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Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything




Fun Shoe

And now one of the heads of Ice Pick Lodge (Pathologic devs) is being accused of being a sex predator.

https://logarto.tumblr.com/post/647731217228267520/i-have-been-given-the-ok-to-share-the-evidence

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Vegastar
Jan 2, 2005

Tigers will do anything for a tuna sandwich.



Pollyanna posted:

I just donít really get why this came out in the first place.

It feels a lot like somebody with a grudge was fishing for legitimate victim stories, as we've seen a number of other times when something comes out against a public figure - once the news breaks and gets around a little you'll usually have a few other people who come forward with their stories of similar behavior that re-enforce the initial accusation.

Get something just credible enough out there and hope there's people out there who have had worse experiences. It's kind of telling that the only things to come from this thus far have been one (two?) of the people just stating that they feel their story is misrepresented in a negative way and nothing else of particular note.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




I guess in that case weíd have to ask whoever first put that info up, and, well...good luck with that.

Sardonik
Jul 1, 2005

if you like my dumb posts, you'll love my dumb youtube channel

Mokinokaro posted:

And now one of the heads of Ice Pick Lodge (Pathologic devs) is being accused of being a sex predator.

https://logarto.tumblr.com/post/647731217228267520/i-have-been-given-the-ok-to-share-the-evidence

Well this certainly explains a lot of the vibes in 'The Void'.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.



Games Idiot Court Jester


Mokinokaro posted:

And now one of the heads of Ice Pick Lodge (Pathologic devs) is being accused of being a sex predator.

https://logarto.tumblr.com/post/647731217228267520/i-have-been-given-the-ok-to-share-the-evidence

Well, gently caress

The Pathologic reddit is taking it fairly well, and also seem to think IPL won't do anything about it. A few people called it an open secret

RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Apr 7, 2021

Maximum Planck
Feb 16, 2012



Vegastar posted:

Get something just credible enough out there and hope there's people out there who have had worse experiences. It's kind of telling that the only things to come from this thus far have been one (two?) of the people just stating that they feel their story is misrepresented in a negative way and nothing else of particular note.

It's difficult to keep this stuff straight. I'm guessing you're referring to this thread, since it's the only one I've seen:

https://twitter.com/actuallylichpit/status/1378168374589542400

Which refers to this part in the document:

Person #4's Statement posted:

She responded to my warning with very little concern and a lot of doubt but she told me she would keep it in mind. Then, she went quiet and blocked me.

She saw their interaction quite differently from person #4, which I think is understandable. She also says the block never happened, so that's not nothing. But as far as I can tell, that's the entirety of it. The rest of person #4's statement isn't in question. Maybe I'm misreading?

Vegastar
Jan 2, 2005

Tigers will do anything for a tuna sandwich.



Maximum Planck posted:

It's difficult to keep this stuff straight. I'm guessing you're referring to this thread, since it's the only one I've seen:

https://twitter.com/actuallylichpit/status/1378168374589542400

Which refers to this part in the document:


She saw their interaction quite differently from person #4, which I think is understandable. She also says the block never happened, so that's not nothing. But as far as I can tell, that's the entirety of it. The rest of person #4's statement isn't in question. Maybe I'm misreading?

I may have also misread it looking again. I guess my point was moreso just that there haven't been other people who felt victimized or had lovely interactions coming forward, which isn't necessarily an exoneration, but also is fairly unusual from what I've seen in these situations.

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Clear off, fatso, this is a respectable establishment




Sardonik posted:

Well this certainly explains a lot of the vibes in 'The Void'.

Aw gently caress I love The Void though, I think it's partly about the abuse and constriction of women being hosed up and wrong and a mind-killer. Ugh.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


RBA Starblade posted:

The Pathologic reddit is taking it fairly well, and also seem to think IPL won't do anything about it. A few people called it an open secret

I checked that thread and it was very much mixed, but then again it's Reddit, so I suppose it could be worse.

Definitely saw the sentiment of "these accusations are often bullshit" too, with people citing Dan Avidan I think, and even Chris Avellone (which is just ????? considering how many people came out about it and the fact that we have evidence of it, but I guess some people are that attached to their memories of Planescape: Torment).

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Fair Bear Maiden posted:

I checked that thread and it was very much mixed, but then again it's Reddit, so I suppose it could be worse.

Definitely saw the sentiment of "these accusations are often bullshit" too, with people citing Dan Avidan I think, and even Chris Avellone (which is just ????? considering how many people came out about it and the fact that we have evidence of it, but I guess some people are that attached to their memories of Planescape: Torment).

For both of them the accusations as a whole were true and they admitted to it.

Avidan got away relatively clean by admitting the sexual encounters happened but said they were 100% consensual and apologized for any hypothetical mistakes, which shifted the narrative away from the issues of his love-bombing & ghosting behavior.

I'm not sure why Avellone is mentioned, as he basically bunkered down in an alt-right gaming website after being run out of everywhere else, and has admitted to everything he did, albeit crying for sympathy claiming it was because of his alcoholism. Of all the gaming icons to stan for he went from all time greatest to washed up wet brain rear end in a top hat in the space of a few years, and it's 100% because his behavior caught up with him.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




I mean, it depends on what the accusations are. Being paranoid and not wanting word to get out about your hookups is significantly different from chasing teenagers, grooming people, and stalking your flings.

Also I donít see how ghosting is even like, worth mentioning.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Pollyanna posted:

I mean, it depends on what the accusations are. Being paranoid and not wanting word to get out about your hookups is significantly different from chasing teenagers, grooming people, and stalking your flings.

Also I donít see how ghosting is even like, worth mentioning.

Striking up a rapport with someone who has a huge emotional and personal attachment to you as a performer, being sweet and emotional to them constantly, talking about how special and great they are, talking about love and deep connections, finally having sex with them, and then blocking/ignoring them on all social media afterwards?

Yeah, that's absolutely worth mentioning. That's something that if anyone does is a immensely lovely thing to do to a person, much less a celeb doing it to his fans.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




pentyne posted:

Striking up a rapport with someone who has a huge emotional and personal attachment to you as a performer, being sweet and emotional to them constantly, talking about how special and great they are, talking about love and deep connections, finally having sex with them, and then blocking/ignoring them on all social media afterwards?

Yeah, that's absolutely worth mentioning. That's something that if anyone does is a immensely lovely thing to do to a person, much less a celeb doing it to his fans.

This is completely new to me. When did he do this?

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
BUT DID ANY OF YOU STOP FOR ONE SECOND TO CONSIDER HOW THIS EFFECTS ME PERSONALLY?! NO YOU DID NOT BECAUSE I AM STUPID AND UNIMPORTANT! GOOD JOB! KEEP IT UP!

Seriously though. Ignore me. For your health.

Pollyanna posted:

This is completely new to me. When did he do this?

I think Pentyne was saying Dan Avidan did that, not Vinny.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Arivia posted:

I think Pentyne was saying Dan Avidan did that, not Vinny.

Oh. Yeah, I don't know anything about Dan. For Vinny, if the document is accurate (which we have no idea if it is or not), it was mutually no-strings-attached from the start as far as I know. I loving hate talking about people's sex lives though so

Somfin
Oct 25, 2010




Nap Ghost

pentyne posted:

For both of them the accusations as a whole were true and they admitted to it.

Avidan got away relatively clean by admitting the sexual encounters happened but said they were 100% consensual and apologized for any hypothetical mistakes, which shifted the narrative away from the issues of his love-bombing & ghosting behavior.

Yeah, moving the focus from a creepy behaviour warning to a legality technicality meant that a bunch of people were like "well I guess he's fine and the allegations were all faked" as opposed to "drat Dan's kinda hosed up and now I don't want to listen to him talk about sex anymore."

Extremely pro-gamer move, I'm sure a bunch of other creeps are taking note and I can't wait for the next "well technically it was legal" defense

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Somfin posted:

Yeah, moving the focus from a creepy behaviour warning to a legality technicality meant that a bunch of people were like "well I guess he's fine and the allegations were all faked" as opposed to "drat Dan's kinda hosed up and now I don't want to listen to him talk about sex anymore."

Extremely pro-gamer move, I'm sure a bunch of other creeps are taking note and I can't wait for the next "well technically it was legal" defense

The og twitter post dropping the big words "grooming" and "pedophilia" was what made the allegation take off like a rocket in the first place, once those weren't true all the actual issues were completely ignored.

The twitter crowd wants big flashy scandals at the expense of sanity, so one of the first attempts to pivot was "well, a 20 year old can't really consent to sex with a celeb" which fell extremely flat and sort of ended the online discussion in most places.

Now the "technically legal" argument is going to be the defacto line used to shut down any accusers if they aren't alleging something underage, or physical/sexual abuse.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Man, the Vinny thing is kinda loving me up. Not so much because Iím attached to Vinny, even though I do like him as a streamer, but because Iím dying to know whatís really going on. So many things are just incredibly odd about it and thereís some weird fuckiní fallout going on now, not to mention how lopsided the response is compared to...well, basically any allegation.

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!



Vinny has always been an extremely private person and now that sensitive information has come out about his personal life, it isn't surprising that he's not really addressing it besides, "I did nothing wrong and am entitled to my privacy. That's all I'm going to say about it."

It would be a pretty significant 180 for him to address it any more than that.

I think someone else said it in this thread that the information is something that shouldn't have come out and almost seems gross the extent of the knowledge is out there?

In the event Vinny did commit a crime or something just above the line of being a sex creep, it's noteworthy in the event of abuse, or assault but otherwise- a lot of pillow/bedroom talk that has been exposed too far and wide for ??? purposes.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



It really just seems like this was private correspondence between people who slept together or even just had some flirtatious back-and-forth online. None of it is damning, nothing suggests anything predatory (Vinny is as much a celebrity as like... Stuart Ashen, even if he has fans), it shouldn't have even come out. Even the parties involved didn't want it to come out and apologized to Vinny.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Yeah the only possible concern I can see is ďslept with fansĒ and itís intentionally unclear whether thatís even what happened. It seems to be not fans, but people he connected with via the Vinesauce community.

Sleeping with someone who knows who you are != sleeping with a fan, basically.

Also the HPV thing which as someone with a modicum of medical knowledge I can assure you is not on the level of ďintentionally lied and spread STDs aroundĒ, what the gently caress.

At most Iíd consider Vinny potentially guilty of using the business email to hook up which is just kinda .

graventy
Jul 27, 2006




Fun Shoe

Yeah I bet there are a ton of people in the Vinesauce community who aren't fans.

Violet_Sky
Dec 5, 2011



Fun Shoe

At this point I think its an op by 4chan people trying to prove CANCEL CULTURE BAD OKAY

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




I donít think itís 4chan, or that the doxxing is necessarily intended to discredit the method, but itís certainly making it look bad.

Violet_Sky
Dec 5, 2011



Fun Shoe

I thought there was some edgy 4chan stream group called jowss that had something against Vinesauce.

Maximum Planck
Feb 16, 2012



Vinny's the streamer I've watched the most. I've probably watched more of his videos than any other youtuber, even. So I get it! I like his videos too, and I understand the impulse to go "the document is probably fake, but if it's real, it's not that bad, actually". It'd be nice to be certain that he's "one of the good guys". It'd be nice to get some kind of a permission slip to keep watching his videos. But are we going to get either of these? Could they even theoretically exist?

Uncertainty can be unpleasant, especially if you're invested in something. But uncertainty isn't bad. It's okay to be uncertain.

King Vidiot posted:

Even the parties involved didn't want it to come out and apologized to Vinny.

Could you elaborate? I don't remember seeing anything like this in the thread.

Captain Sheepy
Nov 22, 2013

My apologies!


Maximum Planck posted:

Could you elaborate? I don't remember seeing anything like this in the thread.

A few prominent Youtuber names that initially retweeted the document (Mandalore, ShammyTV, a few others) all very quickly retracted their endorsements of it and officially posted formal apologies on the matter, questioning it's validity.

There's also the GeePM thing, which is a whole other bag of worms. He (formerly associated with Vinesauce, long story) had not only retracted his retweet of the document, which he did in mere minutes of it being posted, made his own Google document. Not apologizing for anything related to it mind you, but rather half-assedly trying to defend his own accusations of harboring and defending child groomers who acted as his twitch mods and streaming buddies for the past three years after loads of people pointed out the hypocrisy. Didn't do him any good: he only received further backlash and evidence revealed against him, panicked, locked his account, and blocked 98% of his followers.

There's a lot to talk about there on it's own, including a lot of misinformation being spread about it around too via the game of telephone that normally happens on a platform like twitter. It's only mildly, if at all, related to the Vinesauce situation but it's worth mentioning.

edit: I probably should've mentioned the misinformation I mentioned is in regards to GeePM's expulsion from the Vinesauce team and not the allegations against him.

Captain Sheepy fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 8, 2021

Maximum Planck
Feb 16, 2012



Good to know, but isn't that a different thing altogether? When I see "parties involved", it doesn't make me think of signal boosters, but the people who appear in the statements or wrote them.

Captain Sheepy
Nov 22, 2013

My apologies!


Well I was originally going to mention the statements from LichPit regarding that, but then I noticed it was posted already only a few posts ago so I figured you meant something else. Sorry.

I guess the gist of it is that those being contacted both in the screenshots at account #4, and the woman being mentioned in the story of visiting Vinny's home were both taken out of context and presented without their consent. Lichpit and someone else (I forget who, sorry) have been demanding for like five days now to have their presence removed from the document and have since not heard a word from whoever posted it. Protecting the victims you see, etc.

Actually I don't know if this is the same person I'm thinking of but:

https://twitter.com/Ushimama_/status/1378243548395409411
https://twitter.com/Ushimama_/status/1378451139008466947

Before this proudnugget person locked their account, they were adamant in classifying Jemma as a "victim" and when she challenged the whole notion, proudnugget just flat out started calling Jemma a liar. Language you want to be using when talking to someone you consider a victim, I guess. Though, I admit I don't have screenshots or anything like that of proudnugget's posts from this argument from before they locked their account. Jemma claims she was approached by a vague someone if she had any damning info on Vinny a few short years prior and then warned him about it.

I don't know, does that clear anything up? Because a lot of this is old hat at this point and not a whole lot of new information has come out in like a few days other than your typical internet detective theory crafting.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



I don't think we should discount statements just because of the motives around how they surfaced necessarily, as a general stance. But as we've discussed before, i don't see a lot in the statements themselves. Nerdy online guy is bad at relationships and dating, is emotional/paranoid/erratic and flighty, according to out of context, explicitly one sided information from the parties that were spurned.

Frankly, thats their fuckin' business and I don't feel like I have any right to be a part of their personal relationships, nor cast judgement for being a bad boyfriend/hookup if that really is the extent of it. I can see how that would piss his exes off, and why that would make people close to him mad (it is extremely annoying when a friend or family member is a lovely partner), but I don't know the circumstances of their relationship and consensual relationships between adults are flatly none of my business.

There is a line between public abuse allegations and celebrity gossip, and I feel like this is on the wrong side of the line, personally.

Cygni fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Apr 8, 2021

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Thereís literally no coherent motivation for the doxxing aside from trying to make Vinny look bad.

Also if I recall Jemmaís posts he has a stalker whoís involved in writing the document, so thatís a thing.

Captain Sheepy posted:

I don't know, does that clear anything up? Because a lot of this is old hat at this point and not a whole lot of new information has come out in like a few days other than your typical internet detective theory crafting.

No new information has come out because nothing has actually happened since the last stream. Whatever momentum the allegations had has completely fizzled out, and thatís a pretty good sign of a nothingburger. Plus, the narrative has solidified around ďthis is likely bullshit and if any part of it is true then itís really not a big deal nor is it our business to knowĒ, so the system is at rest by now.

SweetBro
May 12, 2014

Did you read that sister?
Yes, truly a shitposter's post. I read it, Rem.


Fair Bear Maiden posted:

Manipulating people to get sex is absolutely hosed up and it's not prudery to point it out, even if it's not as bad as, say, what Harvey Weinstein did.

This isn't strictly a response against you, but I have a bit of an issue with people using the term manipulate in this discourse and you just happened to be the first person I saw bring it up in this context. It's fairly frustrating how easily the term "manipulate" gets tossed around for things that aren't reaaally manipulation. It seems like it's being used as catch-all term for basically any lovely social adult behavior as a way to hyperbolize someone's actions by overstating the intentionality and persistence of the behavior. It also ends up as a vector to cast non-lovely actions in a negative light, like confronting someone with the threat of breaking off a relationship because they violated a boundary.

SweetBro
May 12, 2014

Did you read that sister?
Yes, truly a shitposter's post. I read it, Rem.


Mokinokaro posted:

And now one of the heads of Ice Pick Lodge (Pathologic devs) is being accused of being a sex predator.

https://logarto.tumblr.com/post/647731217228267520/i-have-been-given-the-ok-to-share-the-evidence

gently caress. Well for what it's worth as a native Russian speaker I can confirm that the google translate seems to accurately reflect the text. Original Russian seems a bit odd at places, but that's probably more related to me not having actively spoken the language in over a decade.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Phone call looking more sus than before now.

https://youtu.be/GJKLZRgBxz4

SweetBro posted:

This isn't strictly a response against you, but I have a bit of an issue with people using the term manipulate in this discourse and you just happened to be the first person I saw bring it up in this context. It's fairly frustrating how easily the term "manipulate" gets tossed around for things that aren't reaaally manipulation. It seems like it's being used as catch-all term for basically any lovely social adult behavior as a way to hyperbolize someone's actions by overstating the intentionality and persistence of the behavior. It also ends up as a vector to cast non-lovely actions in a negative light, like confronting someone with the threat of breaking off a relationship because they violated a boundary.

Manipulation is a scary word, so itís useful for getting people to pay attention.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


SweetBro posted:

This isn't strictly a response against you, but I have a bit of an issue with people using the term manipulate in this discourse and you just happened to be the first person I saw bring it up in this context. It's fairly frustrating how easily the term "manipulate" gets tossed around for things that aren't reaaally manipulation. It seems like it's being used as catch-all term for basically any lovely social adult behavior as a way to hyperbolize someone's actions by overstating the intentionality and persistence of the behavior. It also ends up as a vector to cast non-lovely actions in a negative light, like confronting someone with the threat of breaking off a relationship because they violated a boundary.
I would describe saying you are invested in a longterm relationship just because you think it might get a woman to have sex with you, when you aren't actually interested in a longterm relationship, and ghosting her once you've gotten the sex, despite the claim you were interested in a longterm relationship, as 'manipulation.'

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Endorph posted:

I would describe saying you are invested in a longterm relationship just because you think it might get a woman to have sex with you, when you aren't actually interested in a longterm relationship, and ghosting her once you've gotten the sex, despite the claim you were interested in a longterm relationship, as 'manipulation.'

Is this Dan or Vinny cause according to the docs the latter was very specific about it being a hookup.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Pollyanna posted:

Is this Dan or Vinny cause according to the docs the latter was very specific about it being a hookup.
dan, but also the quote of the person i was quoting was speaking generally

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Endorph posted:

dan, but also the quote of the person i was quoting was speaking generally

True, but your post clearly referenced a real-world example and itís hard to tell who the topic is sometimes. Thanks for clarifying.

SweetBro
May 12, 2014

Did you read that sister?
Yes, truly a shitposter's post. I read it, Rem.


Endorph posted:

I would describe saying you are invested in a longterm relationship just because you think it might get a woman to have sex with you, when you aren't actually interested in a longterm relationship, and ghosting her once you've gotten the sex, despite the claim you were interested in a longterm relationship, as 'manipulation.'

Sure, I agree with that, if that was the actual intent of the subject. But the point is that by using the term "manipulation" as part of the discourse you've baked actual malice into the premise of your statement. Which may not be accurate and certainly not healthy to the discourse. Adult relationships are messy and there are plenty non-malicious reasons why one person might believe a hook up would lead to a relationship but doesn't. Anything from honest miscommunication, to simply changing your mind for whatever reason after you've become intimate. It is difficult with certainty to know what someone's intent was.

I don't think there's a hard line of what is and isn't manipulation. But IMO, the way I see people talk about manipulation is as if it is a consistent pattern of malicious and intentional behavior, a part of one's identity if you will. The way I often see people accuse others of manipulation especially "in the discourse" is "I blame person X for the actions me or someone took that we regret". Especially in a lot of "group" dramas that occur, where people constantly accuse of setting people against each other, shifting the blame from the person who did the bad thing to them, to the person they want to be responsible for the bad thing happening to them. Probably as some sort of coping mechanism to not want admit that someone they held in high regard chose to hurt them (speaking from personal experience here). When in reality, sometimes people just get tired of yo' poo poo.

SweetBro fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Apr 9, 2021

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


yes but there are also a lot of cases where someone is literally manipulative and chiding people for using the word 'manipulative' to refer to someone who is manipulative is not likely to win you any points even if i can see your point in some cases, lol

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