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Bell_
Sep 3, 2006

Tiny Baltimore





The cheapo land destruction which replaces itself is obviously going to be key against greedy manabases, but since the basic land replacing the destroyed one comes into play tapped, I think even reactive blue decks will need to consider keeping extra mana open to react to your main threats.

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resistentialism
Aug 13, 2007



Bo1 headshot.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



Iím gonna build Gruul Lithomancy and UB Rogues for standard and Iím gonna find the perfect balance of Spell/Lands for Mono-G Planeswalkers and that should keep me busy for a while.

TheIncredulousHulk
Sep 3, 2012

Now cracks a noble heart.


File me under "Mill Rogue isn't actually gonna be very good despite all the support it got" as far as predictions go

Shrecknet
Jan 2, 2005

Nosferatu Enthusiast
@shrecknet


TheIncredulousHulk posted:

File me under "Mill Rogue isn't actually gonna be very good despite all the support it got" as far as predictions go
Mill Rogue will be very good as an aggro deck similar to Skies, but everyone's gonna try and build it as a pure Mill (or, "lovely burn") and it'll suck until people realize you're just supposed to be playing a 3/2 flash deathtouch for B not mill their Uros for them.

Time
Aug 1, 2011

It Was All A Dream



Shrecknet posted:

Mill Rogue will be very good as an aggro deck similar to Skies, but everyone's gonna try and build it as a pure Mill (or, "lovely burn") and it'll suck until people realize you're just supposed to be playing a 3/2 flash deathtouch for B not mill their Uros for them.

Itís going to be bad however you build it

fadam
Apr 23, 2008



Itís cool that theyíve been seeding UB Rogue stuff since Eldraine and it looks like all the pieces for a deck are finally in the same environment, but I just donít see it tbh. I feel like fragile fiddly decks never work out, and having to mill your opponent instead of yourself is a huge deal in a meta with so much Uro.

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem

I think it would be pretty good if not for Uro existing, 8 cards is not very many and all your payoffs are also enablers. Any time you open with the M21 rogue you're practically guaranteed to have everything turned on by turn 3.

Hopefully the D&D set has some synergistic rogues so the archetype can get some playtime in 2022 Standard.

Time
Aug 1, 2011

It Was All A Dream



If the mediocre payoffs for rogue mill tribal end up being good then this is the lowest powered standard post rotation in like a half decade. None of the cards seem worth it

Ani
Jun 15, 2001
illum non populi fasces, non purpura regum / flexit et infidos agitans discordia fratres

Can I join the other folks getting drafting critiques? I did a bot draft where I went UR spells and thought I picked up a bunch of pretty good cards (Teferi's Tutelage, 2x Riddleform, Ghostlight, Scorching Dragonfire, that caravaner person) but I think (a) the deck ended up as more of a pile than a synergistic deck and (b) I suck at playing. I went 3/3 and it really should have been 2/3 (one guy self-owned by playing card-drawing when I had already nearly milled him to death, but could have killed me).

Draft: https://www.17lands.com/draft/c553d...d15870e89123e0e
Pool: https://www.17lands.com/pool/c553da...d15870e89123e0e
Deck: https://www.17lands.com/deck/c553da...d15870e89123e0e

AngryBooch
Sep 26, 2009


Time posted:

If the mediocre payoffs for rogue mill tribal end up being good then this is the lowest powered standard post rotation in like a half decade. None of the cards seem worth it

I'm going to mill over somebody's Shark Typhoon and then Ninjitsu Zareth San into play and get that baby on my side of the board.

Really Zareth San seems quite strong to me, could be the payoff rogues are looking for. Getting an ECD, Typhoon, Gargaroth, Ugin, or a Uro trigger seem good. Even getting a Fabled Passage could be key.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



I think people are really overestimating how hard Uro ďshuts downĒ the Rogue deck. Black has lots of way to pluck things out of the GY, and the Uro decks are gonna be playing Uro and filling their GY anyway, regardless of what they are playing against. I donít think incidentally putting their Uros in the yard is gonna end up mattering enough to completely blank the deck.

I think itís not a forgone conclusion G1, and I think you can bring in a variety of hate game 2. Brazen Borrower and Drown in the Loch are both gonna be good against him.

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case



Uro is not going to make the mill deck bad
Itís going to be bad because itís not doing anything remotely powerful

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

MR. STUPID MORON
WITH AN UGLY FACE
AND A BIG BUTT
AND HIS BUTT SMELLS
AND HE LIKES TO KISS
HIS OWN BUTT
by Roger Hargreaves


Man not having Nissa, Who Shakes The World is gonna be rough.

More than anything else that card is what makes the ramp decks go off.

Azuth0667
Sep 20, 2011

By the word of Zoroaster, no business decision is poor when it involves Ahura Mazda.


I want eternal dragon to be a part of standard again.

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




Bust Rodd posted:

I think people are really overestimating how hard Uro ďshuts downĒ the Rogue deck. Black has lots of way to pluck things out of the GY, and the Uro decks are gonna be playing Uro and filling their GY anyway, regardless of what they are playing against. I donít think incidentally putting their Uros in the yard is gonna end up mattering enough to completely blank the deck.

I think itís not a forgone conclusion G1, and I think you can bring in a variety of hate game 2. Brazen Borrower and Drown in the Loch are both gonna be good against him.

It's not really that it's not doable but more of a question of what in the world are you doing with it once you get it going? None of the payoffs are very good and Tom Zareth is pretty easy dealt with

TheIncredulousHulk
Sep 3, 2012

Now cracks a noble heart.


Uro isn't a problem for the deck just because he's huge and generally shits on aggro even if they have ways to kill him. There's a decent chance that simply escaping him drops your opponent back below Reverse Threshold and makes your dudes bad again without even taking into account that you now have to answer an Uro or lose

There's also the fact that you're trying to beat an Uro deck with a deck that's doing things like "play a 1/1 that will hopefully become a 3/2 around turn 4 or turn 5" when other decks are jamming poo poo like Embercleave or Questing Beast in the same range of turns. You can be like ah, but it's got good disruption, 8 2-mana counterspells are great!! but like one of those two doesn't even stop spells from killing your guys even at its full power which is really important when you're trying to play an aggro deck with zero reach

Like maybe I'm way wrong but the best cards in the deck look by far to be Brazen Borrower(duh) and Drown in the Loch and I will be pretty surprised if Mill Rogue ends up being the best shell for those two

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

Anyone who mainlines monored in current standard and needs their aggro fix should switch to UR prowess for post rotation 2021 standard, featuring Sprite Dragon and Stormwing Entity. Just as fast, easy on the WCs and only requires slightly more brain cells to pilot.

Limited chat: I think people are overestimating how big parties are going to be on average. Besides the difficulty in assembling a deck with an even spread of party class creatures, there's a boatload of great removal in the set, particularly in blue and black. It's going to be very easy to gently caress with spells that tally party size on resolution. I estimate that you should expect the average party size for most relevant spells in decks that care about party to be 1.5.

The Klowner fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Sep 16, 2020

lockdar
Jul 7, 2008



Ani posted:

Can I join the other folks getting drafting critiques? I did a bot draft where I went UR spells and thought I picked up a bunch of pretty good cards (Teferi's Tutelage, 2x Riddleform, Ghostlight, Scorching Dragonfire, that caravaner person) but I think (a) the deck ended up as more of a pile than a synergistic deck and (b) I suck at playing. I went 3/3 and it really should have been 2/3 (one guy self-owned by playing card-drawing when I had already nearly milled him to death, but could have killed me).

Draft: https://www.17lands.com/draft/c553d...d15870e89123e0e
Pool: https://www.17lands.com/pool/c553da...d15870e89123e0e
Deck: https://www.17lands.com/deck/c553da...d15870e89123e0e

I'm not a master drafter or anything but I'll give this a go.

P1P2 - I would've grabbed the Dragonfire here tbh. That card will always be relevant and although Tutelage is great I think most decks are to quick for it.
P1P3 - This kinda hurts, you're getting a Gagglemaster and a Patrician, both huge signals from your right. Yet you pick a card that will be there later.
P1P8 - Take the glidemaster next time, 2 drops are important and Read the Tides will pop up later.

P2P1 - Enthralling Hold is not a good card in my experience. It's been a disappointments every time I've tried it.
You're getting really punished here for pack 1. The signals in pack 1 weren't really good after the 3rd and 4th pick but the patrician wheeling should've set of an alarm bell in pack 1.

Bot drafts can be very tricky but I usually try to stay as open as possible in pack 1 so I have time to find my lane. It seems that in your seat a deck in any of the 2 Mardu colours would've been more solid.

wei
Jul 27, 2006


The Klowner posted:

Anyone who mainlines monored in current standard and needs their aggro fix should switch to UR prowess for post rotation 2021 standard, featuring Sprite Dragon and Stormwing Entity. Just as fast, easy on the WCs and only requires slightly more brain cells to pilot.

Limited chat: I think people are overestimating how big parties are going to be on average. Besides the difficulty in assembling a deck with an even spread of party class creatures, there's a boatload of great removal in the set, particularly in blue and black. It's going to be very easy to gently caress with spells that tally party size on resolution. I estimate that you should expect the average party size for most relevant spells in decks that care about party to be 1.5.

1.5 seems right, there is a lot of removal in this set. It's probably safe to assume that 'if you have a full party' clauses on rares and mythics are going to fire once in a blue moon. I think it's better to deckbuild for a density of 2-3 types rather than play worse cards just to try to get a full one. The party-matters commons and uncommons have good enough payoffs with 2-3 members.

The mono-tribal decks will draft off-tribe cards because minor party synergies are good, and some off-tribe creatures are just good. For example, in RW warriors, Ardent Electromancer and Fissure Wizard are just good cards that also happen to support Grotag Bug-Catcher, the best 2-drop in the deck. Following this it makes sense to also draft things like Emeria Captain and Thundering Sparkmage if you aren't offered Warrior payoffs at uncommon.

If you consume any limited content you probably already know that MDFCs are going to be very good. The worst of them should have a grade floor of C+. Until I determine archetype rankings and preferences I'm just going to pick any I get offered in pack 1 over all but the A-grade rares (or extremely clear lane), and then use that to guide my draft. The deckbuilding process when you get 4+ of these is interesting and the flood/screw mitigation looks to be real.

TheIncredulousHulk
Sep 3, 2012

Now cracks a noble heart.


The Klowner posted:

Anyone who mainlines monored in current standard and needs their aggro fix should switch to UR prowess for post rotation 2021 standard, featuring Sprite Dragon and Stormwing Entity. Just as fast, easy on the WCs and only requires slightly more brain cells to pilot.

Leaning in this direction myself right now because I don't feel like there are enough good ETB effects anymore to make a viable Yorion pile. God I wish they'd reprinted Sea Gate Oracle

MeinPanzer
Dec 19, 2004
anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

Can someone explain to me why when you mutate a creature onto Yorvo, Lord of Garenbrig the resulting creature is so huge? Like I just played a game where someone mutated a Gemrazer onto a 4/4 Yorvo and it ended up an 8/8.

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!



MeinPanzer posted:

Can someone explain to me why when you mutate a creature onto Yorvo, Lord of Garenbrig the resulting creature is so huge? Like I just played a game where someone mutated a Gemrazer onto a 4/4 Yorvo and it ended up an 8/8.

Yorvo is a 0/0 and comes into play with four +1/+1 counters on it. When you mutate onto him and put the other creature on top, it becomes that creature's base stats but still has the four +1/+1 counters. For a Gemrazer this makes it 8/8 since it's a 4/4 base.

MeinPanzer
Dec 19, 2004
anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

Gotcha, thanks!

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!


Yes however will mill rogues deal with enemy uros using the new card Shadow's Verdict which exiles enemy uros from everywhere except hand?

I still think they'll be everywhere, and I thnk they'll be annoying, but I very much doubt they'll be reliably winning everything in much the same way as mill decks haven't the whole time I've been playing despite having plenty of tech.

thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Sep 16, 2020

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

MR. STUPID MORON
WITH AN UGLY FACE
AND A BIG BUTT
AND HIS BUTT SMELLS
AND HE LIKES TO KISS
HIS OWN BUTT
by Roger Hargreaves


More likely there will be a UBx control deck that has some of the rogues in it rather than a dedicated mill deck.

But I for one wouldn't complain about a deck that uses the legendary rogue because it's Bad Fallen Shinobi and that's neat.

The smart choice is to wait like 3 weeks to see how the grinders balance out the format and what the meta shifts to before making any hard commits to a deck of you're low on wildcards.

Or just play cycling to budget spike games for a laugh.

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!


Imma shove some landspells into my monowhite and keep right on going and whinge about shadows verdict constantly I think.

Nah actually I'm probably going to think about cat tokens tribal with Cubwarden, Attended Healer and Felidar Retreat.

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

MR. STUPID MORON
WITH AN UGLY FACE
AND A BIG BUTT
AND HIS BUTT SMELLS
AND HE LIKES TO KISS
HIS OWN BUTT
by Roger Hargreaves


Just don't whinge that your for fun themed deck loses to powerful cards and that's not fair.

Paul Zuvella
Dec 7, 2011



TheIncredulousHulk posted:

File me under "Mill Rogue isn't actually gonna be very good despite all the support it got" as far as predictions go

woah what a hot take that Mill is not going to be very good in Magic: the Gathering.

The people who are excited to play a mill deck in a format defined by Uro confound me to no end.

A Moose
Oct 22, 2009



idk if mill rogue tribal is going to do anything, but we're pretty much only losing brineborn cutthroat from dimir flash, so it's probably going to be "mill exactly enough cards to turn on Drown in the Loch and maindeck GY hate"

also spell lands will probably enable people to run maindeck Duress

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

thespaceinvader posted:

Imma shove some landspells into my monowhite and keep right on going and whinge about shadows verdict constantly I think.

Nah actually I'm probably going to think about cat tokens tribal with Cubwarden, Attended Healer and Felidar Retreat.

Gridlocked posted:

Just don't whinge that your for fun themed deck loses to powerful cards and that's not fair.

Non sequitur but "whinge" is just the English spelling of "whine" right? Is it pronounced the same way?

Bland
Aug 31, 2008


Winner Of The TRP I dont actually remember the contest im pretty high right now here's your venkys tag




thespaceinvader posted:

Yes however will mill rogues deal with enemy uros using the new card Shadow's Verdict which exiles enemy uros from everywhere except hand?

I don't think a Rogues deck spending 5 mana at sorcery speed to exile all their own creatures so they can get Uro out of their opponents yard is as great a play as you make it sound.

Bland
Aug 31, 2008


Winner Of The TRP I dont actually remember the contest im pretty high right now here's your venkys tag




The Klowner posted:

Non sequitur but "whinge" is just the English spelling of "whine" right? Is it pronounced the same way?

They do mean the same thing but it's pronounced like "hinge".

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

MR. STUPID MORON
WITH AN UGLY FACE
AND A BIG BUTT
AND HIS BUTT SMELLS
AND HE LIKES TO KISS
HIS OWN BUTT
by Roger Hargreaves


The Klowner posted:

Non sequitur but "whinge" is just the English spelling of "whine" right? Is it pronounced the same way?

A whine is a high pitched sound typically made in anguish or pain. The word can also be used to describe someone complaining about something, as in "Having a whine," because the act of whining is expressing anguish, pain or discomfort.

A whinge is simply complaining about something, generally said with regard to either a petty issue or in a very childish manner.

They can be used somewhat interchangeably but do in fact mean different things.

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!


The Klowner posted:

Non sequitur but "whinge" is just the English spelling of "whine" right? Is it pronounced the same way?

No they are different words that have broadly similar meaning. Whinge is pronounced like fringe.

E: wow, beaten.

ZNR can't come soon enough at this point, I really wanna refresh some decks and waste some wildcards. And do some expensive drafting i'll enjoy but be bad at.

Kite Pride Worldwide
Apr 20, 2009




Woo I scooted into Silver already, with just a slightly enhanced Life Skills deck (I swapped out the useless 1/1 guys and wildcarded in an extra Vito and Speaker), just in time for the end of the season it seems. I wonder if there's enough time left for Gold?

Boco_T
Mar 12, 2003

la calaca tilica y flaca


Kite Pride Worldwide posted:

Woo I scooted into Silver already, with just a slightly enhanced Life Skills deck (I swapped out the useless 1/1 guys and wildcarded in an extra Vito and Speaker), just in time for the end of the season it seems. I wonder if there's enough time left for Gold?
Your rank won't reset when the new set comes out tomorrow, so you have 14 more days to make it to Gold. It's just a question of whether the new set makes your deck's position better or worse.

Bland
Aug 31, 2008


Winner Of The TRP I dont actually remember the contest im pretty high right now here's your venkys tag




What decks are people looking forward to trying tomorrow? I brewed up this monstrosity centred around Kaza, Roil Chaser of all cards. It's the perfect day 1 deck in the sense that it folds to the slightest amount of interaction, but nobody ever runs interaction when a new set comes out. I definitely want to try a Verazol deck too, though that might end up being more of a card for brawl than standard.

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!


Verzol Kicker looks good, Grakmaw BG or WBG tokens looks interesting, Yasharn as a brawl commander looks funny. Definitely wanna try warrior equipment aggro, and a party deck of some sort.

A lot will depend on what comes out of packs and draft though.

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Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!



thespaceinvader posted:

Yes however will mill rogues deal with enemy uros using the new card Shadow's Verdict which exiles enemy uros from everywhere except hand?

I think Necromentia will be maindeck worthy for the Rogues deck. You'll get a nice look at your opponent's cards by milling them, and make an informed decision about what to exile.

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