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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Uh didn't the Sharans show up and immediately C-beam the Aes Sedai encampment?

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calandryll
Apr 25, 2003

Ask me where I do my best drinking!



Pillbug

I want to say the soundtrack was one of my first purchases on Amazon. Got the CD buried somewhere in a box.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Was RJ really bad at managing his IP or was the IP and other fantasy IPs at that time just not worth very much? There are just a bunch of weird, esoteric things in the hands of very questionable people that came out of the Wheel of Time while he was alive and even now not much is being done with it other than the Amazon show (which I assume is the test to see if anything else should be done with it).

The video game is bizarre. The comics had all sorts of production issues. The TV rights bounced around forever. There was one really lame Kickstarter that was basically in the same vein as the 20 minute "Dragonmount", basically just demonstration that the rights holders were "attempting to do something" with them so they didn't revert. Plus the soundtrack mentioned above.

I think the only thing that isn't a total headscratcher is the D20 sourcebook.

Gnoman
Feb 11, 2014

"What we therefore hath joined together, let Gnoman put asunder..."


Spinoff material in general wasn't as big a thing as you would expect. A lot of it was just "fine, I'll take your money - I'll never have to look at the crap". There wasn't much worry about damaging the brand, because nobody really cared that the ancillary crap was crap.

Barreft
Jul 21, 2014

A stallion like me only comes around once a year.

JOHN SKELETON posted:

All three prologue scenes from the last three books with random new characters are great, they set the tone amazingly well. It's really surprising how well Sanderson can do dark, foreboding tone like that when you compare to some of the non-WoT books of his I've read.

Here's a dumb thing that's been bugging me about AMoL now that I think about it: Throughout the Last Battle, Egwene and all the Aes Sedai are just blasting the gently caress out of the Sharan army. I don't think there's a single mention of the three vows in the entire book. At some point Egwene even has to collateral damage some civilians with lightning for whatever reason. Is this a plot hole or are we to assume the Aes Sedai were constantly considering their life in danger?

I haven't read further cause I go for the just post mentality. But from what I remember, the random farmers bit, the tower soldiers son, and isam at the town were all RJ written for the prologue.

E: also it was the literal Last Battle in their minds. So yes they thought they were in danger. Also they were being killed so yes in their minds they were in danger because they were bring shot at and killed. Yes.

Barreft fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Apr 7, 2021

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





i don't think 'prestige tv' and whatever for fantasy stuff was really as big of a thing back then, it probably wasn't until game of thrones hit it big that people started realizing that maybe some of these other series could maybe make some cash if they put some vague amount of effort into what they were doing, which is probably why amazon got in on wheel of time i'm sure. possibly the lord of the rings movies sparked some initial, faint interest even before that. i don't know. but yeah beyond those things they usually didn't give much of a poo poo because the books themselves were most of the main focus and the rest was mostly pumped out for a quick buck.

Barreft
Jul 21, 2014

A stallion like me only comes around once a year.

Anyone got a good image for an ebook of A Memory of Light? I hate the dumb pic of Rand with the sword. I need a good one for my TGS+TOM in timeline order plus AMOL.

I've just used: https://i.imgur.com/x9kDaxb.jpg

But now seeing it again just right there I really like it still so I'll probably keep it.

Barreft fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Apr 7, 2021

Basileus777
Jun 13, 2013


JOHN SKELETON posted:

But I don't think Sharan's are Darkfriends? None of them explicitly say they serve The Great Lord, they are just following the Wyld who says he's the savior. So they're more misguided pawns than actual followers. I suppose you could make a case that the Aes Sedai think they are Darkfriends, but it's never brought up in text as far as I noticed.

It's a pretty easy jump to assume that people fighting along shadowspawn and under the command of the Forsaken at the last battle are Darkfriends. And that belief is enough to satisfy the oaths. No one at the battle is privy to all the details about why the Sharans are there.

th3t00t
Aug 14, 2007
my quarterback hates completions

I'm still surprised we haven't gotten a trailer yet. The Boys had their first big trailer out in Jan 2019 for their July 2019 debut. A 6th month gap. If we get a trailer tomorrow we're looking at an October release? It looks like Amazon is still shooting for a 2021 release date, so we've got to be close to a full trailer at this point... right?

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!



th3t00t posted:

I'm still surprised we haven't gotten a trailer yet. The Boys had their first big trailer out in Jan 2019 for their July 2019 debut. A 6th month gap. If we get a trailer tomorrow we're looking at an October release? It looks like Amazon is still shooting for a 2021 release date, so we've got to be close to a full trailer at this point... right?

One of the WoT YouTubers, I think Nae'blis maybe, was saying he suspected the trailer would be sometime in May, which if the six month rule holds puts us on time for a November 2021 release.

Gnoman
Feb 11, 2014

"What we therefore hath joined together, let Gnoman put asunder..."


November is a good guess in general - the start of Northern Hemisphere winter is the best time to start a TV program since so many more people will be inside a lot.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

I started listening to the audiobooks again because I wanted familiar and comfortable background noise, and just got up to Egwene's capture. The earlier discussion about the oaths and "who is a darkfriend?" made me realize something which, if they figured it out, the Seanchan could use as an incredibly potent piece of memetic warfare:

1. The Seanchan are not darkfriends.
2. Being leashed is not being killed.

(Bet you wish had warders now, Reds!)

Like, it'd require regular open communications to work, so my first thought was of it happening in the Fourth Age: some Seanchan ambassador in Tar Valon patiently explaining that of course the Seanchan Empire would never kill an Aes Sedai, waiting for the implications to sink in.

Crini
Sep 2, 2011


Vavrek posted:

I started listening to the audiobooks again because I wanted familiar and comfortable background noise, and just got up to Egwene's capture. The earlier discussion about the oaths and "who is a darkfriend?" made me realize something which, if they figured it out, the Seanchan could use as an incredibly potent piece of memetic warfare:

1. The Seanchan are not darkfriends.
2. Being leashed is not being killed.

(Bet you wish had warders now, Reds!)

Like, it'd require regular open communications to work, so my first thought was of it happening in the Fourth Age: some Seanchan ambassador in Tar Valon patiently explaining that of course the Seanchan Empire would never kill an Aes Sedai, waiting for the implications to sink in.

If the Tower were a agile and responsive organization I could see them altering the oaths to include a clause about being leashed.

The Tower before the books began probably isn’t that kind of organization, the one after might be.

Spek
Jun 15, 2012

Bagel!

"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai"

I dunno, it doesn't say anything about death. One could well interpret being collared as demane as essentially the end of her life.

Inspector 34
Mar 9, 2009
DOES NOT RESPECT THE RUN

BUT THEY WILL



Surely one of the classes the novices and accepted need to ace is Mental Gymnastics

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





yeah i don't think they're going to be mindgamed into magically accepting a scenario such as that. the oaths are very much something they can work their way around in most any scenario but the main thing is that they're not supposed to, to uphold the image of it. if push comes to shove they're absolutely going to do something to avoid it and explain themselves later if they have to.

Johnny Joestar fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Apr 11, 2021

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

They don't consider shielding or subduing people with the power as violating the oaths anyway, they just can't directly wound or kill with it. Warders are also not subject to the oaths.

If a Seanchan wants to make it a fight they will certainly be able to fight.

Also note that Seanchan's maximum circle size is 2, and as a sul'dam the second one doesn't meaningfully contribute any amount of power to the damane. They also do not have an effective way to control male channellers. Without the a'dam female-only circles can go up to 13 and if White Tower allies with Black Tower they can go up to 72. Past the Last Battle detente the channeller imbalance is untenable for Seanchan if they keep to the a'dam.

Once the Aiel joined the Dragons Peace the Seanchan should hope that the Peace and the side agreements they make with the Wise Ones and the Aes Sedai hold.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Apr 11, 2021

Democratic Pirate
Feb 17, 2010



Made it through the most recent chapter of that WoT liveblog. This past year has been rough for everyone, but hopefully she gets the blog going again. She’s has a ton of spot on predictions, and makes a case for Egwene being a better character than I remember, but brought down by the absolute cesspit of suck that is Gawyn.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!



Spek posted:

"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai"

I dunno, it doesn't say anything about death. One could well interpret being collared as demane as essentially the end of her life.


And really, the Warder line seals the deal. Because the Warder's going to fight to keep his Aes Sedai from getting collared, the Seanchan are going to try to kill him to get to her, so that give the Aes Sedai all the justification she needs to blast away, regardless of whether she herself feels life threatened.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

It's why I called out the Reds. I saw this as working to aid the Seanchan in capturing individual Aes Sedai, in the style of Egwene's capture, not in assaulting the Tower or any act of open warfare.

Defining life as a damane as no life at all is, I guess, one of the positions that my hypothetical Seanchan Ambassador / Psychological Warfare Expert has to patiently contest.


A thing I really like: In some fantasy novels, there might be some argument supported by the narrative (rather than merely given by the characters) that it's right for some people to be leashed, or that some people are better off leashed, live better lives leashed, perhaps want to be leashed. (Gor. I'm thinking of Gor.) In The Wheel of Time it is a monstrous and deliberately dehumanizing act which the narrative seems to abhor.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Jordan makes it pretty clear that consent is a requirement for morality.

Compulsion, leashing, bonding warders without asking, all made very clearly repugnant.

Bmac32
Nov 25, 2012


The a'dam creates a circle, and you can't join another circle if you are already in one. Can you use an established circle to keep from getting a'damed?

seaborgium
Aug 1, 2002

"Nothing a shitload of bleach won't fix"


Bmac32 posted:

The a'dam creates a circle, and you can't join another circle if you are already in one. Can you use an established circle to keep from getting a'damed?

You could, yeah. You'd have to constantly be in a circle though.

Plus, while it's harder to shield people in a circle, if you can single someone out and shield them would they drop out? I don't think that ever came up, as once the person you're trying to leash forms a circle you've got bigger problems and they're not going to drop it until they're safe from being leashed or they drop from exhaustion.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007



seaborgium posted:

You could, yeah. You'd have to constantly be in a circle though.

Plus, while it's harder to shield people in a circle, if you can single someone out and shield them would they drop out? I don't think that ever came up, as once the person you're trying to leash forms a circle you've got bigger problems and they're not going to drop it until they're safe from being leashed or they drop from exhaustion.

Idk if that's necessary true. It forcefully takes ownership of a circle iirc

ninjoatse.cx
Apr 9, 2005



Fun Shoe

seaborgium posted:

You could, yeah. You'd have to constantly be in a circle though.

Plus, while it's harder to shield people in a circle, if you can single someone out and shield them would they drop out? I don't think that ever came up, as once the person you're trying to leash forms a circle you've got bigger problems and they're not going to drop it until they're safe from being leashed or they drop from exhaustion.

From Jordan:

quote:

WEEK 8 QUESTION

When a person that can channel is shielded, where is the shield placed? Is it placed around the whole body of the person or around the head of the channeler where they sense saidin/saidar? If you are shielded from the One Power, are you also shielded from the True Power? What happens if someone in a circle is shielded? Can a Warder feel that his Aes Sedai is shielded?

ROBERT JORDAN

A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between. (In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore and a shield. Both simply exist in different states simultaneously.) Someone who is shielded and trying to get past the shield can "feel" their way along its inner "surface" hunting for weaknesses, such as the points that indicate where the shield is being maintained or has been tied off. Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power. It isn't possible to shield one person out of a circle since, in effect, the circle has become a single person for the purpose of channeling. You would have to shield the entire circle, which would require either a circle of your own or a pretty hefty sa'angreal. A Warder cannot feel that his Aes Sedai has been shielded, though he would be aware of any agitation on her part. But this would tell him no more than that she was agitated.

Bmac32
Nov 25, 2012


seaborgium posted:

You could, yeah. You'd have to constantly be in a circle though.

Plus, while it's harder to shield people in a circle, if you can single someone out and shield them would they drop out? I don't think that ever came up, as once the person you're trying to leash forms a circle you've got bigger problems and they're not going to drop it until they're safe from being leashed or they drop from exhaustion.

I would tactic it out as a circle of 13 sisters taking shifts. You can keep someone in the circle, even while sleeping I think, so just pass the lead when someone needed to sleep. But if you are fighting Seanchan, definitely go against them in circles, for multiple reasons.

As far as the separating someone, what happened to the sisters at Dumai's Well's? When Rand finally breaks free of the shield they had on him, where the sisters linked? He stilled a few of them. Did they all sort of drop the circle at once cause of the surprise?

Spek
Jun 15, 2012

Bagel!

Bmac32 posted:

As far as the separating someone, what happened to the sisters at Dumai's Well's? When Rand finally breaks free of the shield they had on him, where the sisters linked? He stilled a few of them. Did they all sort of drop the circle at once cause of the surprise?

The sisters were gradually tying off their portion of the shield and going to help with the fighting. Rand was then able to break the portion of the shield that had been tied off bit by bit until only, I think, 3 remained. Breaking through that shield caused them to lose their grip on Saidar and severed a couple of them.

The tying off portions of the shield kind of implies they weren't linked but I have no idea why they wouldn't be, it would certainly make more sense for them to be. I have a very vague, quite possible wrong, memory of someone talking about it being a tradition that they don't link when shielding someone like that but I don't remember where that might've happened.

Bmac32
Nov 25, 2012


Spek posted:

The sisters were gradually tying off their portion of the shield and going to help with the fighting. Rand was then able to break the portion of the shield that had been tied off bit by bit until only, I think, 3 remained. Breaking through that shield caused them to lose their grip on Saidar and severed a couple of them.

The tying off portions of the shield kind of implies they weren't linked but I have no idea why they wouldn't be, it would certainly make more sense for them to be. I have a very vague, quite possible wrong, memory of someone talking about it being a tradition that they don't link when shielding someone like that but I don't remember where that might've happened.

Man, you're right. Totally forgot that they were leaving. They should have been linked since that was Tower tradition when moving a man who could channel, but that was a very different situation.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

seaborgium posted:

Plus, while it's harder to shield people in a circle, if you can single someone out and shield them would they drop out?

I think if you somehow manage to knock out a single sister they would leave the circle. But the remaining circle is still exponentially stronger than the sum of the parts soooo

Inspector 34
Mar 9, 2009
DOES NOT RESPECT THE RUN

BUT THEY WILL



Just slap the a'dam on the sister leading the circle. Boom, done.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


The sisters might have voluntarily left the circle. Recall that one episode with Cadsuane and the Mashadar fog, where one of her Aes Sedai ask whether they should form a circle, and Cadsuane thinks it's better not to link, so that each sister can react to a danger she sees without having to get the attention of the sister leading the circle. Likewise, the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells were defending against a horde of Aiel, and might have thought it to be better if all of them could throw fireballs to keep them at bay.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

I think if you somehow manage to knock out a single sister they would leave the circle. But the remaining circle is still exponentially stronger than the sum of the parts soooo

Actually I think a circle's power is less than the sums of the individuals' powers. When Elayne was teaching the Sea Folk linking before using the Bowl of the Winds she made a comment to that effect.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!



Morbid Hound

Inspector 34 posted:

Just slap the a'dam on the sister leading the circle. Boom, done.

That wouldn't work for the same reasons. A crossbow bolt through the skull would though.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





DarkHorse posted:

Actually I think a circle's power is less than the sums of the individuals' powers. When Elayne was teaching the Sea Folk linking before using the Bowl of the Winds she made a comment to that effect.

Wwwwwwhy do it then? What's the advantage?

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers


0.9x13 is still a lot more than 1. Plus then you can put all of that power into one big weave rather than many small ones, and for things like Bowl of the Winds where you need a ton of power AND someone who knows what the gently caress....

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get, the more I feel like laughing.



DarkHorse posted:

Actually I think a circle's power is less than the sums of the individuals' powers. When Elayne was teaching the Sea Folk linking before using the Bowl of the Winds she made a comment to that effect.

Does this hold true for circles with the proper ratio of men to women? I know there were some distinctions noted in the latter books once we got POVs from people who had been in integrated circles but I can't remember if power level was one of the things.

Gwaihir
Dec 8, 2009



Hair Elf

Mat Cauthon posted:

Does this hold true for circles with the proper ratio of men to women? I know there were some distinctions noted in the latter books once we got POVs from people who had been in integrated circles but I can't remember if power level was one of the things.

I think that's true- balanced circles are greater than the sum of their parts, by a not inconsiderable margin?

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Not in terms of raw strength, but in terms of, like, the effect and complexity of weaves.

Skyl3lazer
Aug 27, 2007

[Dooting Stealthily]





Ok, I just finished book 6, and need some help deciphering what the gently caress actually happened?

End of Crown of Swords posted:

At first, he could not see Sammael, but then someone moved among the fluted, flaring columns of a palace. Rand waited. He wanted to be sure; he had only one chance. The figure stepped forward, out of the columns and a pace into the square, head swinging this way and that. Sammael, with snowy lace shining at his throat, waiting to see Rand walk into the square, into the traps. Behind him, the glow in the windows of the palace brightened. Sammael peered into the darkness lying across the square, and Mashadar oozed out of the windows, thick billows of silver-gray fog sliding together, merging as they loomed above his head. Sammael walked a little to one side, and the wave began to descend, slowly picking up speed as it fell.

Rand shook his head. Sammael was his. The flows needed for balefire seemed to gather themselves, despite the far echo of Cadsuane’s voice. He raised his hand.

A scream tore the darkness, a woman shrieking in agony beyond knowing. Rand saw Sammael turn to stare toward the great mound of rubble even as his own eyes flashed that way. Atop the mound a shape stood outlined against the night sky in coat and breeches, a single thin tendril of Mashadar touching her leg. Arms outstretched, she thrashed about, unable to move from the spot, and her wordless wail seemed to call Rand’s name.

“Liah,” he whispered. Unconsciously he reached out, as though he could stretch his arm across the intervening distance and pull her away. Nothing could save what Mashadar touched, though, no more than anything could have saved him had Fain’s dagger plunged into his heart. “Liah,” he whispered. And balefire leaped from his hand.

For less than a heartbeat, the shape of her still seemed to be there, all in stark blacks and snowy whites, and then she was gone, dead before her agony began.

Screaming, Rand swept the balefire down toward the square, the rubble collapsing on itself, swept down death out of time—and let saidin go before the bar of white touched the lake of Mashadar that now rolled across the square, billowing past the Waygate toward rivers of glowing gray that flowed out from another palace on the other side. Sammael had to be dead. He had to be. There had not been time for him to run, no time to weave a gateway, and if he had, Rand would have felt saidin being worked. Sammael was dead, killed by an evil almost as great as himself. Emotion raced across the outside of the Void; Rand wanted to laugh, or perhaps cry. He had come here to kill one of the Forsaken, but instead he had killed a woman he had abandoned here to her fate.

So what exactly happened here, in less flowery prose? Rand sees Sammael, with the fog growing above him. Sammael steps to the side (to avoid the fog, I assume). Rand gets made and starts to channel, but sees Liah being poked by fog. Rand then shoots her with the balefire instead (?), and sweeps the laser across the area, but stops before he hits the fog. The place where Sammael was is now engulfed in fog (?), and Rand is sure that means Sammael is dead.

I'm avoiding spoilers as to future books, but that entire sequence is just confusing to me. Why did Rand zap Liah? Why didn't he zap the fog (that would have saved her)? Why does that action cause Sammael to be absorbed in the fog, when clearly he was avoiding it before? It even says "He had come here to kill one of the Forsaken, but instead he had killed a woman he had abandoned here to her fate," which seems to be in direct contradiction to his previous claim he knows Sammael is dead.

Like at the end of the day all of the Forsaken that have died kind of went out like chumps, but this seems to be just silly. Sammael supposedly planned the confrontation in Shadar Logoth, but he just walked in and got eaten? Rand's actions with balefire don't seem to have any influence on Sammael's demise.

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Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!



Morbid Hound

Rand's insane at that point for one thing.

With liah he's trying for a mercy killing.

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