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Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


is the issue that with bo1 you're more at the mercy of rng? or just that the level of competition is higher?

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Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Both. Traditional Draft is unranked and extremely winner take all. Premium Draft is ranked and BO1 so as you climb rank the games get harder and you're still hosed by BO1 variance.

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Blind.
Idiot.
God.



fadam posted:

Double Strike and Trample and +1/+1 just work out so that blocking is basically always impossible. Obviously the fact it persists is strong, but in my experience most of my games end on the turn I cast it anyway.

Yeah, like normally, it clears out my two biggest creatures but I get a kill on the thing that was equipped and that process repeats every turn.

Best case scenario is a board wipe and then being real loving careful to not allow anything in a loving Monored deck to ever attack, which...good loving luck. Hope you can close the game out quick.

Drewjitsu
Sep 2, 2007

Muay Thai is great but Buttscoot-Shin-to-Balls Style is undeniably better.




Rinkles posted:

is the issue that with bo1 you're more at the mercy of rng? or just that the level of competition is higher?

I have no idea. Honestly, I know I can draft and play STX, but it just doesn't come together in bo1. I will agree that bo1 gets much harder around gold+ level, as people take the game play much more seriously.

I had two people misplay around efreet flamepainter on my way to my last 3-0 last night.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Azathoth posted:

Yeah, like normally, it clears out my two biggest creatures but I get a kill on the thing that was equipped and that process repeats every turn.

Best case scenario is a board wipe and then being real loving careful to not allow anything in a loving Monored deck to ever attack, which...good loving luck. Hope you can close the game out quick.

Best case scenario is that you efficiently remove creatures so that they can never actually get Embercleave into play because they don't have enough bodies for the discount. Next best case scenario is to use instant removal on the creature it's being attached to which basically blanks Embercleave for that turn.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002



Rinkles posted:

is the issue that with bo1 you're more at the mercy of rng? or just that the level of competition is higher?

at least part of it is that BO1 is ranked, so if you go on a hot streak you get paired against better players, while the same is not true of BO3

That Italian Guy
Jul 25, 2012

Rocky uses Explosive Punch!
Paid by the Spines-for-Lowtax Committee.


evilweasel posted:

at least part of it is that BO1 is ranked, so if you go on a hot streak you get paired against better players, while the same is not true of BO3
So Traditional Draft is an unranked, BO3 format where you are paired with other people that have the same amount of wins, right? And it costs the same as a premier draft/has the same timed "drafting with real people" component.

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Blind.
Idiot.
God.



Eej posted:

Best case scenario is that you efficiently remove creatures so that they can never actually get Embercleave into play because they don't have enough bodies for the discount. Next best case scenario is to use instant removal on the creature it's being attached to which basically blanks Embercleave for that turn.

So...best case scenario is you play a control deck?

Because both those only really seem like viable playlines for decks packed full of removal and counters.

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!


Azathoth posted:

So...best case scenario is you play a control deck?

Because both those only really seem like viable playlines for decks packed full of removal and counters.

You need to have some removal even in your aggro/midrange, you can't rely on being able to block and attack profitably to kill everything.

Red runs a bunch of burn, green runs fight/punch spells and/or instant speed combat tricks, white runs exile enchants and Apparition etc.

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Blind.
Idiot.
God.



thespaceinvader posted:

You need to have some removal even in your aggro/midrange, you can't rely on being able to block and attack profitably to kill everything.

Red runs a bunch of burn, green runs fight/punch spells and/or instant speed combat tricks, white runs exile enchants and Apparition etc.

Keeping a clear board state so Embercleave never can hit is a tall order for a lot of decks even with "some" removal. Like yeah, I can aggressively clear everything but Red's whole bit is dropping a ton of cheap threats quick then Embercleave to close out. Most any noncontrol deck is gonna run out of removal before Red runs out of creatures.

I mean yeah, if you're playing against Red you're obviously playing to keep Embercleave off the board or under control but the very state of the meta is an indictment that the best case scenario is not viable for a lot of decks.

Azathoth fucked around with this message at 19:24 on May 3, 2021

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!


Mostly keeping them down to one creature should be enough, but yeah, that can be tricky whilst also building your board.

breadnsucc
Jun 1, 2020

Wall Of Rads

Pokeytax posted:

If Rinkles spent wildcards on mono red they should probably follow their heart and finish it, but as a newbie I want to elevate this advice, and it should be considered for the OP. The Cycling deck, especially the R/W version, is 5% as expensive and 95% as good as any other meta deck, and allows you to play competitive Standard with zero rares and avoid the "built deck, hate deck, no wildcards, now what" deathtrap. It is dead at rotation, but I'm a mediocre player and just went 7-0 in Standard Event against the following:

Rogues
Mono White
Knight Tribal
Cycling
Sultai Ultimatum
Tibalt's Trickery (feat. T2 Kiora Bests The Sea God)
Mono Red

This is not a brag post. I missed lethal multiple times. Just confirmation that the deck is Good Enough.


I've played this once out of five draws but it was for all five modes to win the game so it's averaging 13/10. Magma Opus has the discard mode which is nice while also being not as cowardly as playing a straight-up cycling card like Neutralize. In about a month this will have become a Gruul Ultimatum deck.

where find deck?

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Bo3 doesn't actually put you in a pod, outside of the drafting? You can still play matches at your leisure, right?

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!


Rinkles posted:

Bo3 doesn't actually put you in a pod, outside of the drafting? You can still play matches at your leisure, right?

There are no podded draft formats native to Arena.

little munchkin
Aug 15, 2010



That Italian Guy posted:

So Traditional Draft is an unranked, BO3 format where you are paired with other people that have the same amount of wins, right? And it costs the same as a premier draft/has the same timed "drafting with real people" component.

the matchmaking is completely opaque and all we know is the system "tries to" match you up against someone with a similar record

Rinkles posted:

Bo3 doesn't actually put you in a pod, outside of the drafting? You can still play matches at your leisure, right?

yes

babypolis
Nov 4, 2009

its a hogspiracy

witchy posted:

at this point im pretty sure that most silverquill decks want ~1 essence infusion. its comparable to expanded anatomy in that it that grows your creatures and makes it impossible to race, and anatomy is nuts in the format

I like infusion but I often feel like that 23rd slot is better taken by a protection spell

Technowolf
Nov 4, 2009






Wizards should just memory hole all of ELD tbqh

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Shoulda stuck with the original BFZ rotation plan?

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Azathoth posted:

Keeping a clear board state so Embercleave never can hit is a tall order for a lot of decks even with "some" removal. Like yeah, I can aggressively clear everything but Red's whole bit is dropping a ton of cheap threats quick then Embercleave to close out. Most any noncontrol deck is gonna run out of removal before Red runs out of creatures.

I mean yeah, if you're playing against Red you're obviously playing to keep Embercleave off the board or under control but the very state of the meta is an indictment that the best case scenario is not viable for a lot of decks.

That's what Bonecrusher Giant and Brazen Borrower are for! Removal and board for one card! Brazen Borrower comes with the bonus of being able to bounce the creature being equipped or Embercleave itself without triggering Anax tokens or just murdering tokens in general.

Hammer Bro.
Jul 7, 2007

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Bust Rodd posted:

I would personally really love to get away from this haymaker style of magic where the game is just totally and fully negated by one player resolving a giant 7-8 mana spell that just concludes the game. Resolving Ugin or Sultai Ultimatum is simply too easy and too reliable for how overwhelmingly powerful those cards are. We had Ugin in Standard before, but getting to 8 mana actually used to be extremely difficult and Ugin almost never showed up except in the SB of UW Cawblade Mirrors or w/e.

Magic used to be about synergy and blocking. Standard right now is just SWEEPER SWEEPER SWEEPER SWEEPER ULITMATUM SWEEPER UGIN GG or itís ďha ha I won the coin flip so I will kill you with Embercleave on T4 before you exile all creatures from play and the gy and render it totally impossible for me to keep playing.Ē

Yet all around the world, neckbeards pound their greasy mitts in unison, chanting "Best of One. Best of One!"

It's an unfortunate perverse incentive that the most accessible way to play the game promotes design decisions that take away from the intricacy and uniqueness of the game.

But the time commitment difference between Bo3 and Bo1 is a game-changer. If only that weren't also literal.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Hammer Bro. posted:

Yet all around the world, neckbeards pound their greasy mitts in unison, chanting "Best of One. Best of One!"

It's an unfortunate perverse incentive that the most accessible way to play the game promotes design decisions that take away from the intricacy and uniqueness of the game.

But the time commitment difference between Bo3 and Bo1 is a game-changer. If only that weren't also literal.
Is the choice of neckbeards best of 1?

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



I've been enjoying the Titan's Nest deck that CGB showed off recently, I happened to have all the rares for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK-7hbbcYaU
The basic gameplan is:
1) Spin your wheels filtering through a tonne of cards and killing some opposing creatures if necessary
2) Play Titan's Nest
3) Hardcast Shark Typhoon, play a bunch of Alrund's Epiphanys and other random draw spells, kill your opponent during extra turns. Maybe ult Lady Onyx if you feel like it.

It feels surprisingly well positioned, you can go off faster than Ultimatum and have good interaction for them. Rogues is a hilarious matchup if you can resolve Titan's Nest, at that point all their cards are just giving you mana and you can turn off their synergies whenever you feel like it. With that said Titan's Nest is a pain to use on arena for multiple reasons:
1) You have to exile cards from your graveyard one at a time
2) The autotapper will always try to use as many of your lands as possible, so you'll generally need to manually exile 5 cards from your graveyard before casting Shark Typhoon during a turn you go off
3) If an opponent tries to use Drown in the Loch on something you can actually just activate Titan's Nest a bunch of times in response to make it fizzle. But in arena you automatically pass priority if you can't use your mana to cast spells, so against rogues you really need to keep Full Control held while you have Titan's Nest in play

I agree with CGB that Rain of Revelation is pretty awkward when you don't have Titan's Nest in play. I might try replacing them with the other copies of Curate since that at least makes more hands keepable.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


From what I've seen Urlich play, Rogues is not a good match up.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



I can imagine it being tough if they are familiar with the matchup and know that they absolutely cannot under any circumstances let Titan's Nest resolve. With that said I think it has to be easier to resolve a 1UGB spell against rogues than a UUGGGBBB one, so it's probably a better matchup than the ultimatum deck has there.

Pokeytax
Jun 13, 2005



breadnsucc posted:

where find deck?

Here is the list I am running:

Companion
1 Lurrus of the Dream-Den

Deck
4 Valiant Rescuer
4 Flourishing Fox
4 Drannith Stinger
4 Drannith Healer

2 Boon of the Wish-Giver
4 Frostveil Ambush
4 Zenith Flare
4 Footfall Crater
4 Memory Leak
4 Go for Blood
4 Startling Development

7 Mountain
11 Plains

The slightly less budget versions with rare lands, Pyromancer, etc. are pretty much strictly superior. But they may actually result in a lower winrate for newbies because casting spells is a trap, 99% of the time you should cycle so you can Zenith Flare for a zillion damage. Similarly, Lurrus isnít a must-have and most of its value probably comes from people mulliganing against Rogues.

That Italian Guy
Jul 25, 2012

Rocky uses Explosive Punch!
Paid by the Spines-for-Lowtax Committee.


breadnsucc posted:

where find deck?

This is the list I'm running after having used the one linked above and having some issues when drawing into multiple lands in a row. The Pathways are probably the safest rare craft of them all if you think you'll ever play W/R again, otherwise you can use basic lands. The triomes are random ones with W/R that I had, they are mostly there for the cycle part as well - you can safely ignore them if you don't have them. I hover between 70 and 75% WR at Platinum.

Companion
1 Lurrus of the Dream-Den (IKO) 226

Deck
4 Drannith Healer (IKO) 10
4 Flourishing Fox (IKO) 13
4 Valiant Rescuer (IKO) 36
4 Frostveil Ambush (IKO) 52
4 Startling Development (IKO) 68
3 Memory Leak (IKO) 95
4 Drannith Stinger (IKO) 113
4 Footfall Crater (IKO) 118
4 Go for Blood (IKO) 122
4 Zenith Flare (IKO) 217
2 Savai Triome (IKO) 253
4 Needleverge Pathway (ZNR) 263
3 Thrilling Discovery (STX) 243
8 Plains (STX) 367
4 Mountain (STX) 373

Sideboard
1 Lurrus of the Dream-Den (IKO) 226

That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 22:37 on May 3, 2021

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin


Here's where I'm at with Shadow in Historic:
Deck
3 Claim /// Fame (AKR) 229
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (STA) 31
4 Thoughtseize (AKR) 127
3 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger (THB) 221
2 Bloodchief's Thirst (ZNR) 94
4 Fatal Push (KLR) 84
2 Archfiend's Vessel (M21) 88
4 Shock (M20) 160
4 Death's Shadow (WWK) 57
4 Scourge of the Skyclaves (ZNR) 122
3 Blood Crypt (RNA) 245
2 Dreadhorde Arcanist (WAR) 125
1 Dreadhorde Invasion (WAR) 86
4 Ifnir Deadlands (AKR) 302
4 Ramunap Ruins (AKR) 326
2 Agadeem's Awakening (ZNR) 90
1 Shatterskull Smashing (ZNR) 161
4 Swamp (ANA) 28
3 Faithless Looting (STA) 38
4 Blightstep Pathway (KHM) 252

Sideboard
1 Lurrus of the Dream-Den (IKO) 226
What are the good burn spell in Historic? I want ways to more reliably turn on my Scourge

sephiRoth IRA
Jun 13, 2007

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

-Carl Sagan


I have a genuine question about getting better. I like constructed, but feel like no matter how many games I play I'm just flailing around in the lower ranks. I watch videos and really try to think about piloting decks, but sometimes I wonder if I'm too stupid to pilot anything but monoR or gruul. Just dump and turn em sideways.

Is there a way I can improve at piloting combo or control decks? Should I get some sort of coach? I'm a smart dude, I swear, I just seem to be extremely bad at magic.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



Is there an agreed upon level where buying the Mastery is actually worth 3,400 gems?

flatluigi
Apr 22, 2008

here come the planes


AlternateNu posted:

Is there an agreed upon level where buying the Mastery is actually worth 3,400 gems?

it's completely subjective on how much of the packs/cosmetics/etc are worth it for you

Simone Magus
Sep 29, 2020

When the weather's fine, and it's sunny outside
I think about the time I kicked a boy til he cried.
I could have been wrong...
But I don't think I was.


Modified U/W Magecraft for the Constructed event and lol it's ridiculously good. I think a version of this deck is gonna be the new hotness after rotation:

Deck
3 Clever Lumimancer (STX) 10
2 Guiding Voice (STX) 19
4 Leonin Lightscribe (STX) 20
4 Show of Confidence (STX) 28
3 Study Break (STX) 34
2 Expel (STX) 18
2 Thunderous Orator (STX) 35
1 Selfless Glyphweaver (STX) 157
2 Sparring Regimen (STX) 29
4 Symmetry Sage (STX) 56
3 Curate (STX) 40
2 Resculpt (STX) 51
2 Pop Quiz (STX) 49
2 Archmage Emeritus (STX) 37
1 Ingenious Mastery (STX) 44

1 Hall of Oracles (STX) 267
10 Island (ZNR) 381
12 Plains (STX) 367

Sideboard
1 Reduce to Memory (STX) 25
1 Environmental Sciences (STX) 1
1 Expanded Anatomy (STX) 2
1 Introduction to Annihilation (STX) 3
1 Introduction to Prophecy (STX) 4
1 Mercurial Transformation (STX) 47
1 Inkling Summoning (STX) 195

Seriously it just steamrolls

babypolis
Nov 4, 2009

its a hogspiracy

kinda sad that the mastery packs were slowly downgraded from "insane value, must buy" to "ehhh i guess if you care about having a dumb pet"

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


what level do most people reach?

flatluigi
Apr 22, 2008

here come the planes


babypolis posted:

kinda sad that the mastery packs were slowly downgraded from "insane value, must buy" to "ehhh i guess if you care about having a dumb pet"

iirc at the beginning they were still just "you can get more value from your gems if you pick this up (as long as you're, like, also grinding out every single bit of xp you can)"

Simone Magus
Sep 29, 2020

When the weather's fine, and it's sunny outside
I think about the time I kicked a boy til he cried.
I could have been wrong...
But I don't think I was.


babypolis posted:

kinda sad that the mastery packs were slowly downgraded from "insane value, must buy" to "ehhh i guess if you care about having a dumb pet"

Just lol if you don't care about pets and dumb emotes imo

Huxley
Oct 10, 2012





Grimey Drawer

Rinkles posted:

what level do most people reach?

Usually 10%-15% past the cap, playing every day for a half hour or so.

This season goes to 90, so I might break 100. The season that went to 130 I think I broke 150.

Pseudoscorpion
Jul 26, 2011




There's no benefit for buying the mastery pass early either unlike in some games, so at worst you can just wait until literally the last day and buy it to 'cash out' if you hit the level cap.

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Blind.
Idiot.
God.



sephiRoth IRA posted:

I have a genuine question about getting better. I like constructed, but feel like no matter how many games I play I'm just flailing around in the lower ranks. I watch videos and really try to think about piloting decks, but sometimes I wonder if I'm too stupid to pilot anything but monoR or gruul. Just dump and turn em sideways.

Is there a way I can improve at piloting combo or control decks? Should I get some sort of coach? I'm a smart dude, I swear, I just seem to be extremely bad at magic.
There's a few places my newbie mind goes with this:

First, are you playing one of the top meta decks like Sultai Ultimatum or Rogues? If not, what deck or decks are you playing?

I don't claim to be an expert, but if you're brewing up some funky combos or playing an off meta control deck, that's something that's gonna get beaten up on by on meta decks.

Second, for each of those decks, what's your actual tracked win percentage when you play ranked?

Which brings up the question of whether you actually are doing bad or not. Grinding rank is as much a function of time as skill, and it can definitely feel like you're stalling even when you're posting 50%+ win rates just because of the natural ebb and flow.

Third, within that win percentage, what opponent decks are you losing to the most?

Every deck is going to have good and bad matchups, so this is initially about seeing if there's something off, like you're losing to a deck that you should be beating and also to target what videos to watch to help improve.

If you consistently beat Rogues already, it doesn't do much good to watch a video of someone playing your deck teeing off on Rogues. It might be fun, but you already know how to do that.

This is also about seeing if you're playing a deck that has a bad meta matchup. If you do bad against Gruul and Monored despite knowing the decks, and that is, for lack of a better term, expected based on the deck, well that's something to consider. Does it then make sense to shift to a different deck that has a better overall matchup, or can you get better at those particular matchups so maybe you don't break even, but you do well enough that your higher win rates against other decks keeps you making progress.

wolfman101
Feb 8, 2004

PCXL Fanboy

I would love to play BO3, but with three kids it is hard to find time for three games.

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sephiRoth IRA
Jun 13, 2007

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

-Carl Sagan


Azathoth posted:

There's a few places my newbie mind goes with this:

First, are you playing one of the top meta decks like Sultai Ultimatum or Rogues? If not, what deck or decks are you playing?

I don't claim to be an expert, but if you're brewing up some funky combos or playing an off meta control deck, that's something that's gonna get beaten up on by on meta decks.

Second, for each of those decks, what's your actual tracked win percentage when you play ranked?

Which brings up the question of whether you actually are doing bad or not. Grinding rank is as much a function of time as skill, and it can definitely feel like you're stalling even when you're posting 50%+ win rates just because of the natural ebb and flow.

Third, within that win percentage, what opponent decks are you losing to the most?

Every deck is going to have good and bad matchups, so this is initially about seeing if there's something off, like you're losing to a deck that you should be beating and also to target what videos to watch to help improve.

If you consistently beat Rogues already, it doesn't do much good to watch a video of someone playing your deck teeing off on Rogues. It might be fun, but you already know how to do that.

This is also about seeing if you're playing a deck that has a bad meta matchup. If you do bad against Gruul and Monored despite knowing the decks, and that is, for lack of a better term, expected based on the deck, well that's something to consider. Does it then make sense to shift to a different deck that has a better overall matchup, or can you get better at those particular matchups so maybe you don't break even, but you do well enough that your higher win rates against other decks keeps you making progress.

Thank you for the quality post! I guess for me what happens is I watch streamers execute something really effectively and attempt to replicate and then fail. I figure this is a product of a mythic level streamer versus me, a random player.

I think my major disconnect (which is probably confirmation bias, if I'm being honest with myself) is that when I watch someone pilot a deck, they seem to draw answers they then use to stall and hit their combo pieces, and when I pilot the deck I just draw things that aren't helpful... but probably what's happening is that I'm not recognizing what I should be digging for, or mulliganing for, or just missing what the actual answer would be in a situation.

The tracking of stats is something I should start doing ASAP. I do a lot of play in the unranked queue. I cycle through about three "serious" decks right now in addition to random jank I play. The frustration comes from playing something like tainted pact, which by all accounts does well, and just piloting it poorly. I just don't see the plays. I know I need to play more, but right now it feels like I'm practicing the same wrong moves.

There's another deck that looks fun as hell, and appears like it wins a fair bit: https://app.cardboard.live/shared-deck/fa4a1198-ac67-11eb-8b34-12f15ef2af51?channel_id=183455126

It's a kinnan paradox engine combo and I almost have enough mythics to build it. I enjoy watching it and would love to learn to play it. I'm just worried I'm going to build it and then lose continuously. It's fine if it only has a 50% wr or whatever, I just don't want to lose over and over.

So I guess the place to start is to A) play bo3 and B) start tracking stats. I
How many games in silver-gold-plat is enough yo get a baseline? Should I just stick to one deck? Should I stick to an easier deck than pact?

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