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tithin
Nov 14, 2003

Just a little bit of tweaking here...



SirFozzie posted:

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/s...656018261086214

The Threadnaught is a good way to see Vic's "defense" gets shredded.

There's a *lot* of stuff in this.

Is there a more condensed version where he's not dunking on anime avatars? I'd prefer to read the legal stuff, not the dunking on the unintelligent.

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RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



tithin posted:

anime avatars

unintelligent

listen here mister

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Surely the correct and reasonable position is:

1. Quinn et al. coming forward is demonstrably necessary because literally all other attempts to resolve the problem of systemic sexual abuse have not worked, the judicial system is provably incapable of handling reports of sexual assault or preventing it, and the fact that it keeps happening indicates that there is a systemic inability to deal with the problem internally and "quietly"

2. Public statement of wrongdoing is literally the least radical form of direct action possible, so doing it represents the most minimal and tentative foray into trying to resolve the situation in ways that aren't just the victims banging their collective heads against the provably inadequate alternatives while more abuse happens in the interim.

3. In light of 1 and 2, it is clearly not reasonable to blame the victims for the accused killing themselves at the first sign of social oppobrium for their actions.

4. Despite that, the victims being emotionally intelligent human beings means they're going to feel guilty about it regardless and that combined with the pile of psychopathic misogynist morons that infest gaming all coming out on twitter to dogpile them is a very good reason why they might not want to be online right now. If anyone in the situation deserves sympathy it's them. They came together to try and make a positive change, and are now suffering for it unjustly.

The_White_Crane
May 10, 2008


Ojo posted:

Similarly with the accusations against Alexis Kennedy, his female coworkers quit pretty quickly after the allegations against him came to light.

A lot of these allegations come out as a result of whispered warnings spreading. Personally as someone who's been through abuse, I've felt a need to warn people in the past, and urgency has been a major factor in that.

Re Kennedy, I was talking to a friend who used to work at Failbetter about this whole shitstorm, and apparently even when she worked there a few years ago she was quietly warned about him.

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007



They're called whisper networks. Groups of people who quietly warn each other about things without working to upset the actual organization.

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 11, 2012

This particularly rapid unintelligible patter isn't generally heard, and if it is, it doesn't matter.





The_White_Crane posted:

Re Kennedy, I was talking to a friend who used to work at Failbetter about this whole shitstorm, and apparently even when she worked there a few years ago she was quietly warned about him.
This is the part that really sucks, to me. The problem with whisper networks are the people who are never told. People who worked for Failbetter, or were friends with people who'd worked with Kennedy, are warned. People who don't have connections go in blind. They wind up interacting with people they would have been warned against if they weren't new to the industry.

e: There are, and have been for centuries, huge risks to coming out publicly with accusations. The reason it's called "Me TOO" is that it happens to more than one person, and each of them thinks they're the only victim and it's somehow their fault.

Evil Badman
Aug 19, 2006

I wanna talk about bird lube, NOW.



James Portnow of Extra Creditz is also an abuser, a story that came up last year, but more have come out corroborating: https://twitter.com/Cavni/status/1166963668254199808

Violen
Jul 25, 2009

Well obviously it did happen in the end, but this was not pleasant...


OwlFancier posted:

Surely the correct and reasonable position is:

1. Quinn et al. coming forward is demonstrably necessary because literally all other attempts to resolve the problem of systemic sexual abuse have not worked, the judicial system is provably incapable of handling reports of sexual assault or preventing it, and the fact that it keeps happening indicates that there is a systemic inability to deal with the problem internally and "quietly"

2. Public statement of wrongdoing is literally the least radical form of direct action possible, so doing it represents the most minimal and tentative foray into trying to resolve the situation in ways that aren't just the victims banging their collective heads against the provably inadequate alternatives while more abuse happens in the interim.

3. In light of 1 and 2, it is clearly not reasonable to blame the victims for the accused killing themselves at the first sign of social oppobrium for their actions.

4. Despite that, the victims being emotionally intelligent human beings means they're going to feel guilty about it regardless and that combined with the pile of psychopathic misogynist morons that infest gaming all coming out on twitter to dogpile them is a very good reason why they might not want to be online right now. If anyone in the situation deserves sympathy it's them. They came together to try and make a positive change, and are now suffering for it unjustly.

5. I find it hard to read ingenuously into people who come at these matters from a frame of 'well all I'm saying is I want to have an equitable conversation about how x, y, z can go both ways' when statistically speaking they overwhelmingly don't. Seriously, this faux air of reasonable discourse worried about the consequences of potentially false accusations that ignores the evidenced reality of where the priority problem lies drives me loving insane. No one needs to argue in the margins for this one.

Violen
Jul 25, 2009

Well obviously it did happen in the end, but this was not pleasant...


Also, since whisper networks are being discussed, this is a really good thread relating to them:

https://twitter.com/Delafina777/sta...786877661179904

Ojo
Jul 4, 2003

Well... when I said that I had a plan, I meant that I have to plan... the plan.



Violen posted:

5. I find it hard to read ingenuously into people who come at these matters from a frame of 'well all I'm saying is I want to have an equitable conversation about how x, y, z can go both ways' when statistically speaking they overwhelmingly don't. Seriously, this faux air of reasonable discourse worried about the consequences of potentially false accusations that ignores the evidenced reality of where the priority problem lies drives me loving insane. No one needs to argue in the margins for this one.

I really, really, just want to believe that it comes from a place of ignorance. Which is probably dumb, but it's much less discouraging than the alternative.

Anticheese
Feb 13, 2008

$60,000,000 sexbot




Violen posted:

Also, since whisper networks are being discussed, this is a really good thread relating to them:

https://twitter.com/Delafina777/sta...786877661179904

I'm pretty leery about how she's omitting the T in LGBT and specifying only trans men.

Tendales
Mar 9, 2012


Anticheese posted:

I'm pretty leery about how she's omitting the T in LGBT and specifying only trans men.

I think she's including trans women in "women". Trans men are only specified as opposed to cis men, not to erase trans women.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



Byolante posted:

I'm sure people unaware of the situation are going to be swayed to the side of people saying innocent people killing themselves is a small price to pay for maybe making reporting abuse more effective.

Go The gently caress Away

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



i'm not going to say that dude killing himself was good, because it wasn't. regardless of who he hurt he was clearly a person in need of help himself and suicide is a tragedy because it means that you can never really make amends, but also if you think that the people coming forward with their stories are responsible for his death you need to fix how you think about suicide

and if you are Byolante you also need to fix your computer by throwing it into a lake and never posting again

Drakes
Jul 18, 2007

Why my bullets no hit?

DC Murderverse posted:

i'm not going to say that dude killing himself was good, because it wasn't. regardless of who he hurt he was clearly a person in need of help himself and suicide is a tragedy because it means that you can never really make amends, but also if you think that the people coming forward with their stories are responsible for his death you need to fix how you think about suicide

and if you are Byolante you also need to fix your computer by throwing it into a lake and never posting again

Theres nothing wrong with coming out forward but throwing it up on social media isn't really the solution. It just stirs up followers and has everyone dogpiling with hateful comments to both sides.

Dude lost his job from an online accusation like that, deemed guilty just like that by how many people? Companies cutting off ties with him to protect themselves from the rabid masses. No one cared to hear his side of the story, a million people read he was this terrible abuser so thats how he must have been.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Again the company literally said they talked to people and decided to cut him off based on direct conversations with the victims. Stop making poo poo up.

Drakes
Jul 18, 2007

Why my bullets no hit?

Did the company talk with the guy that killed himself?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


He worked there... So one would presume yes they did interact with him at some point.

Like what does he get to say "actually no I'm fine" and they have to agree with him?

Sulphagnist
Oct 10, 2006

WARNING! INTRUDERS DETECTED



I've been thinking about privilege within outed predators because of the suicide and how some predators are able to skate by and even rehabilitate themselves without any contrition or remorse (e.g. Roman Polanski, Louis CK, Al Franken). If you are white, rich and famous enough, you always have a way back into the fold. Holowka probably didn't analyze this too rationally, but even a celebrated indie developer won't have the same privileges as those more famous and wealthier figures, and the indie games industry is perhaps better at making abusers unemployable than the film industry or politics.

Der Shovel
Dec 26, 2003

Pause post!


SirFozzie posted:

(note: I am not a psychologist, my only insight is being diagnosed as clinically depressed, who had family take him to the hospital ER, because I didn't see a way out and was scared what I was going to do to myself if I didn't).

Seconding this. I've also been living with clinical depression most of my life, and it was only diagnosed ~5 years ago when someone finally pushed me to get help.

I still clearly remember a time back in high school, when I finally couldn't balance the whole "can't go to class/do school work because everything is fuzzy static wrapped in a suffocating lead cloth" act anymore and was staring down failing (the Finnish equivalent of) a mandatory AP math class. At worst this would have meant me graduating some months later after retaking the class the next year ie. a very big who gives a gently caress in the grand scheme of things, but I remember lying in bed until 4 am and stressing over how I had finally literally ruined my life by being a worthless piece of poo poo, and how the only reasonable path forward was to kill myself.

It doesn't take a whole loving lot to push a mentally ill person over the edge, and by all accounts Alec had severe mental issues. It's a horrible loving situation all around, both for Alec's victims, Alec's friends and family, and yes, to even Alec himself.

It would be easy to say that blame for Alec's suicide lies with Zoe Quinn, or other people who accused him, but it really doesn't IMO. A person with mental illnesses doesn't always respond and react in rational ways, and while mentally ill people can't always help how they act, that doesn't excuse their behaviour much less mean it has to be covered up. Sexism and harassment are a huge problem in the games industry, and it's largely because it constantly keeps getting excused, covered up, just accepted as a cost of doing business or because there are so many loving sexists and sex pests in the industry that it enables them all to function through sheer inertia.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.



Sulphagnist posted:

I've been thinking about privilege within outed predators because of the suicide and how some predators are able to skate by and even rehabilitate themselves without any contrition or remorse (e.g. Roman Polanski, Louis CK, Al Franken). If you are white, rich and famous enough, you always have a way back into the fold. Holowka probably didn't analyze this too rationally, but even a celebrated indie developer won't have the same privileges as those more famous and wealthier figures, and the indie games industry is perhaps better at making abusers unemployable than the film industry or politics.
It loving blows my mind that Nick Robinson is getting millions of views on YouTube videos. He's the most noticeable (to me) example of "just came back and nobody noticed."

Drakes
Jul 18, 2007

Why my bullets no hit?

OwlFancier posted:

He worked there... So one would presume yes they did interact with him at some point.

Like what does he get to say "actually no I'm fine" and they have to agree with him?

Just listen and hear him out, this whole thing has been out for less than a week. See what his story was and hear from friends/former co-workers,. Everything seems like it happened pretty quick, like a bunch of hastily made decisions, like it'd be easier to cut him off and leave him to the internet piranhas.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Maybe they felt they had a pretty good idea in the time thus far.

DC Murderverse posted:

quote from people who worked with him for years, for reference:

quote:

I'm not going to root through everything in there and give a line by line analysis, but I'll say that enough of the allegations are extremely plausible and just about all of it we've corroborated with other sources. I'm not going to list those out here, this isn't a trial, and we don't /owe/ the internet a comprehensive accounting of why so many people who have known Alec for years have looked at the accusations and believed them.
Seriously, what you see on twitter isn't representative of real life. It's just what makes it into posts. When people who have years-long real life experience with the guy, people who knew him in different situations, locations, ages, and contexts, all say the same thing, you can assume there's more to this than you'd know from outside the situation, taking it in 280 characters at a time.

Whatever happened years ago, this week a contractor working for Alec, whom we know and trust, has come forward with her own experiences with Alec.Others have talked about how Alec's conduct towards women was something whispered around at game events. A woman I've known for a while got in touch with us this week talking about how she's been told many times not to be alone in a room with him. Men have gotten in touch about working with Alec and the things that happened to them there. There are other things, things from people we trust, things you'll probably never hear about. But honestly just being a really lovely boss, as detailed by Albertine, is probably enough for us to separate from him alone. To say nothing of the far more serious allegations out there. Multiple people are afraid to run into the guy at different conferences. We were with him at some of those conferences. Now knowing that people were afraid to approach us and say hello eats at me.

The things that Alec did during the bad times were worse than we knew, and he's still being abusive in other ways to those around him. We didn't know. We feel like idiots. We feel betrayed. We're sad and angry. We put in the work with him during those really bad times. It's hard to talk about, and everyone really wants us to talk about it. They want detailed accountings of every aspect. Some people want to know exactly what we knew and when so they can figure out who around him is most complicit. Some people want us to give them hard evidence, as if such a thing was even possible, or as if it would appropriate to give them in the first place. Some people randomly doubt all of this because nobody had Alec arrested, which shows a weird understanding of the reality of human relationships and abuse that I can only assume comes from experience of the world via online chatter and a list of how things should work. The idea that there's a foolproof system in place that can stop this, can riddle it out, can tell us exactly who is and isn't guilty, a system which can set all this right. But it doesn't work like that in real life. Some of the demand for more info stems from the idea that if something is put out in public then any interested party is owed as much information as they want to work out their own stance and to judge ours. But at least for us the only reason we're working this out in public is because we have to. It was out there, and we've had to respond to it. Like we have to tell you now. And it's been like stabbing myself in the stomach every day to have to type words like this. To sum up- this isn't some "guilty til proven innocent" or "social media mob" thing for us. There's years of real life context to this, involving lots of people who aren't even online or public about this, and the fact that some folks just found out about it this week doesn't mean it began there. It's just when it became public.

Go The gently caress Away, Byolante

Just cos you don't like the outcome doesn't mean the process has to be wrong.

Waterfall Watcher
Dec 17, 2018

How to ruin improve game sessions & family ties with one simple question.

-Would this be better if I used poison?


I think this thread has turned from #MeToo to #WhatdoyoufeelaboutdatAlecguy?
Nevertheless I feel some sympathy for the guys family since suicide is a hard thing to happen for anyone.
If you've read the twitter and the posts made from his colleagues it's crystal clear that he was a abuser in the past that got help but returned to his bad habits.

I get where people defending him are coming from that the slight, slight, SLIGHT chance that he was innocent and the effect of witch hunting can do to someone whose livelihood is very centered on his online reputation but this guy has no one, not friends or even family willing to against the idea that he abused several people in the past.
It could've been done theoretically better by getting journalists involved but it would be a longer process that could just lead to more abuses from Alec.

I haven't gotten down to looking into that cultist simulator one, I'm really hoping it's a huge misunderstanding because the guys a great writer and I enjoyed all of his games. :

Drakes
Jul 18, 2007

Why my bullets no hit?

OwlFancier posted:

Just cos you don't like the outcome doesn't mean the process has to be wrong.

Yeah I feel the process went through maybe dangerous down the line. It'll be more of a symptom of social media if anything, ostracizing people doesn't blow over well. This time its someone taking their life, what if someone reacts differently?

The part about how long its been known bothers me too, why did it have to go to social media like that? Do companies just not give a poo poo about spending time and resources on settling things? Alot of it reeks like no one really caring and just wanting quick solutions to things.

egg tats
Apr 3, 2010


OwlFancier posted:

He worked there... So one would presume yes they did interact with him at some point.

I can't pull the tweet right now, because the only person I know for sure that retweeted it was Zoe Quinn, but there's a chance they didn't, because the dudes own employees hadn't heard from him in days as of Thursday.

they would have been correct even in that case since the evidence was actually overwhelming

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009


YOU CAN STOMP US!

YOU CAN SQUASH US!

BUT YOU'LL NEVER EVER STOP US!


Gonna write on the topic of #metoo in gaming:

It's an objectively good thing. If you're afraid of it, maybe you shouldn't have been abusing people for years. No one's getting fired due to a single unsubstantiated claim, get real you Sealioning creep.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Drakes posted:

Yeah I feel the process went through maybe dangerous down the line. It'll be more of a symptom of social media if anything, ostracizing people doesn't blow over well. This time its someone taking their life, what if someone reacts differently?

The part about how long its been known bothers me too, why did it have to go to social media like that? Do companies just not give a poo poo about spending time and resources on settling things? Alot of it reeks like no one really caring and just wanting quick solutions to things.

Because that's literally how institutional problems work. Everyone is "oh well I've only heard rumours and I don't want to be unfair blah blah" and the abuser gets endless benefits of the doubt until a bunch of people come out in a very public space and say unequivocally that they're a poo poo, and then concrete action happens.

It is not a choice between dealing with it discreetly or dealing with it publicly, it's a choice between continuing to fail to deal with it discreetly as it has been in probably every aspect of society at this point, and dealing with it publicly because that's the only remaining option.

Your choice is not between "oh maybe someone might react badly" and a perfect, consequence free way, it's between continuing abuse and the risk of reactions you might not like.

To put it bluntly, yes, suicide is acceptable collateral damage in the conflict here, because people have been suffering for years because of the complete and total inefficacy of all less forceful approaches.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Drakes posted:

Yeah I feel the process went through maybe dangerous down the line. It'll be more of a symptom of social media if anything, ostracizing people doesn't blow over well. This time its someone taking their life, what if someone reacts differently?

The part about how long its been known bothers me too, why did it have to go to social media like that? Do companies just not give a poo poo about spending time and resources on settling things? Alot of it reeks like no one really caring and just wanting quick solutions to things.

Companies are very hesitant to openly deal with situations like this because it's super goddamn bad PR to have to come out and admit that you had a serial sex pest on your payroll for a while and either let it pass unnoticed or knew about it and did nothing. Often the problem is either shoved under the rug as not critical(especially if the abuser is important/entrenched enough), the complainers/victims are silenced in some way(either gently in a "watch out for this guy but don't talk about him" sort of way or in a more direct "fired or transferred" way if it becomes disruptive), or at the very best it's dealt with on the down low("So and so is leaving the company to pursue other opportunities!"), which often leads to the abuser simply setting up shop somewhere else.

Sometimes the only outlet that actually reveals to the world that "Yes, this person is an abuser" is to trumpet it out in public outside of "normal" channels. Doing so might drag the abuser's name through the mud, but it's never something a victim can undertake lightly because daring to out an abuser usually paints a target on your forehead and as stated upthread provides no material gain for the victim besides catharsis. Public condemnation is one of the only things that can force a company to take action on something like this, because doing nothing after a public reveal looks worse than admitting you had a sex pest on staff.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Even if the company isn't engaging in active arse covering, like I said people will side with the abuser even in good faith, they might know them, they might not individually want to rock the boat, they might not want to seem unfair or risk the person being ostracised without proof. All reasonable in isolation but systemically function to make people practically immune from consequences without concerted public action against them.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.





Just to clarify my position: I absolutely hate the idea of collateral damage, it's an awful thing and it's pretty obvious that no one is "fine" with it, but to believe that the justice system as an alternative does less damage is horrifically naive. The collateral damage of leaving this poo poo up to the "proper authorities" is far more gruesome.

The police won't help you, the courts won't help you, the press won't help you. Who the gently caress are you (not referring to anyone in particular, like OwlFancier just above me) to tell these women that they're doing something wrong by taking it into their own hands?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Yeah I find it hard to believe that this is the first death as a result of sexual assault in the industry, it's just probably the first you'd know about.

egg tats
Apr 3, 2010


Black Griffon posted:

The police won't help you, the courts won't help you, the press won't help you. Who the gently caress are you (not referring to anyone in particular, like OwlFancier just above me) to tell these women that they're doing something wrong by taking it into their own hands?

in her book Zoe Quinn discusses the process of trying to sue her rear end in a top hat ex, and describing it as a kafkaesque nightmare doesn't even begin to do it justice. and that was a case where the rear end in a top hat ex was spearheading a massive harrasment campaign with a stated goal of having Zoe commit suicide.

its a way to open yourself up to intense, deeply uncomfortable scrutiny, be told repeatedly that you're the one at fault, and be forced to keep your abuser in your life for years. court system ain't work for this

Drakes
Jul 18, 2007

Why my bullets no hit?

OwlFancier posted:

To put it bluntly, yes, suicide is acceptable collateral damage in the conflict here, because people have been suffering for years because of the complete and total inefficacy of all less forceful approaches.

This time. I feel if you ostracize a someone , you just leave them alone and resentful. I could also see it leading to them doing harm to others if they feel like they've been abandoned by everything in the world.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Which would be terrible if they were well adjusted members of society beforehand and not sex predators.

StabMasterArson
May 31, 2011



Vando
Oct 26, 2007

I want to be one of
those madmen


It makes me really uncomfortable when people bring up the 'why don't people think of the effect accusations have on abusers?' angle because it sets off a massive alarm bell about their own behaviour, because why would you be so invested in discouraging the testimony of victims?

Like if the above applies to you in any way please consider your own behaviour, and recognise that while it's tempting to believe you've moved on from things you may have done in the past, it's not for you to decide when your responsibility ends.

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

Anyone saying "twitter mobs" are not the "right way" to go about this is concern trolling - in their minds there is no "right way" and that's the entire point. Same goes for anyone pretending to care about how this has ruined any chance of the perpetrators getting the help they need to reform their ways - I'd be very surprised if they're in favour of a progressive approach to rehabilitative justice in any other areas of the law.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




Vando posted:

It makes me really uncomfortable when people bring up the 'why don't people think of the effect accusations have on abusers?' angle because it sets off a massive alarm bell about their own behaviour, because why would you be so invested in discouraging the testimony of victims?

Like if the above applies to you in any way please consider your own behaviour, and recognise that while it's tempting to believe you've moved on from things you may have done in the past, it's not for you to decide when your responsibility ends.

I think many people just grow up hearing "innocent until proven guilty" and think it's a noble idea (which it is, sure) while having never experienced the countless ways our justice systems fail to punish, and in fact protect, abusers in reality. So rather than conclude that the institutions you were always taught are fair and objective are flawed, or that many abusers will never face consequences for their actions, it's much easier to lash out at the voices giving you this uncomfortable case of cognitive dissonance right now than reconsider your basic assumptions about life. At least that's what I'd like to believe rather than reflexively assuming everybody protecting abusers has committed some violation in their own lives, which is just too depressing an outlook even if it's true of the particular person you're addressing.

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Vando
Oct 26, 2007

I want to be one of
those madmen


exquisite tea posted:

I think many people just grow up hearing "innocent until proven guilty" and think it's a noble idea (which it is, sure) while having never experienced the countless ways our justice systems fail to punish, and in fact protect, abusers in reality. So rather than conclude that the institutions you were always taught are fair and objective are flawed, or that many abusers will never face consequences for their actions, it's much easier to lash out at the voices giving you this uncomfortable case of cognitive dissonance right now than reconsider your basic assumptions about life. At least that's what I'd like to believe rather than reflexively assuming everybody protecting abusers has committed some violation in their own lives, which is just too depressing an outlook even if it's true of the particular person you're addressing.

I'd like to think this too but for some reason they are particularly vocal about this particular scenario above all others

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