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RottenK
Feb 17, 2011

Sexy bad choices



mycot posted:

Sonicfox's whole thing was getting into the scene when he was extremely young so he pretty much has no window to be the predator in this situation (compared to being one of the disadvantaged).

They're popular and have a lot of fans, if Sonicfox wanted to diddle kids they have ample opportunity to do so by now, just like any other person with a big fan following.

Really hope SF doesn't have any nasty poo poo like that on their conscience, I get that a lot of people find their antics annoying but they always seemed like a good person to me.

Acerbatus posted:

Maybe, but I'm also not entirely sure how they're going to go forward. Does someone need to start a new EVO thing, or can they kick out the old guy, or...?

Kick MrWiz out and try to start over and earn trust again seems like the most obvious rote. I think they already did the former. Heard Tony Cannon is gonna be the leader now?

RottenK fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jul 3, 2020

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Orv
May 4, 2011


My pithy clone SF comment was because they seem entirely wholesome and hopefully for once that is not a milkshake duck waiting in the wings.

Shoenin
May 29, 2013

Everynight I wake up Screaming.
(and beating the dragon)

Mike Watson literally told everyone on stream that Wizard is a pedo, he just couldn't name a name for obvious reasons. Glad that stupid sonovabitch finally got exposed and booted.


Also the ZeRo saga continues:
https://twitter.com/zerowondering/s...6362486786?s=20

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Acerbatus posted:

Maybe, but I'm also not entirely sure how they're going to go forward. Does someone need to start a new EVO thing, or can they kick out the old guy, or...?
EVO's a corporate entity and nobody has like, any personal attachment to Mr. Wizard except people who were around 20 years ago. They've already given him the boot. I think just that and a stronger commitment to dealing with poo poo like this in future would be enough.

And SonicFox is fine and probably a decent person I just find them really annoying.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jul 3, 2020

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


SonicFox is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns, by the way. Figure you probably just didn't know, but useful to know going forward if you talk about them!

Shoenin
May 29, 2013

Everynight I wake up Screaming.
(and beating the dragon)

SonicFox seems like a fine eccentric fellow, just kind of obnoxious. He seems like a cool fella and paying his way through college by beating people up in fighting games is incredibly based and awesome.
Still don't like him Icing Go1 in 2018 evo finals though, that was lame. Other than that he's always been a swell fellow if a bit obnoxious, w/e everyone's got their foibles.

not a bot
Jan 9, 2019



ZeRo went full Lowtax with the defence.

Pylons
Mar 16, 2009


You could probably stop talking about SonicFox unless they get allegations against them.

mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

Fair Bear Maiden posted:

SonicFox is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns, by the way. Figure you probably just didn't know, but useful to know going forward if you talk about them!

My mistake, even though I've already been quoted I'll edit.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Also I know most of you were joking but 'everyone is bad except this person, hope they dont Milkshake Duck' is like the polar opposite of the lesson that should be taken here.

Orv
May 4, 2011


Endorph posted:

Also I know most of you were joking but 'everyone is bad except this person, hope they dont Milkshake Duck' is like the polar opposite of the lesson that should be taken here.

That was me being pointlessly pithy independent of the actual problem going on here which is more my option that is not just screaming eternally, sorry about that, I'll knock it off.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



not a bot posted:

ZeRo went full Lowtax with the defence.

I'm not really seeing it, but might just be naive/stupid. He gave a timeline of events, showed conversation logs, video recordings and more. The tweet that tossed him under the bus was a single line of 'he did this to me' followed up with another tweet referencing a sailor moon meme.

I kind of want to hear her response though before I fall on a side.

Hub Cat
Aug 3, 2011

Trunk Lover



ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

I'm not really seeing it, but might just be naive/stupid. He gave a timeline of events, showed conversation logs, video recordings and more. The tweet that tossed him under the bus was a single line of 'he did this to me' followed up with another tweet referencing a sailor moon meme.

I kind of want to hear her response though before I fall on a side.

His timeline doesn't prove the things she is saying are impossible(they were in the place together for a period of time) and most of his rebuttal boils down to:

"I don't remember doing those things" Not proof he didn't do those things, it's not even a denial
"She still acted friendly/cordial towards me after the period she is saying I did those things" Goes without saying why this is meaningless. This is what all the screenshots are
"It would have been impractical for me to do those things because of a general lack of privacy" Impractical isn't impossible and others in the house might not have acknowledged the harassment for what it was as they were all kids or young adults.

So it ends up being an extensive rebuttal that doesn't actually prove anything but implies she is a lying liar that lies and victims don't come forward for fun.

Edit: “You were showing me explicit Craigslist ads of sex workers and hentai ”
"I don’t understand if this part is a joke I randomly pulled out to make fun of M2K or something and she happened to see it accidentally, but looking back through our entire conversation logs, I never shared a single picture with her of this nature nor is there a single log of her ever mentioning it."

Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Jul 3, 2020

not a bot
Jan 9, 2019


ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

I'm not really seeing it, but might just be naive/stupid. He gave a timeline of events, showed conversation logs, video recordings and more. The tweet that tossed him under the bus was a single line of 'he did this to me' followed up with another tweet referencing a sailor moon meme.

I kind of want to hear her response though before I fall on a side.

Yes, it's the whole showing a few conversation logs which prove nothing that's iffy here. He says he doesn't remember doing anything that is alleged and proceeds to posts logs without context and a screencap of a video which has nothing to do with it.

To elaborate: Right at the beginning he says he doesn't want to attack her in any way even though the whole post is trying to establish her as someone untrustworthy and lying. The next thing he says he's open to admitting he did things which made her uncomfortable, but he doesn't do any of that in the post. Instead he says he doesn't recall (note, no denial here) and then there's this bit:

quote:

“You were showing me explicit Craigslist ads of sex workers and hentai ”

I don’t understand the context of this nor have any recollection of this. Craiglist is not a website I really use

Everyone who reads that understands the context and thinking "I don't even use Craigslist" is some sort of proof is stupid. He's obviously trying to muddy the waters here. Same goes for the conversation logs as well, they don't prove anything he wants them to.

The whole thing reads like a textbook case. It's normal she didn't say anything when they were living in the same house. It's normal they also used messaging apps to communicate. It's normal it took many years until she said anything. What is not normal is the long-rear end post with a whole lot of red herrings thrown in.

not a bot fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jul 3, 2020

Hypocrisy
Oct 4, 2006
Lord of Sarcasm



Shoenin posted:

Mike Watson literally told everyone on stream that Wizard is a pedo, he just couldn't name a name for obvious reasons. Glad that stupid sonovabitch finally got exposed and booted.


Also the ZeRo saga continues:
https://twitter.com/zerowondering/s...6362486786?s=20

https://twitter.com/katietwtlonger/...2435776517?s=20

And continues.

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007





She doesn't have screens of the worst allegations but what she does have shows pretty obvious grooming.

Tweet comments full of internet detectives trying to prove that it's fake because it has the wrong Windows taskbar or something.

Roluth
Apr 22, 2014


Seems like a lot of the old Smash 4 old guard has been accused now. How in the world was those events so poorly handled for this to be this rampant?

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 11, 2012

This particularly rapid unintelligible patter isn't generally heard, and if it is, it doesn't matter.





Roluth posted:

Seems like a lot of the old Smash 4 old guard has been accused now. How in the world was those events so poorly handled for this to be this rampant?

It happens in every single industry/school/gathering where adults have unlimited access to, and power over, children. See: the Catholic sex-abuse scandals, various boarding-school scandals, Hollywood, the music industry, on and on and on.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



That's all understandable, I feel like a big reason I found the first accusation so hard to believe is just because of how flippant Jackie was.

Just "Hey Zero you did a bad thing" then a sailor moon meme. There was no proof he did, no evidence etc and the tacked on meme just made it read as a "I don't care that much" kinda thing, so when he types up a whole house tour and shows records of what happened it's just hard for me to go 'wow what a monster he didn't prove a thing'. A guilty until proven innocent situation and it just makes me wonder what you'd have to do to defend yourself against accusations if that's not enough.

(Since then Jackie deleted the meme post apparently and this second accusation came out so I'm not going to try to defend Zero further. I'm just tired of literally every content creator/name I was interested in turning out to be terrible)

E: For whatever record there is I've 100% believed every single *other* post right away. Hers is the only one that had me kinda doubting the validity


E2: Is there anything that can be done about Sky? It feels like 90% of these stories took place at his house and he just deflects with 'man i dunno how it keeps happening at my place nothin I could of done'.

ThisIsACoolGuy fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jul 3, 2020

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007




ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

E2: Is there anything that can be done about Sky? It feels like 90% of these stories took place at his house and he just deflects with 'man i dunno how it keeps happening at my place nothin I could of done'.

You ban him from events. These aren't courts of law, you don't need to meet some reasonable doubt standard or anything, so you go "hey this guy has been enabling lovely/sexist/illegal behavior and we don't want that in our community." If you feel some overwhelming need to be "fair," you can make it a probationary thing where he can come back in two or three years so long as there hasn't been any more accusations or misconduct.

Pretty obvious these communities need to clean house, and the creeper-adjacent people should probably get swept out along with the rest just to be safe.

not a bot
Jan 9, 2019


ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

so when he types up a whole house tour and shows records of what happened it's just hard for me to go 'wow what a monster he didn't prove a thing'. A guilty until proven innocent situation and it just makes me wonder what you'd have to do to defend yourself against accusations if that's not enough.

But here's the thing: He didn't show records of what happened. He showed and said some things which have nothing to do with the accusations and tried to pass himself off as not trying to undermine her while doing so as well as saying he could have done stuff to make her uncomfortable but then saying he couldn't have done so because there were so many other people. The whole text is a massive red flag.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

That's all understandable, I feel like a big reason I found the first accusation so hard to believe is just because of how flippant Jackie was.

Just "Hey Zero you did a bad thing" then a sailor moon meme. There was no proof he did, no evidence etc and the tacked on meme just made it read as a "I don't care that much" kinda thing, so when he types up a whole house tour and shows records of what happened it's just hard for me to go 'wow what a monster he didn't prove a thing'. A guilty until proven innocent situation and it just makes me wonder what you'd have to do to defend yourself against accusations if that's not enough.
how dare they not perform their accusation in the manner that i prefer. furthermore,

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Also everyone posting 'aww man, I'm so sad a youtuber i watched two videos from in 2017 is a bad person ;-;' is a moron. nobody gives a poo poo about your faux-guilt, nobody gives a poo poo about how sad this is making you, and this isn't about you.

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Clear off, fatso, this is a respectable establishment




Fallen Rib

What always reads as suspicious is that he says things like 'I can't imagine I would do that because X' or 'the privacy was so bad, nobody would X' instead of just stating outright 'This did not happen, I didn't do X'. People get a mental block about just outright lying sometimes and they'll hedge that way.

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 11, 2012

This particularly rapid unintelligible patter isn't generally heard, and if it is, it doesn't matter.





Ubisoft says change starts today.

We'll see.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



Endorph posted:

how dare they not perform their accusation in the manner that i prefer. furthermore,

Don't do this, it's very stupid.

https://twitter.com/zerowondering/s...001662628265984

He wants to talk privately which I don't think anyone thinks is a good thing.

not a bot
Jan 9, 2019


ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Don't do this, it's very stupid.

Nah, that's a big thing why abusers are allowed to continue.

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007




ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Don't do this, it's very stupid.

No, they're right. You need to give accusers the benefit of the doubt. You are not a judge, you are not a lawyer, this is not a court of law, and we are not determining whether or not someone is going to prison. So all of the "innocent until proven guilty" bullshit doesn't remotely apply, and you need to not jump to immediately questioning the accuser because they didn't follow what you personally believe is the ideal script for sharing their trauma.

Women don't accuse randomly for no reason. They face significant further trauma and abuse when they come out about these things, and the least you can do is hear them openly and not start ripping into their story, even if you don't want to believe what they're saying because of positive associations with the accused.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



Which is why I've believed everyone that's come forth first and foremost. I've never defended Nairo, D1, Keitaro literally any of the people that got outed because I want to stand with victims. I don't think it's wrong to find some accusations suspect because people can lie.

Like for better or worse let's assume Zero is innocent (with the recent stuff that came out I'm not saying he is, this is purely hypothetical now), how the hell is he supposed to defend himself from a single sentence? I don't see a winning move from the people in this thread because tension is high with all the stuff coming out. Is he supposed to just ignore it? Call the person a liar? I'm genuinely curious.

ThisIsACoolGuy fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jul 3, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Which is why I've believed everyone that's come forth first and foremost. I've never defended Nairo, D1, Keitaro literally any of the people that got outed because I want to stand with victims. I don't think it's wrong to find some accusations suspect because people can lie.

Like for better or worse let's assume Zero is innocent (with the recent stuff that came out I'm not saying he is), how the hell is he supposed to defend himself from a single sentence?
Here's a better question:

Why on God's green earth would someone loving lie about this, about one of the most beloved and popular people in a popular esport, after a year away from the scene? Why is your first instinct to try and figure out 'how he could defend himself' instead of 'what possible motivation could she have to lie?' Go ahead and look at the replies to her tweets. That's what happens. To every single accuser. Ever. Regardless of proof. The Bill Cosby accusers got tons of death threats even after he was proven guilty in a court of law, even after multiple people came out to verify the stories, even after the media industry as a whole basically erased any proof of him ever existing.

Again, I want to make this clear. Regardless of any proof you present, regardless of what happens, regardless of what the accused person does, even if they admit their guilty publicly and immediately and make no attempt to downplay it? That is still what happens. And often much worse. People lose jobs for accusing people. People lose family. People are murdered. People are victimized further.

Do false accusations happen? Obviously, with outside motivation or pressure, either because the possible reward outweighs the risk or because they aren't thinking clearly, or because they have some reason to believe that they will be believed more than usual. Nobody wakes up one day and decides 'im gonna accuse one of the most popular people in my sphere, for kicks.'

Because look at this poo poo. Who would want this? And saying 'you don't think Zero is innocent' is pretty worthless when you're still inherently forcing us to accept a framework in which he is. I refuse to engage in that hypothetical.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jul 3, 2020

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA



I wanted to watch SonicFox wreck poo poo at EVO this year, I was looking forward to it

I imagine that every single one of those accusers also wanted to see that

But like, predators have to loving go. Believe women.

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007




ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Which is why I've believed everyone that's come forth first and foremost. I've never defended Nairo, D1, Keitaro literally any of the people that got outed because I want to stand with victims. I don't think it's wrong to find some accusations suspect because people can lie.

Like for better or worse let's assume Zero is innocent (with the recent stuff that came out I'm not saying he is), how the hell is he supposed to defend himself from a single sentence? I don't see a winning move from the people in this thread because tension is high with all the stuff coming out. Is he supposed to just ignore it? Call the person a liar? I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, a clear statement saying "this did not happen" would be your defense. Then people can choose who they want to believe or someone can produce evidence, which could be witnesses, further accusations, screenshots/photos/video, etc.

In this case, further accusations emerged, likely as a result of the first accuser creating space where additional people felt it would be safe for them to speak up. Space that gets shut down if we start pecking at the accuser and going "hey this is weird" or "hey why did you put this meme image here, it makes your accusation suspect."

And yes people can lie, but people generally don't lie about these sorts of things. There is almost never anything to gain from doing so.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


And again, your only reason for thinking the accusation is 'suspect' is that it was flippant and vague. Imagine if you had to express one of the most traumatic things to ever happen to you for the internet, so they could then tear you apart viciously and threaten to murder you, say you deserve to be raped, try and find your address, try and ruin your life.

Do you think that maybe, some people, faced with the prospect of that, might make a joke? Might be vague? Might just want to get it over with instead of writing a ten paragraph essay?

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




StrixNebulosa posted:

But like, predators have to loving go. Believe women.

Probably better to say believe victims, since a couple of these are from guys.

RottenK
Feb 17, 2011

Sexy bad choices



ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

That's all understandable, I feel like a big reason I found the first accusation so hard to believe is just because of how flippant Jackie was.

Just "Hey Zero you did a bad thing" then a sailor moon meme. There was no proof he did, no evidence etc and the tacked on meme just made it read as a "I don't care that much" kinda thing

ignoring victims because they're not acting in a specific way that people expect victims act in (and even using their behavior as proof of them lying) is like, one of the foundational blocks of what metoo was trying to fight against

try to be better about this, please. people don't have to be in 24/7 mourning to be credible

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007




Endorph posted:

And again, your only reason for thinking the accusation is 'suspect' is that it was flippant and vague. Imagine if you had to express one of the most traumatic things to ever happen to you for the internet, so they could then tear you apart viciously and threaten to murder you, say you deserve to be raped, try and find your address, try and ruin your life.

Do you think that maybe, some people, faced with the prospect of that, might make a joke?

So many stories of police officers not believing surprise sex victims because they were either too emotional or not emotional enough or not emotional in the right way. A cop going "I saw her sitting with her friend in the waiting room and laughing about something, and her ability to laugh is proof she wasn't victimized," because apparently if you aren't a shattered shell of a human being and wearing your trauma for the whole world to see, you're just a liar pulling a fast one in order to... waste police resources? They never can explain the motivation for the lie.

It's really despicable and watching it happen again and again is frustrating. People express trauma differently and they might approach it in a way that appears odd. But being weird doesn't mean someone wasn't a victim.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



Wicked Them Beats posted:

Yes, a clear statement saying "this did not happen" would be your defense. Then people can choose who they want to believe or someone can produce evidence, which could be witnesses, further accusations, screenshots/photos/video, etc.

In this case, further accusations emerged, likely as a result of the first accuser creating space where additional people felt it would be safe for them to speak up. Space that gets shut down if we start pecking at the accuser and going "hey this is weird" or "hey why did you put this meme image here, it makes your accusation suspect."

And yes people can lie, but people generally don't lie about these sorts of things. There is almost never anything to gain from doing so.

There's always the chance of petty grudges and wanting to see people fail. Right now in the FGC there's a colossal number of people begging for callout posts in regards to SonicFox just because they're a furry. I'm just kind of waiting at this point for someone to try to drag them because man people are desperate for it.

I genuinely do understand what you mean though- I fully admit part of me is putting myself in Zeros shoes and that's loving with my judgement because I panic a lot when people misunderstand what I'm saying or whatever I'm trying to convey, and I've done the same thing in the past over small poo poo like not finishing a project in time or whatever, where someone cast doubt on me and I scramble to get as much evidence as possible because I don't want to be misunderstood.

I'm really not a fan of ZeRo's. I even mentioned before his post that this seems completely in character for him after seeing a couple videos of his where he bullies and peer pressures his friends into doing stupid things for his content.

Right now I'm on the victims side because more stuff came out, I just wanted a bit more to make a call.

RottenK posted:

ignoring victims because they're not acting in a specific way that people expect victims act in (and even using their behavior as proof of them lying) is like, one of the foundational blocks of what metoo was trying to fight against

try to be better about this, please. people don't have to be in 24/7 mourning to be credible

I get that, it's just after everyone came out with logs etc having a single sentence just felt weird and off. I wasn't clamoring for her to be in mourning. It was just wanting more details on what happened/how it went down.

I'll try to be better about it, thread makes good points.

ThisIsACoolGuy fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jul 3, 2020

not a bot
Jan 9, 2019


ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Like for better or worse let's assume Zero is innocent (with the recent stuff that came out I'm not saying he is, this is purely hypothetical now), how the hell is he supposed to defend himself from a single sentence? I don't see a winning move from the people in this thread because tension is high with all the stuff coming out. Is he supposed to just ignore it? Call the person a liar? I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, if he didn't do it he could say that he didn't do it.

But he didn't do that. Instead he posted a whole lot of stuff which had nothing to do with the allegiations to try and make people less likely to believe her. Why isn't he denying the allegiations? Why is he trying to undermine her credibility while saying he isn't doing that? Also the amount of weasel words used, hoo boy.

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT



ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

That's all understandable, I feel like a big reason I found the first accusation so hard to believe is just because of how flippant Jackie was.

Just "Hey Zero you did a bad thing" then a sailor moon meme. There was no proof he did, no evidence etc and the tacked on meme just made it read as a "I don't care that much" kinda thing, so when he types up a whole house tour and shows records of what happened it's just hard for me to go 'wow what a monster he didn't prove a thing'. A guilty until proven innocent situation and it just makes me wonder what you'd have to do to defend yourself against accusations if that's not enough.

(Since then Jackie deleted the meme post apparently and this second accusation came out so I'm not going to try to defend Zero further. I'm just tired of literally every content creator/name I was interested in turning out to be terrible)

Sometimes people want to speak up without making it A Thing, either because they just need to put something out there, or because they feel the need to soften it (pander if you like) because they don't feel safe or confident about making a serious, direct accusation. Giventhe kind of backlash women tend to face in general for speaking up, never mind in a large community full of popular personalities, it wouldn't be weird for someone to say "hey you did something bad and I have to mention it, also I'm keeping this light and fun"

I don't know anything about this whole community but honestly if someone frontloads a statement with a huge evidence dump about how a house is laid out, who was where and when, and messages showing someone was acting light and friendly (see above) and then their actual rebuttal is at the bottom and amounts to "I don't remember" or "probably didn't" then the evidence isn't really showing anything, it's just there to look impressive. Oh you said my behaviour was lovely at times? Please refer to exhibit 3b

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Probably better to say believe victims, since a couple of these are from guys.

yeah, and theres plenty of people giving the guy who accused mr. wizard poo poo just because his twitter banner is a sexy anime babe so clearly HES also a hosed up pervert. people rush for any excuse

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