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ErrEff
Feb 13, 2012

Have you heard the good news?

Look deeply into my eyes.

STADIA!


OwlFancier posted:

As I said earlier, people don't "just forget" about the nature of the relationship between internet personalities and the people who watch them, they are explicitly encouraged to develop parasocial relationships with them. That is a major feature of the business model because that is how monetization happens for the content creators who are largely dependent on people wanting to give them money for no reason. That is what media platforms encourage performers to cultivate because it increases viewer retention.

Giving content creators social power over their followers in the form of perceived relationships is by design. It is how the medium you watch sustains itself. It is what it is selling, that is the product.

It does depend on how active the personality is in general but people are encouraged and pushed towards following on multiple fronts of social media. Not everyone will necessarily do that everywhere but for many streamers, the "full course" means seeing them in your YouTube/Twitter/Instagram feeds, etc. - maybe even getting email updates via Patreon or Twitch notifications as well, perhaps also reading the fan subreddit. Constantly engaged, ideally.

Putting yourself out there in as many places as possible also means the various recommendation algorithms can get a better picture of audience trends and direct people towards you based on their preferences.

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OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Interaction is also explicitly the point of streaming, you are supposed to feel like there is a back and forth because that is the point of the format over pre-produced videos. You exchange production quality for interactivity and a sense of "realness" to the unscripted performance and the performer in turn gets more watch time and less editing to do, unless they want to make highlight videos.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
BUT DID ANY OF YOU STOP FOR ONE SECOND TO CONSIDER HOW THIS EFFECTS ME PERSONALLY?! NO YOU DID NOT BECAUSE I AM STUPID AND UNIMPORTANT! GOOD JOB! KEEP IT UP!

Seriously though. Ignore me. For your health.

ErrEff posted:

It does depend on how active the personality is in general but people are encouraged and pushed towards following on multiple fronts of social media. Not everyone will necessarily do that everywhere but for many streamers, the "full course" means seeing them in your YouTube/Twitter/Instagram feeds, etc. - maybe even getting email updates via Patreon or Twitch notifications as well, perhaps also reading the fan subreddit. Constantly engaged, ideally.

Putting yourself out there in as many places as possible also means the various recommendation algorithms can get a better picture of audience trends and direct people towards you based on their preferences.

This is also why it was a bit harder to believe things about Vinny though - heís been painstakingly private about himself and his life for years. Dude streams, does conventions, and cross-promoted his band. Compared to usual streamers or other social media personalities heís downright secretive.

Which was also why people were poring over emails or whatever, since that was the main public way to contact him. (And yes, Iím a fan but not super tuned in so I might be wrong.) Parasociality? I guess, maybe. But making up allegations against him has as much creative space to work in as making up tales about the old man in the woods. Vinny was active but in very specific, very measured ways.

Honestly, thatís what I liked about his streams. You got streams of games with jokes and none of the rest of the poo poo that most streamers do, or social media in general. I frankly donít even know how many Twitch subscribers he had or whatever, there wasnít announcements or anything. Dude even has some other person running the uploads to YouTube.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



OwlFancier posted:

As I said earlier, people don't "just forget" about the nature of the relationship between internet personalities and the people who watch them, they are explicitly encouraged to develop parasocial relationships with them. That is a major feature of the business model because that is how monetization happens for the content creators who are largely dependent on people wanting to give them money for no reason. That is what media platforms encourage performers to cultivate because it increases viewer retention.

Giving content creators social power over their followers in the form of perceived relationships is by design. It is how the medium you watch sustains itself. It is what it is selling, that is the product.

It was a good while back but I think Vinny talked about how he got a email from twitch (or youtube?) about how his channel needs more attention and how he could hook more people into forming those relationships to raise his viewership. Recall him saying stuff like that freaks him out.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


https://twitter.com/actuallylichpit/status/1378168374589542400

the vinesauce thing just gets weirder and weirder (one of the people listed as someone who was nearly taken advantage of by vinny that she heroically saved, was in fact blocked by the person making the doc, has contacted them multiple times about trying to get their name/story out of the doc with no response, talked to vinny and vinny was fully supportive and apologetic and did everything they wanted him to)

Endorph fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 6, 2021

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.



Endorph posted:

https://twitter.com/actuallylichpit/status/1378168374589542400

the vinesauce thing just gets weirder and weirder (one of the people listed as someone who was nearly taken advantage of by vinny that she heroically saved, was in fact blocked by the person making the doc, has contacted them multiple times about trying to get their name/story out of the doc with no response, talked to vinny and vinny was fully supportive and apologetic and did everything they wanted him to)

so basically vinny was lovely but genuinely apologized and is trying to help fix stuff but the person who is making collected accusation page is an rear end?

John_A_Tallon
Nov 22, 2000

Oh my! Check out that mitre!


Dapper_Swindler posted:

so basically vinny was lovely but genuinely apologized and is trying to help fix stuff but the person who is making collected accusation page is an rear end?

Sounds like it's someone playing a Linda Tripp to a collection of Monica Lewinskys sort of situation.

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



Person #4 in the document has a small section about talking to other victims, and that's where they bring up the situation with lichpit and try to cast them as a victim. the thread is just about lichpit's view of that situation, where they felt Person #4 was misrepresenting it and have been unable to get anyone involved with the document to remove the portion about them.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
BUT DID ANY OF YOU STOP FOR ONE SECOND TO CONSIDER HOW THIS EFFECTS ME PERSONALLY?! NO YOU DID NOT BECAUSE I AM STUPID AND UNIMPORTANT! GOOD JOB! KEEP IT UP!

Seriously though. Ignore me. For your health.

Endorph posted:

https://twitter.com/actuallylichpit/status/1378168374589542400

the vinesauce thing just gets weirder and weirder (one of the people listed as someone who was nearly taken advantage of by vinny that she heroically saved, was in fact blocked by the person making the doc, has contacted them multiple times about trying to get their name/story out of the doc with no response, talked to vinny and vinny was fully supportive and apologetic and did everything they wanted him to)

Also look at the time stamps. Lichpitís DMs with this person are from five years ago. Looks like thereís some really really old stuff being dug up and misrepresented to go after Vinny.

From what Lichpit says, it looks like Vinny offered platonic friendship and this unnamed person tried to make a ton of hay out of that. Thereís no accusations from Lichpit of Vinny ever crossing any line in any way.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.



John_A_Tallon posted:

Sounds like it's someone playing a Linda Tripp to a collection of Monica Lewinskys sort of situation.

who? i was like 8 or something during Lewinsky scandal.

John_A_Tallon
Nov 22, 2000

Oh my! Check out that mitre!


Dapper_Swindler posted:

who? i was like 8 or something during Lewinsky scandal.

When Clinton was busy sexually harassing various White House aides and volunteers (not just Lewinsky) a third party, Linda Tripp, recorded conversations with Lewinsky about it without Lewinsky's knowledge. She provided the tapes and testimony to reporters. WIthout her the ensuing impeachment would not have happened, and Lewinsky would have been an obscure person like Kathleen Willey (another Clinton abuse victim who later came out about it).

John_A_Tallon fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Apr 6, 2021

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



I mean, might not be the best example because Bill Clinton is actually a big piece of poo poo, and remains so to this day.

But whoever compiled this doc definitely seems like they're trying to misrepresent a ton of poo poo to smear Vinny because of some beef with him that they can't drop, and it feels like the harder people push back the more they dig in.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.



King Vidiot posted:

I mean, might not be the best example because Bill Clinton is actually a big piece of poo poo, and remains so to this day.

But whoever compiled this doc definitely seems like they're trying to misrepresent a ton of poo poo to smear Vinny because of some beef with him that they can't drop, and it feels like the harder people push back the more they dig in.

ok so its probably some KF type bullshit?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


There does seem to be some element of Vinny having had sex with fans five or six years ago but poo poo like 'he gave fans STDs' and 'he sent them harassing messages' seems questionable at best.

IncendiaC
Sep 25, 2011


The more information that comes out, the more this whole Vinny thing leans toward hitpiece IMO.

Between the behind-the-scenes coordination (which is apparently so convoluted nobody knows who owns the VS experiences account or google doc), questionable evidence in the google doc despite said coordination, asking unrelated youtubers to signal boost the initial tweet (most of whom have retracted their retweet and apologized), and straight up misrepresenting one of the alleged victims, it really does feel like the primary goal of the accusations is character assassination rather than helping the victims.

Vinny's statement that he isn't perfect but also "didn't do anything wrong" suggests that it's probable he hooked up with (legal-aged, consensual) fans early on in his streaming career and stopped doing it when he became uncomfortable with it. The google doc is digging up those past relationships and adding their own spin to it in order to deliberately portray him as a manipulative sex-pest sociopath.

(Disclaimer: I've been watching Vinesauce's streams for a couple years now so there's some probably some bias here)

SweetBro
May 12, 2014

Did you read that sister?
Yes, truly a shitposter's post. I read it, Rem.


There's basically two camps people will fall into depending on whether or not they believe that: relationships between celebrities and fans are inherently problematic due to the power imbalanced caused by a difference of status.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


i think creators shouldnt gently caress people who approach them as fans, but also im not gonna say a guy loving a few fans is the worst thing in the world or anything. its 'dude knock that poo poo off' level at worst. its when you get into people talking to fans in their teens that poo poo gets weird, or setting up scenarios/groups solely for the purpose of loving fans.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020


Depends on how they frame it imo, misleading someone into thinking you're interested in a legitimate relationship (like that game grumps guy) when you're just looking for a hookup strikes me as wrong, but I'm sort of a prude so I might be oversensitive.

A Sometimes Food
Dec 8, 2010

I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING



Endorph posted:

i think creators shouldnt gently caress people who approach them as fans, but also im not gonna say a guy loving a few fans is the worst thing in the world or anything. its 'dude knock that poo poo off' level at worst. its when you get into people talking to fans in their teens that poo poo gets weird, or setting up scenarios/groups solely for the purpose of loving fans.

This is where I'm at yeah. If this is all it is I hope Vinny gets through this okay.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Acerbatus posted:

Depends on how they frame it imo, misleading someone into thinking you're interested in a legitimate relationship (like that game grumps guy) when you're just looking for a hookup strikes me as wrong, but I'm sort of a prude so I might be oversensitive.

nah thatd be bad even if you werent a celeb imo, if youre just looking for a hookup be honest about that otherwise youre just lying to someone for sex

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


Acerbatus posted:

Depends on how they frame it imo, misleading someone into thinking you're interested in a legitimate relationship (like that game grumps guy) when you're just looking for a hookup strikes me as wrong, but I'm sort of a prude so I might be oversensitive.

Manipulating people to get sex is absolutely hosed up and it's not prudery to point it out, even if it's not as bad as, say, what Harvey Weinstein did.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~




can't wait for the next hundred accusations within gaming/streaming spaces to be responded to with something along the lines of "it's fake because vinny"

Judge Tesla
Oct 29, 2011



SirSamVimes posted:

can't wait for the next hundred accusations within gaming/streaming spaces to be responded to with something along the lines of "it's fake because vinny"

Well yeah, this is what happens when people weaponize cancel culture, anything and everything is going to be examined under a microscope.

Also people with grudges can do the above and there will always be people going "I knew he/she was a pest!" to seem like they are in the right.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


One of the first people to retweet the accusations and claim to believe them, RedBard, has put out a Google Doc. Basically, they still believe the accusations and don't think the debunkings are convincing enough, and they claim to have listened to the full audio, but they also claim to not have been very close to the situation overall: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F7o88WS7D9QLZhvsHV-3BZ9c1UJgcfQ-j5gnei-CV3E

Fair Bear Maiden fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Apr 6, 2021

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



Nairo's back to uploading videos as a aside.

Seems Samsora admitted guilt and deactivated his account and Zack has been banned from events (from what I gather anyway) so it sounds like that situation got sorted.

E: I don't really believe RedBard at all tbh, seems like a dummy but who knows.

ThisIsACoolGuy fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Apr 6, 2021

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?

RedBard posted:

"that VS isn't Vinny's email icon!" - that's just how yahoo displays most icons

what

a lot of this person's "counter-debunks" are really stupid

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



I say we change the thread title to "Beanyot why you no schut poo poo?!"

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



Kaiser Mazoku posted:

what

a lot of this person's "counter-debunks" are really stupid

It's how yahoo presents icons, I've had V S as his icon in our emails forever. I'd much rather not buy into what they're selling due to the 'dude just trust me' and 'I have nothing to add I don't know' being in there.

BattleMaster
Aug 14, 2000


Avast!

I'm willing to believe the accusations made in the original document (if they were fake I'd think they'd be a lot worse) but this anime youtuber getting deep into it given Vinny's feelings about anime and given 4chan anons posting about how they wanted to cancel vinny a couple of weeks ago is really suspicious.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



BattleMaster posted:

I'm willing to believe the accusations made in the original document (if they were fake I'd think they'd be a lot worse) but this anime youtuber getting deep into it given Vinny's feelings about anime and given 4chan anons posting about how they wanted to cancel vinny a couple of weeks ago is really suspicious.

Do keep in mind 2 of the people in the doc said that they're being misrepresented and they didn't give permission for this- and the person who created it is trying to just do a smear campaign so make of that what you will.

Though hell I could be misremembering on one of them, remember a tweet thread featuring a fan that made a scoot plush for vin talking about her side and how he was good to her with boundaries but I can't seem to find it now.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




None of this inspires confidence in anyone or anything other than that allegations aired on social media are extremely susceptible to weaponization and this is going to be a huge problem in the near future. Even one drop of doubt spoils the whole barrel, and anyone coming forward with allegations in any manner - via Twitter or not - is going to be discounted and ignored because of either intentionally misrepresentative or unintentionally sloppy campaigns.

No matter who ďwinsĒ here, real victims lose. And I think that was the point.

Itís becoming clear that we need structure around allegations of abuse and misconduct. Thatís supposed to be the law...but clearly, the law has failed us.

Strategic Tea
Sep 1, 2012

It's not the red form anymore.
Incidental bones can file under the greens.


TBF the law fails regardless because none of these cases are going to court, let alone prison.

Whoever posted about a reckoning for sex criminals upthread is wrong. Mild inconvenience and loss of ad revenue is not a reckoning.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Yeah, Iím talking about victims of abusive situations going forward, which the law is meant to cover, being discredited by using examples such as this for people with ulterior interests to go ďthis allegation is fake all allegations are fake gently caress these attention seekers etc.Ē.

This would not have become a problem if society and the law actually supported victims instead of shunting them to relying on social media. Clearly someone else has picked up on how this puts victims in a situation where they can be claimed as ďfalse flagsĒ in any context.

Truga
May 4, 2014




Lipstick Apathy

Pollyanna posted:

Itís becoming clear that we need structure around allegations of abuse and misconduct. Thatís supposed to be the law...but clearly, the law has failed us.

laws and cops literally exist to protect the rich and famous lol

i have no idea who vinny is but i'm a dumb optimist and if this just ends up being a lovely smear campaign, imo it'll just show how easy it is to debunk a bunch of fake allegations, so hopefully real ones stick better in the future?

either way social media isn't the medium for that, but most people don't have access to anything else

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Truga posted:

laws and cops literally exist to protect the rich and famous lol

oh my god

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


BattleMaster posted:

I'm willing to believe the accusations made in the original document (if they were fake I'd think they'd be a lot worse) but this anime youtuber getting deep into it given Vinny's feelings about anime and given 4chan anons posting about how they wanted to cancel vinny a couple of weeks ago is really suspicious.
'vinnys feelings on anime?' dude just doesnt seem interested in it, its not like hes railing against it every five seconds lol. im also really not seeing the crossover between 'youtuber who covers an extremely popular medium' and '4chan,' you might as well say because vinny does video game poo poo that makes him bad because 4chan likes video games

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


also any structure you make around allegations and abuse will inevitably be weaponized to push out people who bring up uncomfortable things or accuse people they arent 'supposed' to

see how many people rush to abandon #metoo whenever a dem gets accused of anything

keithy george
Jan 8, 2008


The other layer in this is this new 'forensic' process that also happened with WWE star Velveteen Dream - when recordings of him surfaced, there was a whole week of "You can clearly see this is photoshopped"/ "that's not what the logos look like on my Android" that was all just nonsense, but never the less this was the first round for a big section of the fanbase to decide "Well this is all clearly manufactured". It seems we've moved through that line of arbitrary defence and now it's things like "how does he feel about anime"?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


keithy george posted:

It seems we've moved through that line of arbitrary defence and now it's things like "how does he feel about anime"?
the fun thing about that one is literally any answer could mean anything to anyone depending on what kind of internet brainworms youve got going on so iunno why someone even brought it up

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




I just donít really get why this came out in the first place.

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