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Andrast
Apr 21, 2010



Byolante posted:

Look at how this happened. There was no due process, there was no period of finding the truth. ZQ posted some stuff on her twitter. Immediately his entire industry blacklisted him and booted him from the studio he founded. If the people who facilitated this thought they hadn't done something unconscionable there wouldn't have been a mad rush to try and scrub the internet of their actions.

yeah why would someone delete their twitter when they start getting death threats from insane people

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Violen
Jul 25, 2009

Well obviously it did happen in the end, but this was not pleasant...


Please retire your oddish avatar you don't deserve it.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Byolante posted:

Look at how this happened. There was no due process, there was no period of finding the truth. ZQ posted some stuff on her twitter. Immediately his entire industry blacklisted him and booted him from the studio he founded. If the people who facilitated this thought they hadn't done something unconscionable there wouldn't have been a mad rush to try and scrub the internet of their actions.

Are you suggesting Zoe Quinn literally has the games industry mind controlled and they do whatever she says?

Maybe the people involved talked to each other and came to decisions based on the information presented to them?

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



Byolante posted:

Look at how this happened. There was no due process, there was no period of finding the truth. ZQ posted some stuff on her twitter. Immediately his entire industry blacklisted him and booted him from the studio he founded. If the people who facilitated this thought they hadn't done something unconscionable there wouldn't have been a mad rush to try and scrub the internet of their actions.

yes i'm sure they got on twitter, saw that tweet and immediately went "well i'm not gonna do any extra investigating into this, if it's a tweet it must be true, we have to fire him now" instead of like, talking to others who worked with him and corroborating those stories.

Did you read the message that the co-developers of NitW wrote? They clearly had enough inside knowledge and talked to people who confirmed those suspicions that it wasn't just "welp accusations time to cut bait", it stands to reason that maybe the other people who decided that it was no longer OK to collaborate with him did the same thing.

Byolante
Mar 23, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


OwlFancier posted:

Are you suggesting Zoe Quinn literally has the games industry mind controlled and they do whatever she says?

Maybe the people involved talked to each other and came to decisions based on the information presented to them?

Zoe Quinn is a bit part player in a seriously sick and toxic community built on destroying people for likes.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



quote from people who worked with him for years, for reference:

quote:

I'm not going to root through everything in there and give a line by line analysis, but I'll say that enough of the allegations are extremely plausible and just about all of it we've corroborated with other sources. I'm not going to list those out here, this isn't a trial, and we don't /owe/ the internet a comprehensive accounting of why so many people who have known Alec for years have looked at the accusations and believed them.
Seriously, what you see on twitter isn't representative of real life. It's just what makes it into posts. When people who have years-long real life experience with the guy, people who knew him in different situations, locations, ages, and contexts, all say the same thing, you can assume there's more to this than you'd know from outside the situation, taking it in 280 characters at a time.

Whatever happened years ago, this week a contractor working for Alec, whom we know and trust, has come forward with her own experiences with Alec.Others have talked about how Alec's conduct towards women was something whispered around at game events. A woman I've known for a while got in touch with us this week talking about how she's been told many times not to be alone in a room with him. Men have gotten in touch about working with Alec and the things that happened to them there. There are other things, things from people we trust, things you'll probably never hear about. But honestly just being a really lovely boss, as detailed by Albertine, is probably enough for us to separate from him alone. To say nothing of the far more serious allegations out there. Multiple people are afraid to run into the guy at different conferences. We were with him at some of those conferences. Now knowing that people were afraid to approach us and say hello eats at me.

The things that Alec did during the bad times were worse than we knew, and he's still being abusive in other ways to those around him. We didn't know. We feel like idiots. We feel betrayed. We're sad and angry. We put in the work with him during those really bad times. It's hard to talk about, and everyone really wants us to talk about it. They want detailed accountings of every aspect. Some people want to know exactly what we knew and when so they can figure out who around him is most complicit. Some people want us to give them hard evidence, as if such a thing was even possible, or as if it would appropriate to give them in the first place. Some people randomly doubt all of this because nobody had Alec arrested, which shows a weird understanding of the reality of human relationships and abuse that I can only assume comes from experience of the world via online chatter and a list of how things should work. The idea that there's a foolproof system in place that can stop this, can riddle it out, can tell us exactly who is and isn't guilty, a system which can set all this right. But it doesn't work like that in real life. Some of the demand for more info stems from the idea that if something is put out in public then any interested party is owed as much information as they want to work out their own stance and to judge ours. But at least for us the only reason we're working this out in public is because we have to. It was out there, and we've had to respond to it. Like we have to tell you now. And it's been like stabbing myself in the stomach every day to have to type words like this. To sum up- this isn't some "guilty til proven innocent" or "social media mob" thing for us. There's years of real life context to this, involving lots of people who aren't even online or public about this, and the fact that some folks just found out about it this week doesn't mean it began there. It's just when it became public.

Go The gently caress Away, Byolante

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Again you're completely ignoring even the faintest possibility that the people involved talked to each other and came to a decision to stop associating with the dude based on that. You know, like I sincerely hope you might do if someone told you a coworker was sexually assaulting people?? Like the people involved literally said they did???

Like if you're railing against making blind assumptions about people you're coming at this assuming that literally everyone was out from the start to murder this dude which is really drat weird.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.





Byolante posted:

Look at how this happened. There was no due process, there was no period of finding the truth. ZQ posted some stuff on her twitter. Immediately his entire industry blacklisted him and booted him from the studio he founded. If the people who facilitated this thought they hadn't done something unconscionable there wouldn't have been a mad rush to try and scrub the internet of their actions.

Byolante posted:

Zoe Quinn is a bit part player in a seriously sick and toxic community built on destroying people for likes.

Okay I edited my previous post to say I'd be more polite, but what the gently caress are you on about? How the hell do you it affects a person to be the catalyst for an entire movement of misogynist, rage driven men? To be the nexus, the focus for their fury and hate? Do you think anyone, anyone, would expose themselves to that demon core of vitriol without a good reason? For likes? Keep Zoë Quinn's name out of your loving mouth.

Zas
Oct 7, 2006



you know what's hosed up though is that the guy was supposedly getting better.

No. 1 Apartheid Fan
Aug 20, 2005



Byolante posted:

Zoe Quinn is a bit part player in a seriously sick and toxic community built on destroying people for likes.

That sounds pretty serious. You should take it to the police if you have evidence that someone conspired to kill Alec Holowka and ruin his career and stop irresponsibly throwing it around online.

I know neither of us wants vigilantes to take things into their own hands.

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea


It's sad that one person with bad opinions in this thread made pretty much everyone in it so hostile. It's already ruined.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Again what alternative are you suggesting because you're literally saying that you can't publicly accuse someone of doing bad things because they might die if you do and that would be your fault.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.





cubicle gangster posted:

It's sad that one person with bad opinions in this thread made pretty much everyone in it so hostile. It's already ruined.

Nah we can recover. Everyone expected this, it's catharsis and inevitability and I think it just kinda needs to happen.

SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!

(note: I am not a psychologist, my only insight is being diagnosed as clinically depressed, who had family take him to the hospital ER, because I didn't see a way out and was scared what I was going to do to myself if I didn't).

I think it's because they didn't see a way out of their situation. They likely thought two things. 1) "I'm a horrible person who's done horrible things to people. I don't deserve to live.", combined with 2) "I'll never be able to work again, I'll never be able to get past this. I can't handle this." That, combined with everyone cutting ties with him, reinforcing those two facts for days on end, made suicide seem like the only way out of the situation.

(again, I'm not trying to diagnose Alec, I think it's sad)

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



cubicle gangster posted:

It's sad that one person with bad opinions in this thread made pretty much everyone in it so hostile. It's already ruined.

I'm still baffled that people can't resist responding to the shitposter en masse. The internet has been around long enough, there's no excuse anymore

SirFozzie posted:

(again, I'm not trying to diagnose Alec, I think it's sad)

Yeah I think the fact that Alec killed himself, along with some of the other information his sister shared, indicates a lot about his mental state that was probably a major contributor to the reason he was abusing in the first place. He seems like less of a malicious abuser and more like someone who really needed therapy or mental help

RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Sep 1, 2019

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



cubicle gangster posted:

It's sad that one person with bad opinions in this thread made pretty much everyone in it so hostile. It's already ruined.

counterpoint: it's great that it was just one dude and everyone else called him out for being the idiot he so clearly is.

RazzleDazzleHour posted:

I'm still baffled that people can't resist responding to the shitposter en masse. The internet has been around long enough, there's no excuse anymore

i mean yeah that dude is posting in bad faith but there might be people out there reading this topic who are leading towards the way that dude thinks and even if the obvious shitposter isn't going to change their opinion, people reading this who don't know a lot about it might be swayed

Ojo
Jul 4, 2003

Well... when I said that I had a plan, I meant that I have to plan... the plan.



To try to reset the hostility a little... if you believe that these accusations are made up, what would it take for you to believe the women reporting their experiences?

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea


Ojo posted:

To try to reset the hostility a little... if you believe that these accusations are made up, what would it take for you to believe the women reporting their experiences?

You're trying to reset the hostility so it starts over, yeah?

GrandpaPants
Feb 13, 2006


Free to roam the heavens in man's noble quest to investigate the weirdness of the universe!



I don't know if it's within the purview of the roundup, but didn't Randy Pitchford (of noted embezzling scheme Gearbox Entertainment) have child porn on his computer along with various other scummy things? Did that just sorta get dropped?

Ojo
Jul 4, 2003

Well... when I said that I had a plan, I meant that I have to plan... the plan.



cubicle gangster posted:

You're trying to reset the hostility so it starts over, yeah?

Hah, okay, poor phrasing, that's not my intention.

Lifeglug
Oct 23, 2005




Ojo posted:

To try to reset the hostility a little... if you believe that these accusations are made up, what would it take for you to believe the women reporting their experiences?

The moon on a stick.

Byolante
Mar 23, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


DC Murderverse posted:

counterpoint: it's great that it was just one dude and everyone else called him out for being the idiot he so clearly is.


i mean yeah that dude is posting in bad faith but there might be people out there reading this topic who are leading towards the way that dude thinks and even if the obvious shitposter isn't going to change their opinion, people reading this who don't know a lot about it might be swayed

I'm sure people unaware of the situation are going to be swayed to the side of people saying innocent people killing themselves is a small price to pay for maybe making reporting abuse more effective.

Ojo posted:

To try to reset the hostility a little... if you believe that these accusations are made up, what would it take for you to believe the women reporting their experiences?

If all the nameless people alluded to actually came out to a reputable journalist, even as nameless sources, and some level of fact checking was done prior to the accusations being made public. There are lots of good journalists working in the industry who can professionally handle a situation like this, just look at how Cecelia D'Anastasio handled the sexual harrassment at Riot story.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.





GrandpaPants posted:

I don't know if it's within the purview of the roundup, but didn't Randy Pitchford (of noted embezzling scheme Gearbox Entertainment) have child porn on his computer along with various other scummy things? Did that just sorta get dropped?

Didn't he have it on a thumbdrive along with a bunch of confidential stuff and then he lost it at a coffee shop or something?

It's like the polar opposite of the guy involved in LOTR leaving the script at café in Auckland or whatever it was.

SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!

I think that we all agree that Byolante is a "horrible jerk".

And Horrible Jerks, when detected, end up on Ignore Lists.

Let them shout out their idiotic takes to the uncaring ether.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009


YOU CAN STOMP US!

YOU CAN SQUASH US!

BUT YOU'LL NEVER EVER STOP US!


Dude was guilty as sin and everyone knows it.

Maybe don't sexually abuse a big bunch of women if you don't want people calling you a sex pest.

No. 1 Apartheid Fan
Aug 20, 2005



Byolante posted:

innocent people

So you're calling the accusers liars. Can you quantify that with evidence?

Like you, I'm deeply concerned with proving accusations.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



GrandpaPants posted:

I don't know if it's within the purview of the roundup, but didn't Randy Pitchford (of noted embezzling scheme Gearbox Entertainment) have child porn on his computer along with various other scummy things? Did that just sorta get dropped?

He had video of a girl from a webcam site (who are supposed to be 18+) on his laptop. Her username was something indicating she was barely 18 but I wouldn't put any stock in that because "BARELY LEGAL" it's basically the porn equivalent of clickbait. His business partner, who Randy had already filed a lawsuit against, accused him of having weird pedophilia parties which is totally separate from the laptop fiasco. Guy's a loving weirdo and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nuggets of truth in what the lawsuit said in regards to him keeping huge bonuses for himself, but pedophilia is taken pretty seriously so if he hasn't been arrested I'd say they probably haven't found anything.

Black Griffon posted:

Didn't he have it on a thumbdrive along with a bunch of confidential stuff and then he lost it at a coffee shop or something?

Worse, in a loving Medieval Times

Byolante
Mar 23, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


GrandpaPants posted:

I don't know if it's within the purview of the roundup, but didn't Randy Pitchford (of noted embezzling scheme Gearbox Entertainment) have child porn on his computer along with various other scummy things? Did that just sorta get dropped?


Black Griffon posted:

Didn't he have it on a thumbdrive along with a bunch of confidential stuff and then he lost it at a coffee shop or something?

It's like the polar opposite of the guy involved in LOTR leaving the script at café in Auckland or whatever it was.

Unfortunately the case is a civil suit and will probably get settled out of court so we will never know, but the accusation from what I remember is a thumb drive with clips4sale customs mixed in with confidential business data was left in a bar after randy got tanked and forgot to take his poo poo with him.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


So... lots of people coming out to say they were abused: bad.

Lots of people coming out to a journalist I like who the repeats it: good?

I am not seeing the distinction. Other than finding a journalist is another hurdle and it cuts people off from direct methods of communication and possibly makes the accusations less visible.

Byolante
Mar 23, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:

So you're calling the accusers liars. Can you quantify that with evidence?

Like you, I'm deeply concerned with proving accusations.

I was referring to this post my friend

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.





RazzleDazzleHour posted:

He had video of a girl from a webcam site (who are supposed to be 18+) on his laptop. Her username was something indicating she was barely 18 but I wouldn't put any stock in that because "BARELY LEGAL" it's basically the porn equivalent of clickbait. His business partner, who Randy had already filed a lawsuit against, accused him of having weird pedophilia parties which is totally separate from the laptop fiasco. Guy's a loving weirdo and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nuggets of truth in what the lawsuit said in regards to him keeping huge bonuses for himself, but pedophilia is taken pretty seriously so if he hasn't been arrested I'd say they probably haven't found anything.


Worse, in a loving Medieval Times

I think someone found out the alleged pedo parties were just this weird nerdy amateur theater Randy and his wife hosted at their house. Bohemian Grove for Gamers.

Fake edit: I had to google "owl party rich people" because I forgot the name of Bohemian Grove.

Lifeglug
Oct 23, 2005




OwlFancier posted:

So... lots of people coming out to say they were abused: bad.

Lots of people coming out to a journalist I like who the repeats it: good?

I am not seeing the distinction. Other than finding a journalist is another hurdle and it cuts people off from direct methods of communication and possibly makes the accusations less visible.

“An anonymous source?” The gamer excretes sweatily “This is just all made up lies!”

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009


YOU CAN STOMP US!

YOU CAN SQUASH US!

BUT YOU'LL NEVER EVER STOP US!


Yes, it's absolutely the innocent people that are the first to have multiple women accusing then of sexual harassment, followed by their co-workers adding that they knew they were creeps.

Byolante
Mar 23, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


OwlFancier posted:

So... lots of people coming out to say they were abused: bad.

Lots of people coming out to a journalist I like who the repeats it: good?

I am not seeing the distinction. Other than finding a journalist is another hurdle and it cuts people off from direct methods of communication and possibly makes the accusations less visible.

You missed the part where I said that the journalist would do some level of fact checking prior to publication. Finding a reputable voice who has investigated where practicable the accusations then publishes them to a masthead. The accusers shouldn't ever have to be revealed to the public or the accused but there is a level of legitimacy there that some posts on twitter by their nature don't have.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Like what do you just want to maybe accuse people of sexual assault a bit quieter? Maybe don't make it quite so visible? Launder it through some news site nobody reads so there's less pressure to do anything about it?

Again really do not see how putting a journalist in the middle actually does anything other than possibly those things.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Byolante posted:

You missed the part where I said that the journalist would do some level of fact checking prior to publication. Finding a reputable voice who has investigated where practicable the accusations then publishes them to a masthead. The accusers shouldn't ever have to be revealed to the public or the accused but there is a level of legitimacy there that some posts on twitter by their nature don't have.

How is lots of people publicly making accusations "less legitimate" than having some journalist publish them?

Like that's not how sources work. You don't make sources more believable by having them go through some intemediary, you do exactly the opposite.

Sure if the people making the accusations wanted a bit more protection that's a viable route but if they're willing to do it publicly then good for them? They have chosen (or, y'know, as much as it's a choice in the absence of other options) to put themselves on the line to increase the validity of their claim.

Also if you're suggesting that nobody should be named that really smacks of pushing it under the rug. "Some sexual assault happend, can't say who, can't say where, but it did, trust me" is not something that is going to achieve anything, and you know that.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Sep 1, 2019

Ojo
Jul 4, 2003

Well... when I said that I had a plan, I meant that I have to plan... the plan.



OwlFancier posted:

So... lots of people coming out to say they were abused: bad.

Lots of people coming out to a journalist I like who the repeats it: good?

I am not seeing the distinction. Other than finding a journalist is another hurdle and it cuts people off from direct methods of communication and possibly makes the accusations less visible.
Personally I'd also be inclined to say that the fact that his colleagues did their own informal investigation and came to the conclusion that they believed the allegations is more convincing to me than getting a journalist involved. They know him personally, it would certainly be easier for them professionally and emotionally to say "Nope, not our buddy here!" Similarly with the accusations against Alexis Kennedy, his female coworkers quit pretty quickly after the allegations against him came to light.

A lot of these allegations come out as a result of whispered warnings spreading. Personally as someone who's been through abuse, I've felt a need to warn people in the past, and urgency has been a major factor in that.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



Black Griffon posted:

I think someone found out the alleged pedo parties were just this weird nerdy amateur theater Randy and his wife hosted at their house. Bohemian Grove for Gamers.

Fake edit: I had to google "owl party rich people" because I forgot the name of Bohemian Grove.

Yeah, basically this was what Randy originally said in his own defense. He also said they video taped every one if the police wanted to see them, so I'm guessing that combined with the whole him still working thing means they didn't really find anything to substantiate those claims. I think a big reason people were so ready to believe the pedophilia claims is because of Randy's loving insane "talk about barely-legal porn on a Podcast" defense

Ojo posted:

Personally I'd also be inclined to say that the fact that his colleagues did their own informal investigation and came to the conclusion that they believed the allegations is more convincing to me than getting a journalist involved.

I almost made the first response to this thread but wanted to wait a little to make sure it didn't go rear end-up (should have been more patient), and my original post read something like "some of the stories, especially the ones against Alec, are so well-corroborated only the biggest dregs are going to say "BUT WHERES THE PROOF" but you're going to get Those People in any argument"

RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Sep 1, 2019

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Also how is "get a journalist to investigate it privately and then publish what they think" remotely due process? That's literally worse than doing it all in public loudly and messily. Most concepts of justice require it to be done in public.

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Foo Diddley
Oct 29, 2011

Do you party?


Hi is this the thread where we go to bat for dead rapists

Look, that innocent boy would be alive today if all his victims had just kept their goddamn mouths shut

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