tangle of overlapping issues relating to FAGr 5 made it too complex for a service that was being overwhelmed even as they were supposed to do something about the Allies in France. In the summer of 1944, Third Reich large aircraft production was halted, and suddenly you had all the top Luftwaffe staff feaverishly writing and rewriting plans for future aircraft, some of which were going to do Maritime Recon. It didn't help, either, that FAGr 5 had most of these Ju 290s, which were a type of aircraft as rare as hen's teeth in the Third Reich, and crews that were trained up in long range maratime recon, and there was no doubt a furious debate as to what to do with all those men. What's more, at the start of the invasion, FAGr 5 was needed for weather recon and keeping an eye out for additional invasion fleets. So it was just a mess of inter-tangled issues, almost all of which involved the top brass or at least other people.

A few years ago I wrote a series of posts on the various Nazi attempts to make bombers to attack America. It turned into the story of why German large aircraft development was such a mess. Anyway, linked above is 1944, the year everything collapsed. Put it this way: FAGr 5 started the year being promised extensive development of the Ju 290 into a whole family of aircraft. Then Ju 290 production ended, and they were told new, better He 177s were in the pipe, with the Me 264 soon joining it. Part of FAGr 5's personel were reassigned to Kommando Nebel, which was a unit specifically for getting the Me 264 ready for production. By the time this assignment happened, the single flying prototype and the factory it came from had been flattened by Allied bombers. So Nebel started working on the Dornier 635, which was...OK, you know that twin Mustang? That, but the aircraft are two Dornier 335s.

I see, thank you! It's difficult to imagine just how chaotic things must have been at that time. I can imagine being a commander and thinking "man I have like two billion things going on right now, who the gently caress are these guys again? Well, whoever they are, easiest to just tell them to keep doing what they're doing, it's probably fine."

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



Fallen Rib

Epicurius posted:

"Dh" isn't a sound in English

Then how do you pronounce 'hardhat'???

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Nenonen posted:

I have a question about submarines. Have they ever figured out better ways of evacuating from a sunken sub than swimming out of a torpedo tube or other hole? It seems like some kind of escape pod system would have helped with Kursk and many others. Eject the conning tower with rockets or something. It just feels like if we had jet fighter pilots these days still climb out of the cockpit with their parachute and bailing out the old fashioned way.

I think the closest you'll get is a DSRV:

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Родина слышит




Pillbug

PittTheElder posted:

Is it true that pronunciation of Russian words is super easy, with the alphabet doing a really good job of capturing all the sounds? I seem to remember reading that ages ago, but it may have been in a Tom Clancy book or some poo poo.

It's a lot more phonetic, especially after the language reforms introduced by the Communists. There complexity of the language lies mostly in the grammar, the spelling is the easy part.

Cyrano4747 posted:

Most alphabets aren’t when you’re writing down something in a language they weren’t designed for. Are there similar issues in the Cyrillic sphere? I’m thinking the differences between, say, Russian and Serbian. Wasn’t it adopted for the non-Slavic languages in soviet Central Asia? I can’t imagine it’s an easy fit to Kazakh.

The real issue is a lack of standardizing on one system. It’s like the old wade-Giles / pinyin fight with Chinese. Ultimate it didn’t matter if it’s Xruwjew or Khrushchev, as long as the sounds represented by “Хрущёв” are consistent across other words that they’re in.

Russian maps to English and German without terrible mistakes, while there's definitely a strong accent if you pronounce it in the Russian way at least there is very little ambiguity about transliteration. There is also no weird business with diacritical marks that is often ignored when going the other way.

sullat
Jan 8, 2012


Tias posted:


This is amazing! What were the name(s) of Barthas' memoirs again?


Poilu: The World War I Notebooks of Corporal Louis Barthas, Barrelmaker, 1914-1918

This is the English translation my local library had. It's a good read.

Randarkman
Jul 18, 2011



Ensign Expendable posted:

I blame this on the Latin alphabet not being very good.

I remember from back when I took Russian classes a bit of a joke about transliteration and the Russian cabbage soup called "щи", and that first letter in particular is one of the ones done the most dirty by bad transliteration, in German for instance it's "schtsch" so the name of the soup in German is "schtschi" ("shchi" in English), which leads to joke of sorts that the Germans managed to make 7 mistakes spelling a 2-letter word.

PittTheElder posted:

Is it true that pronunciation of Russian words is super easy, with the alphabet doing a really good job of capturing all the sounds? I seem to remember reading that ages ago, but it may have been in a Tom Clancy book or some poo poo.

English is essentially crazy-land when it comes to spelling and proounciation. In Russian though, in general, if you are familair with the pronounciation of the letters, how vocal stress operates and influences the pronounciation of vowels and how all the consonants come in soft-hard pairs and one can be pronounced as another (again often dependent on stress), then you can typically apply that to figuring out how most words are pronounced before needing to hear them.

Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jun 1, 2020

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Родина слышит




Pillbug

Randarkman posted:

I remember from back when I took Russian classes a bit of a joke about transliteration and the Russian cabbage soup called "щи", and that first letter in particular is one of the ones done the most dirty by bad transliteration, in German for instance it's "schtsch" so the name of the soup in German is "schtschi" ("shchi" in English), which leads to joke of sorts that the Germans managed to make 7 mistakes spelling a 2-letter word.


English is essentially crazy-land when it comes to spelling and proounciation. In Russian though, in general, if you are familair with the pronounciation of the letters, how vocal stress operates and influences the pronounciation of vowels and how all the consonants come in soft-hard pairs and one can be pronounced as another (again often dependent on stress), then you can typically apply that to figuring out how most words are pronounced before needing to hear them.

I heard this joke about Catherine the Great where she spelled ещё as истчо.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Ensign Expendable posted:

It's a lot more phonetic, especially after the language reforms introduced by the Communists. There complexity of the language lies mostly in the grammar, the spelling is the easy part.


Russian maps to English and German without terrible mistakes, while there's definitely a strong accent if you pronounce it in the Russian way at least there is very little ambiguity about transliteration. There is also no weird business with diacritical marks that is often ignored when going the other way.

It can lead to some fun stuff. I was working with some East German papers years back and ran across a name that was just baffling. Like it was spelled all funky to the point where it took me a while to figure out who it was talking about.

It was a German politician in the Soviet occupation zone. As best as I could figure his name came up in a soviet document that was in Russian and his name cyrillicized for it. That document was CC’d to a German office as a courtesy and translated to German. I only had the translated version sadly. The name was then put back in the German alphabet based on what the translator thought of the Cyrillic document.

It was close-ish but not perfect and puzzling at first. Think “Smith” turning into “Smeetch”

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Cyrano4747 posted:

It can lead to some fun stuff. I was working with some East German papers years back and ran across a name that was just baffling. Like it was spelled all funky to the point where it took me a while to figure out who it was talking about.

It was a German politician in the Soviet occupation zone. As best as I could figure his name came up in a soviet document that was in Russian and his name cyrillicized for it. That document was CC’d to a German office as a courtesy and translated to German. I only had the translated version sadly. The name was then put back in the German alphabet based on what the translator thought of the Cyrillic document.

It was close-ish but not perfect and puzzling at first. Think “Smith” turning into “Smeetch”

There's a report from Colonel Valery Havard on the Russo-Japanese War where he refers to a Russian Colonel Debronawoff. I'm guessing he had no knowledge whatsoever of Russian and just phonetically transcribed what he heard.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



FWIW English spelling is just super hosed up in general and most other languages make tons of sense in comparison. German is super easy and pretty much always maps 1:1 on spelling and pronunciation.

I kind of want to see an alt history of what you’d get if a Slavic language made an ugly baby with Latin or something, like you see with old French and old kinda-German early English producing this mess were typing in right now.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



chitoryu12 posted:

There's a report from Colonel Valery Havard on the Russo-Japanese War where he refers to a Russian Colonel Debronawoff. I'm guessing he had no knowledge whatsoever of Russian and just phonetically transcribed what he heard.

You also see some fun German spellings of Russian names. poo poo like Tschkow

Zhukov

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Nenonen posted:

Then how do you pronounce 'hardhat'???

D and H are sounds in English. The "dh" isn't.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003



Fun Shoe

Nenonen posted:

Then how do you pronounce 'hardhat'???

harthhardt

Bourricot
Aug 7, 2016



Ensign Expendable posted:

Everyone's favourite corn man had quite a variety of transliterations as well:

quote:

Hrushev, Hrushew, Hrushyev, Hrushyew, Hrushjev, Hrushjew, Hruschev, Hruschew, Hruschyev, Hruschyew, Hruschjev, Hruschjew, Hrushchev, Hrushchew, Hrushchyev, Hrushchyew, Hrushchjev, Hrushchjew, Hruchhev, Hruchhew, Hruchhyev, Hruchhyew, Hruchhjev, Hruchhjew, Hruwev, Hruwew, Hruwyev, Hruwyew, Hruwjev, Hruwjew, Xrushev, Xrushew, Xrushyev, Xrushyew, Xrushjev, Xrushjew, Xruschev, Xruschew, Xruschyev, Xruschyew, Xruschjev, Xruschjew, Xrushchev, Xrushchew, Xrushchyev, Xrushchyew, Xrushchjev, Xrushchjew, Xruchhev, Xruchhew, Xruchhyev, Xruchhyew, Xruchhjev, Xruchhjew, Xruwev, Xruwew, Xruwyev, Xruwyew, Xruwjev, Xruwjew, Khrushev, Khrushew, Khrushyev, Khrushyew, Khrushjev, Khrushjew, Khruschev, Khruschew, Khruschyev, Khruschyew, Khruschjev, Khruschjew, Khrushchev, Khrushchew, Khrushchyev, Khrushchyew, Khrushchjev, Khrushchjew, Khruchhev, Khruchhew, Khruchhyev, Khruchhyew, Khruchhjev, Khruchhjew, Khruwev, Khruwew, Khruwyev, Khruwyew, Khruwjev, Khruwjew

I blame this on the Latin alphabet not being very good.
That's only the English ones, right? French is Khrouchtchev, and German is Chruschtschow.

Gaddafi also had tons of different spellings:

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



Nenonen posted:

Then how do you pronounce 'hard-hat'???

It'd be a lot easier if the linking hyphen came back in-to fashion

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



Fallen Rib

bewbies posted:

harthhardt



Btw. it must have been really easy to memorize the names of top Nazis if you were Russian. Just anyone whose name begins with g: Gitler, Gebbels, Gimmler, Gering, Gess...

Groda
Mar 17, 2005



Hair Elf

Ensign Expendable posted:

I blame this on the Latin alphabet not being very good.

Dutch and Swedish (and probably German, too) have remarkably consistent and well established transcription systems. English's problem is just a lack of coordination.

What really irks me is how little effort has been put into the transcription of Persian. It always looks so ugly, and is never done the same way twice.

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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Cyrano4747 posted:

FWIW English spelling is just super hosed up in general and most other languages make tons of sense in comparison. German is super easy and pretty much always maps 1:1 on spelling and pronunciation.

I kind of want to see an alt history of what you’d get if a Slavic language made an ugly baby with Latin or something, like you see with old French and old kinda-German early English producing this mess were typing in right now.

English had to reconcile german and latin while nestled between Wales and France who both do their own weird thing with the latin alphabet that don't seem to have anything to do with anybody else's interpretation of how those letters work. They could've made some grand program to coordinate spelling, but confusing messes that don't follow any clear rules but just vague understandings is kinda what the entirety of English history is built on.

Then after colonization had begun, it was basically too late to totally reform spelling. Although from what I remember from back when I was reading some records written by pilgrims, they just seemed to kinda like throwing around double letters and silent es for no real reason or pattern, so I wouldn't put it past the people of the 17th century to just be making things difficult on purpose.

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