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everyones favorite slow roll deck cat sac is now 33% of the meta just like i said lol
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Jun 8, 2020 22:18
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I think it only should have been banned in bo1. I've been running into nexus/fotd more than anything in historic bo3 at diamond.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:20
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A Moose posted:Hopefully Grafdigger's Cage isn't your only answer to winota. But if they're spending 3 mana to kill it, they're not killing you on turn 3, and then it depends on what else you've been doing that game. Are you a slower deck that has other more expensive answers in hand? If so, you just bought yourself a valuable turn! Are you an aggro deck that's using the time to pressure them? Cratermaker doesn't block, knight of autumn and rec sage both have 1 toughness so they won't be stopping any embercleaves. Now if you're using those turns to sit there with your dick in hand, casting opts for pieces of your 4-piece combo then all Winota is doing is just stomping you more efficiently than the gruul decks were doing all along. I'm of the opinion that they should unsuspend Winota when there are better answers to her. Playing against a Winota deck is vastly different from playing against an Aggro deck. The suspension of Winota for now will hopefully increase metagame diversity!
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Jun 8, 2020 22:25
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Winota decks have been fairly prevalent in the Historic Bo1 queue but they're not oppressive. The suspension seems like an overreaction. Like others have said, there are answers for it that can be included in pretty much every other deck in the meta and even though the Historic version has more consistency the combo is easy to disrupt. Maybe they'll reverse course after M21 drops.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:36
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AngryBooch posted:I'm of the opinion that they should unsuspend Winota when there are better answers to her. Playing against a Winota deck is vastly different from playing against an Aggro deck. The suspension of Winota for now will hopefully increase metagame diversity! What better answers do we need? Swords to Plowshares? Surgical Extraction? We have Meddling Mage so you can prevent them from even playing Winota. Assassin's Trophy straight up kills her for 2 mana. Dire Tactics exiles and doesn't even give them a land. Maybe you're mono-blue and you're playing Brazen Borrower into any counterspell. I'm honestly asking what cards should they reprint that would deal with her more effectively. What decks have trouble answering her with access to a sideboard?
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Jun 8, 2020 22:39
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The Clowner posted:I'm somewhat1 miffed2 I went 1-3 with this cycling deck (draft, the p1p1 rare was death's oasis). If anyone wants to take a look and tell me what mistakes I made during draft phase, please go ahead, because I feel like everything I did in the draft phase was reasonable given my seat. cycling wasn't open. aside from Stinger p1p2 you got passed 0 payoffs in the entirety of pack 1, and nearly no enablers. p1p3 you took a bad 2 mana cycler over Unbreakable Bond. you're almost never going to be short on 2 mana cyclers, so i'd hedge out in case cycling isn't open. if your draft was desperately missing a 2 mana cycler, it probably shouldn't have been in it in the first place p1p4-5 great start for a Bg reanimator deck p1p6 Greatwurm goes great with Bond p1p7 then you don't even take the 1 mana cycler p1p8 Scatter and Ram are both huge signals but you take another blank p1p9 i wish we could see what didn't wheel from pack 1 p1p10 Vantasaur being here is weird because Swallow Whole and Daybreak were both white cards taken over it, so maybe someone passing to you bailed out of cycling (or the packs were just weak)? at the end of pack 1 you have 4 cards that are good in a cycling deck (flare, stinger, vanta, leak) and 1 more that i'd enjoy playing (pacifism) and some filler-tier (checkpoint is not good in a cycle deck, 2 mana cyclers). there's a small chance that cycling is open in pack 2 because absolutely nothing got past you and that you might get paid off, but for this deck to come together it'd have to be WIDE open from that side, where nearly every card is great since you need 26ish playables for a good cycling deck and you're not going to get much pack 3. when your deck is struggling that hard to come together, you can't fart around with raredrafts and misclicks and expect to get good results. your final deck is a mess that's 3 colours with minimal fixing, mutate creatures that have almost nothing to go onto, and a bunch of cycling cards in the board with flare in the deck.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:41
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Lone Goat posted:cycling wasn't open. Yeah, I was looking at this and thinking green was very open, and cycling was not that open. Cubwarden in particular is just not worth including if you're not mutating it, much as I adore that card.
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Jun 8, 2020 22:44
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A Moose posted:What better answers do we need? Swords to Plowshares? Surgical Extraction? We have Meddling Mage so you can prevent them from even playing Winota. Assassin's Trophy straight up kills her for 2 mana. Dire Tactics exiles and doesn't even give them a land. Maybe you're mono-blue and you're playing Brazen Borrower into any counterspell. Idk bro but according to the stats she was dominating Historic, but she hasn’t really made any waves in Standard (in real formats, not bo1) where the pay offs are bad and she hasn’t done anything in Modern or Pioneer, where the answers are way better. If we ever get push or path they’ll probably unban her. Maybe if you park your guillotine outside WotC’s office they’ll consider unbanning her?
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Jun 8, 2020 23:00
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A Moose posted:What better answers do we need? Swords to Plowshares? Surgical Extraction? We have Meddling Mage so you can prevent them from even playing Winota. Assassin's Trophy straight up kills her for 2 mana. Dire Tactics exiles and doesn't even give them a land. Maybe you're mono-blue and you're playing Brazen Borrower into any counterspell. Containment Priest for 1. I don't know what else off the top of my head. Winota is a hosed up card, she has one too much toughness and one too little CMC. I don't really want Path, Seize, and Fatal Push in Historic but those are the reasons she's not as good in other formats.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:02
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Winota would probably not be playable as a x/3 for 5. It took one extremely weird format for the card to actually do anything as-is.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:05
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fadam posted:Winota would probably not be playable as a x/3 for 5. It took one extremely weird format for the card to actually do anything as-is. Probably right, on consideration, 3 toughness and a Casting cost of RW R/W R/W so at least Llanowar cannot accelerate into it turn 3, only Goose could, but Goose can't do both a 3 drop on turn two and Winota on 3 like Llanowar can.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:17
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It just always needed to be "Whenever Winota attacks, each other non-human attacking creature summons all the bullshit from your deck"
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Jun 8, 2020 23:40
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Tom Gorman posted:It just always needed to be "Whenever Winota attacks, each other non-human attacking creature summons all the bullshit from your deck" Agreed. Never understood why it wasn't designed with that clause.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:47
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in the other thread I listed every card that just deals with winota herself and costs less than 2, because they always go off when you only have 2 lands.A Moose posted:Then you can use Dire Tactics, Despark, Assassin's Trophy, Meddling Mage, Tyrant's Scorn, Essence Scatter, Agonizing Remose, Blink of an Eye, Disdainful Stroke, Fry, Heartfire, Heartless Act, Justice Strike, Quench or even Pounce. And those are just the constructed playable answers. In a post before that, I had already listed Noxious Grasp, Aether Gust, Grafdigger's Cage, Redcap Melee and whatever Fog effect is in Historic. Also you can add any red card that does any damage, because killing their mana dorks sets them back a turn AND gives fewer cretaures to trigger winota. Rhaegar posted:Agreed. Never understood why it wasn't designed with that clause. that would be completely unplayable. A Moose fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 23:48
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at a certain point, the win rate is the win rate. Maybe the meta didn't adapt to your liking because the deck is too good. Winota is bad for the format at the moment.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:54
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Lone Goat posted:cycling wasn't open. Yeah, you're right, I definitely should have taken the bond p1p3. I considered that pick for a good while, and my conclusion at the time was that the risk of drafting a bad cycling deck was lower than the chance of drafting a good reanimator deck. After that pick I of course aggressively cut off cycling to gamble for enablers in p2 (except for the p7 pacifism, because I feel like I always forget to draft removal and I was intending to compensate for that, probably to my own detriment) which obviously didn't come through. Pretty foolish decision at p1p3 in retrospect though because taking a 2-Mana cycler in an otherwise cycling-empty pack doesn't really "cut off" anything. Better to just take a good enabler early. I was gonna justify the cubwarden pick p3p2 given that I had so few creatures but thinking about it, I really shouldn't have taken it over a 1 Mana cycler, even at the point of the draft where I knew the deck wasn't gonna be very good (although I had thought at the time it would be at least serviceable if I picked up some on-color bodies to stall for time while I dug for flare or stingers). Thanks for the feedback. On review it's sort of a relief to see that a possible alternate path for the draft did exist that I couldn't see (or refused to see) at the time.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:58
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AngryBooch posted:at a certain point, the win rate is the win rate. Maybe the meta didn't adapt to your liking because the deck is too good. Winota is bad for the format at the moment. They didn't really give it any time either. There weren't any tournaments between Hoogland's where the deck first showed up and now, and that's where you see decks/metas get refined, when people are playing for prizes. People just jammed it on Bo1 ladder and reddit kicked up such a fuss they suspended it, probably until containment priest comes out. Gyruda was a deck for longer in Standard, and that didn't get banned.
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Jun 8, 2020 23:59
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A Moose posted:They didn't really give it any time either. There weren't any tournaments between Hoogland's where the deck first showed up and now, and that's where you see decks/metas get refined, when people are playing for prizes. People just jammed it on Bo1 ladder and reddit kicked up such a fuss they suspended it, probably until containment priest comes out. Gyruda was a deck for longer in Standard, and that didn't get banned. I think the meta had adapted as much as it reasonably could. Every Historic deck I look at is playing 3X or 4X Redcaps, Dire Tactics, Grasps, Cages, etc. I play Mardu Humans running 11 maindeck answers to Winota and 16 postboard. My winrate game 1 was 30% and only 55% after boarding. Don't know what else to say, I don't want to see Historic turn into one of those formats where you play Oko or Hogaak or you're running decks with 4 Disputes and 4 Gusts main or 4 Leylines main. Like, I'm running 4 Giant Slayers and 4 Dire Tactics. Am I supposed to have my Redcaps and Cages in the Main? That's not the sign of a healthy format to me.
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Jun 9, 2020 00:09
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AngryBooch posted:I think the meta had adapted as much as it reasonably could. Every Historic deck I look at is playing 3X or 4X Redcaps, Dire Tactics, Grasps, Cages, etc. 8 md answers in game 1 should be more than enough tbh. Perhaps your bad record is due to other circumstances like it just being a bad matchup. I play Nexus and get my cheeks clapped by Gruul and Mono red (don’t track my winrate but probably sub 50) and I don’t think either deck needs to go. Idk, I guess Wizards has the data and I don’t, but I think banning Winota in bo3 is kind of silly, but I also don’t think the format is worse for it being gone. It’s a caveman deck that gear checks the opponent’s interaction, there’s very little room to actually play a Magic game when you’re matched against it. The good news is there are a bunch of other fun and powerful decks in the format that Winota players can play instead! Hopefully they didn’t blow all their wild cards on niche rares and mythics that are unplayable anywhere else 🥴 fadam fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Jun 9, 2020 |
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Jun 9, 2020 00:21
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I just won 8 bo3s in a row to get to mythic with gruul aggro. Winota really isn't a problem in this meta like Burning Tree Emissary is
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Jun 9, 2020 00:27
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fadam posted:8 md answers in game 1 should be more than enough tbh. Perhaps your bad record is due to other circumstances like it just being a bad matchup. I play Nexus and get my cheeks clapped by Gruul and Mono red (don’t track my winrate but probably sub 50) and I don’t think either deck needs to go. I can’t get nexus to work against pretty much any matchup. Part of it is I’m not super used to the BO3 queue so mulliganing is still kind of all over the place, but I guess I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be doing against control and monoR and the rest of the Aggro can just beat me before I can do anything.
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Jun 9, 2020 00:28
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sephiRoth IRA posted:I can’t get nexus to work against pretty much any matchup. Part of it is I’m not super used to the BO3 queue so mulliganing is still kind of all over the place, but I guess I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be doing against control and monoR and the rest of the Aggro can just beat me before I can do anything. Aggro is definitely tough, most of my SB is devoted to not getting run over in games 2 and 3. What’s your list look like Control (at least UW and Esper) I quite like post board. Veto is annoying, but I find they eventually run out of ways to stop you assembling your engine. Game 1 is tougher just because they have MD counter magic and I don’t, but again they have a hard time just stopping you from going over them.
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Jun 9, 2020 00:35
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Rhaegar posted:Agreed. Never understood why it wasn't designed with that clause. It's stuff like this where you can start to pick apart the levers they use for balance. It was probably an attack trigger at one point, and after seeing the set in-whole they decided it was missing a constructed-playable card or two. So they settle on this OK draft build around rare and carve a mana off of it, then later move up the timing of the trigger. Now that's an exciting card! But it's too good in multiple, so make it legendary. But we already have a white legendary soldier that does the reanimate thing and the set is legend heavy. So they swap the names and art on Winota and Broodmoth, maybe fiddle with the numbers one last time, test it for a couple of days and move on to the next thing.
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Jun 9, 2020 00:40
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The Clowner posted:Yeah, you're right, I definitely should have taken the bond p1p3. I considered that pick for a good while, and my conclusion at the time was that the risk of drafting a bad cycling deck was lower than the chance of drafting a good reanimator deck. After that pick I of course aggressively cut off cycling to gamble for enablers in p2 (except for the p7 pacifism, because I feel like I always forget to draft removal and I was intending to compensate for that, probably to my own detriment) which obviously didn't come through. Pretty foolish decision at p1p3 in retrospect though because taking a 2-Mana cycler in an otherwise cycling-empty pack doesn't really "cut off" anything. Better to just take a good enabler early. I mean in the moment I might have also dug in my heels and tried to stay the course, that's the thing I dislike second most about the existence of the cycling deck, it's completely busted if it's open and it's hard to pivot out of if its not open the thing I dislike most is that Zenith Flare shouldn't be able to go face.
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Jun 9, 2020 00:44
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So did anyone put up a Doom Foretold deck yet because I loved the hell out of that deck before it got buried under, uh, I forget what exactly killed Danse Manse aside from "dying before turn 4".
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Jun 9, 2020 00:49
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house of the dad posted:I just won 8 bo3s in a row to get to mythic with gruul aggro. Winota really isn't a problem in this meta like Burning Tree Emissary is Uhhhh. No. I don't even play gruul because its a caveman deck but historic would absolutely be insufferable without Gruul to keep the "I put 75 cards of goodstuff and field of the deads in my deck" in check.
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Jun 9, 2020 01:05
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It's a suspension and Winota is pretty obviously no Oko or Agent so they'll probably release her back in the wild in a month or two like they did with FotD.
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Jun 9, 2020 01:17
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Sedisp posted:Uhhhh. The highly refined play of turn 3 teferi. Truly the thinking man's magic.
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Jun 9, 2020 01:20
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GrandpaPants posted:So did anyone put up a Doom Foretold deck yet because I loved the hell out of that deck before it got buried under, uh, I forget what exactly killed Danse Manse aside from "dying before turn 4". I've been playing this one that's worked out well for me. Was easier before the companion nerf, seeing more aggro now but it's still fun. Companion 1 Kaheera, the Orphanguard Deck 2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper 4 Kaya's Wrath 4 Godless Shrine 2 Prison Realm 1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General 4 Oath of Kaya 1 Cavalier of Dawn 2 Disenchant 4 Temple of Silence 4 Doom Foretold 2 Castle Ardenvale 2 Castle Locthwain 4 The Birth of Meletis 2 Elspeth Conquers Death 2 Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis 4 Agonizing Remorse 3 Treacherous Blessing 2 Heartless Act 6 Plains 6 Swamp Sideboard 2 Cry of the Carnarium 2 The Wanderer 1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General 2 Despark 1 Cavalier of Dawn 3 Grafdigger's Cage 2 Duress 1 Elspeth Conquers Death 1 Kaheera, the Orphanguard
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Jun 9, 2020 01:30
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Lone Goat posted:the thing I dislike most is that Zenith Flare shouldn't be able to go face. yeah lol. Also most of the cycling 1 cards should have cycled for colored or even hybrid Mana. I think I remember reading somewhere that this was the case at some point in development but they changed it for ?reasons?
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Jun 9, 2020 01:36
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house of the dad posted:The highly refined play of turn 3 teferi. Truly the thinking man's magic. *casts sweeper*  *casts planeswalker* *casts sweeper* *casts planeswalker*
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Jun 9, 2020 01:43
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fadam posted:Aggro is definitely tough, most of my SB is devoted to not getting run over in games 2 and 3. What’s your list look like Running Emma's Simic build simply because I had never played Nexus before. I think I'm too much of a Gruul player to understand the high-level plays... stuff like what to Tamiyo for (Rec, I assume, most of the time unless I need a Root Snare?), what to do against control in Game 1 versus 2/3, and the general function of the deck. From watching her videos, I get that I need to get lands down and then just chain Nexuses via Tamiyo or Azcanta and eventually just bang out an Uro for 6/turn. Question: If I cast multiple Nexuses in a turn, do I get that many turns in a row? Deck 3 Tamiyo, Collector of Tales (WAR) 220 4 Island (IKO) 265 3 Forest (IKO) 274 4 Wilderness Reclamation (RNA) 149 3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (THB) 229 4 Growth Spiral (RNA) 178 2 Opt (ELD) 59 2 Search for Azcanta (XLN) 74 3 Root Snare (RNA) 137 4 Thassa's Intervention (THB) 72 2 Blink of an Eye (DAR) 46 3 Fabled Passage (ELD) 244 4 Temple of Mystery (M20) 255 4 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240 3 Blast Zone (WAR) 244 4 Breeding Pool (RNA) 246 2 Lonely Sandbar (ONS) 320 1 Castle Vantress (ELD) 242 1 Tranquil Thicket (ONS) 326 4 Nexus of Fate (M19) 306 Sideboard 3 Mystical Dispute (ELD) 58 4 Aether Gust (M20) 42 2 Grafdigger's Cage (M20) 227 2 Uncomfortable Chill (M19) 82 3 Cerulean Drake (M20) 53 1 Thryx, the Sudden Storm (THB) 76
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Jun 9, 2020 01:49
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That’s pretty close to mine, I’m just running borrowers instead of blinks and I don’t have the weird lands. If you’re having a hard time against aggro, consider putting some Lovestruck Beasts in your board. My SB plan against Aggro is take out Azcantas, shave opts (and a forest if I’m on the draw) and bring in beasts, gusts, and borrowers if it’s an Embercleave deck. What you search for with Tamiyo depends a lot on how the game is going and what you already have. The good news is that even if your search fails, loading your GY and potentially putting an Oro in there sets you up to stabilize. If I feel like I have protection in hand and enough life that I’m not going to die next turn, I typically either search for Wilderness or whatever piece I’m missing. If you have a ton of mana and can productively Thassa, grab one from the yard if you can. Seems like you probably want some sharks in there, too.
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Jun 9, 2020 02:03
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house of the dad posted:I just won 8 bo3s in a row to get to mythic with gruul aggro. Winota really isn't a problem in this meta like Burning Tree Emissary is What's your list?
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Jun 9, 2020 02:20
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Mat Cauthon posted:What's your list? Deck 3 Bonecrusher Giant (ELD) 115 4 Burning-Tree Emissary (GTC) 216 1 Domri's Ambush (WAR) 192 3 Embercleave (ELD) 120 1 Fabled Passage (ELD) 244 8 Forest (SLD) 67 2 Gallia of the Endless Dance (THB) 217 3 Gruul Spellbreaker (RNA) 179 2 Klothys, God of Destiny (THB) 220 4 Llanowar Elves (DAR) 168 6 Mountain (SLD) 66 4 Pelt Collector (GRN) 141 4 Questing Beast (ELD) 171 4 Robber of the Rich (ELD) 138 4 Rootbound Crag (XLN) 256 4 Stomping Ground (RNA) 259 3 Zhur-Taa Goblin (RNA) 215 Sideboard 2 Cindervines (RNA) 161 2 Domri's Ambush (WAR) 192 2 Goblin Ruinblaster (ZEN) 127 2 Domri, Anarch of Bolas (WAR) 191 3 Shifting Ceratops (M20) 194 2 Lava Coil (GRN) 108 2 Rampaging Ferocidon (XLN) 154 This is the super basic netdeck list. Winota ban just went in so I took out the redcap melees and put a couple domris in, but I don't really know what's optimal in the sideboard now.
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Jun 9, 2020 02:30
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NOT_A_VIRUS.EXE posted:I've been playing this one that's worked out well for me. Was easier before the companion nerf, seeing more aggro now but it's still fun. Played around with this and went for an Esper deck because I love me some danse manse. Shark Typhoon is surprisingly good in this deck since the Cycling helps against the Teferi mirror and the Enchantment really helps solidify the win since, well, everything is basically a noncreature spell. I guess you can also throw in Kaheera to play mind games, but I have literally never used her. Deck 3 Dance of the Manse (ELD) 186 4 Oath of Kaya (WAR) 209 4 Teferi, Time Raveler (WAR) 221 3 Plains (XLN) 261 2 Island (XLN) 265 4 Godless Shrine (RNA) 248 4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259 1 Swamp (XLN) 269 4 Hallowed Fountain (RNA) 251 2 Temple of Silence (M20) 256 4 Doom Foretold (ELD) 187 4 Omen of the Sea (THB) 58 2 Narset, Parter of Veils (WAR) 61 4 Shatter the Sky (THB) 37 2 Temple of Enlightenment (THB) 246 2 Elspeth Conquers Death (THB) 13 3 Shark Typhoon (IKO) 67 2 Temple of Deceit (THB) 245 4 The Birth of Meletis (THB) 5 2 Cry of the Carnarium (RNA) 70 Haven't figured out a sideboard yet since I was screwing around in BO1 but I imagine it's some combination of Despark, Veto, Mortify, and Cry. GrandpaPants fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Jun 9, 2020 |
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Jun 9, 2020 04:05
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fadam posted:That’s pretty close to mine, I’m just running borrowers instead of blinks and I don’t have the weird lands. thanks man, I'll screw with it a bit.
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Jun 9, 2020 04:30
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I just beat LSV on Arena. Arena is pretty cool sometimes.
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Jun 9, 2020 06:25
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Lone Goat posted:I mean in the moment I might have also dug in my heels and tried to stay the course, that's the thing I dislike second most about the existence of the cycling deck, it's completely busted if it's open and it's hard to pivot out of if its not open I agree with this a lot, I really just don't like going for the cycling deck a lot of the time, you take an early fox and some 1 mana cyclers and are just hoping it's open after that, pivoting out is hard and when the deck doesnt come together its really not very good as its so threat light and has little reach, I basically only ever go for it when I see zenith flare these days and half the time I get cut off and go 2/3-3. Overall I've had a lot of fun in this format but I'm quite tired of it, Ive played it a ton, once i hit mythic (next day or two) I'm just gonna sit back and wait for the next set to drop. Stangg fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jun 9, 2020 |
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Jun 9, 2020 07:09
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 12:43 |
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Theros and Ikoria turned me into a limited convert. I pretty much just do ranked to complete quests and get to gold.
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Jun 9, 2020 07:15
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