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tsob posted:I thought the entire point of balefire is that it burns you out of the pattern forever; that the reason it's so dangerous is because it's causing actual damage to the Pattern, and using it too much can damage the Pattern to the point it can't work around it or recover from those lost threads? nope e: at the forever part
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Sep 14, 2022 17:32
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tsob posted:I thought the entire point of balefire is that it burns you out of the pattern forever; that the reason it's so dangerous is because it's causing actual damage to the Pattern, and using it too much can damage the Pattern to the point it can't work around it or recover from those lost threads? It destabilizes the pattern and makes reality weird because a bunch of it unravels, Jordan clarified it doesn't burn everything out forever though. The reason it prevents resurrection for the Forsaken is that the Dark One needs to grab them at the instant of their death and when that retroactively happens an hour before they died he misses the window and they pass on. quote:JOHN NOVAK quote:WEEK 3 QUESTION (MATT HATCH) quote:QUESTION Zore fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 17:35
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It can cause damage to the pattern if too much is used at once and too many threads burnt out and causes time travel type problems but not long term problems once it stops being used. Jordan confirmed people who get balefired are not dead forever.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:36
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Yeah, I realized almost immediately after posting that the idea it burned the person/thread out of the pattern forever can't be right, since Lews Therin Telamon killed himself using a huge lance of balefire that created Dragonmount it caused so much damage to the actual environment. So obviously the Pattern itself can eventually mend them back into a new life, but the Dark One can't. I wonder if the Dark One would care about catching the same people again and again in that case? Or would they even notice, beyond a few important people like Ishamael (since Ishamael is probably his champion)?
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Sep 14, 2022 17:46
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Ishy was born before the bore iirc so I think he's just a philosopher.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:48
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LTT didn't use balefire on himself.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:50
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Ishy was born before the bore iirc so I think he's just a philosopher. Yeah, he was a world famous philosopher who got incredibly deep in the weeds once he learned about the existence of the Dark One and realized that reality was eventually going to end. So he decided to go for broke with it and then went insane after the bore was sealed because he was on the outermost layer so he could feel the passage of time and managed to get out for 40 year stretches every 1000 years or so. There's nothing that suggests he remembers anything more than his time in the AoL and current age, but he's lived like 3500+ years even with just that and wasn't in stasis for any of it.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:51
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I think Jordan has said ltt didn't use balefire at the end. Which, I mean, if he had things might have gotten complicated.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:53
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Zore posted:Yeah, he was a world famous philosopher who got incredibly deep in the weeds once he learned about the existence of the Dark One and realized that reality was eventually going to end. So he decided to go for broke with it and then went insane after the bore was sealed because he was on the outermost layer so he could feel the passage of time and managed to get out for 40 year stretches every 1000 years or so. Plus using the TP like water made him feel even more insane and feeling like the Dark One
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Sep 14, 2022 17:53
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Its never confirmed he's the dark ones champion like dragon is for the light but I like the idea personally so that's my head canon.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:59
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Ishy was born before the bore iirc so I think he's just a philosopher. Sure, but everyone has to have been born at some point before they become aligned to any given side. Ishamael certainly seems to believe he's been reborn again and again, and opposed Rand numerous times and honestly, I don't really see a reason to doubt that it's at least possible; even if he's wrong that he specifically (or his soul) has done so. Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think Jordan has said ltt didn't use balefire at the end. Which, I mean, if he had things might have gotten complicated. Huh...weird. I always assumed it was balefire once it comes up in the story, but reading online it seems to just be described as Lews Therin drawing too much of the One Power. Which, I'm not really sure why it'd draw down a huge lance of light like that in his case since any time anyone else overused the power it just burned them from the inside if I recall? tsob fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 18:05
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A lot of stuff in the first book doesn't *quite* fit with the magic system of the series as a whole. On this general discussion, I love the line from Moridin in their dreamshard conversation, when Rand says "I killed you. I saw you die" or something, and he responds "You know, I watched you die." Just two dead people reborn, grumbling about their roles in the cosmos.
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Sep 14, 2022 18:14
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He says during veins of gold that lews therin when he died drew as much as the choeden Kal does. That might explain it.
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Sep 14, 2022 18:16
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If he'd balefired himself his family might still be alive.
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Sep 14, 2022 18:30
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Colonel Cool posted:If he'd balefired himself his family might still be alive. Also he'd have un broke the world and un won the war.
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Sep 14, 2022 19:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Also he'd have un broke the world and un won the war. Gotta time it just right.
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Sep 14, 2022 20:12
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Be some a+ trolling if he wasted ishy then balefired himself Dude would be all oh God yes finally sweet oblivion FUUUUUUUUUUUCK
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Sep 14, 2022 20:14
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Colonel Cool posted:If he'd balefired himself his family might still be alive. It depends on how big the balefire is; even the big bar of it that Rand hit Rahvin with seemed to only undo a relatively short time frame. Maybe a half hour or less. It also depends on how long Lews Therin's family were dead. It seemed to be hours, if not days. I very much doubt he could run the clock back far enough to undo the sealing, since that was almost certainly days or weeks by that point. He went mad the second he completed the sealing, but that doesn't mean he went home immediately. Or that Ishamael sought him out to gloat straight after. I got the impression it'd been weeks by then, and that his family were dead with days as he wondered silent halls gibbering to himself personally. Then again, I got the impression he'd balefired himself, so what do I know... 
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Sep 14, 2022 20:32
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tsob posted:It depends on how big the balefire is; even the big bar of it that Rand hit Rahvin with seemed to only undo a relatively short time frame. Maybe a half hour or less. It also depends on how long Lews Therin's family were dead. It seemed to be hours, if not days. I very much doubt he could run the clock back far enough to undo the sealing, since that was almost certainly days or weeks by that point. He went mad the second he completed the sealing, but that doesn't mean he went home immediately. Or that Ishamael sought him out to gloat straight after. FWIW my impression was it was something less than hours plural, he'd killed them all, turned around, forgot, and started wandering.
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Sep 14, 2022 20:53
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I don't think we can actually really know how far back Rahvin got burned, can we? Not for certain, at least. We know that the people that he killed directly with the Power at the very start of the fight got un-killed, but prior to that he was just chilling in the throne room and we don't know of anything he did that can be confirmed (or not) to be un-did.
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Sep 14, 2022 23:08
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bio347 posted:I don't think we can actually really know how far back Rahvin got burned, can we? Not for certain, at least. We know that the people that he killed directly with the Power at the very start of the fight got un-killed, but prior to that he was just chilling in the throne room and we don't know of anything he did that can be confirmed (or not) to be un-did. He just finished announcing his proposal for a progressive income tax in Andor as a means to destroy the entrenched power of the nobility, why do you think Rand chose that moment to attack?
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Sep 15, 2022 04:13
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We were talking about the horror stuff on the last page and I just remembered the part of the Rhuidean ter'angreal Aiel memories thing (the arches/rings or whatever Rand goes into) where the Shaido guy who's gone in before Rand literally, over a series of snapshots, claws his own eyes out of the sockets, right in front of Rand.tsob posted:Lanfear skinning Hadnan Kadere happens off-screen and we just see her standing in the center of Hadnan's exploded caravan holding his bloody corpse, but Rand is so focused on everything else happening that you could get the same approximate effect by having it only show that for a second (or less) before moving on, with Lanfear dropping it and no-one addressing it because it's just not important compared to everything else happening. Gwaihir posted:I think most of the difference is that there's disturbing things that happen, but the book USUALLY doesn't revel or spend extensive time on them. It's more often a blink and you'll miss it moment, like the mentioned bit with Lanfear and Kadere. bio347 posted:If you look at it from a slight angle, EotW is basically a horror novel. Or perhaps a bunch of horror short stories jammed together. The later books don't really share the same feeling, so you probably don't want to lean into it too hard if you're planning on adapting the whole thing, but an EotW-only series that does would be pretty rad I think. His Divine Shadow posted:The whole escape from the two rivers really was prime horror material if handled correctly. Sad we'll never get to see it. Hexel posted:Looks like NYCC is our next opportunity for some significant season 2 news.
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Sep 15, 2022 10:10
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An interesting article popped up in my newsfeed this morning. The guy who wrote the upcoming Origins of the Wheel of Time book talks about how, while going through Jordan's notes for the book, he realized that the world map created for The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time book years ago was wrong, and Jordan sent numerous requests to the publisher to correct it without any apparent success. The errors being two fold: firstly, that the southernmost landmass that mirrors Australia should be named "the Mad Lands" and not "the Land of Madmen", and secondly that the Seanchan continent was smaller than it should be. By quite a ways. Jordan wanted it to extend lower on the southern hemisphere, and for the entire southern hemisphere portion to be extended quite a lot wider. So the map essentially goes from this in The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time:  to this in Origins of the Wheel of Time:  With the permission of Jordan's wife, assistant etc. Which, frankly, makes more sense, since the ocean in the original map looked yawningly big and that entire portion of the map looked kind of empty. Not like that's impossible for a fictional setting that includes magic that hosed up geography or anything, obviously; but it just looks a lot more aesthetically pleasing with the new arrangement. That aside, he also says that some of the geographical features of the Seanchan continent in the original map, like how rivers were laid out, were physically impossible and I'm not actually versed enough to know why; so I'm curious if anyone can illuminate that point further, out of curiousity. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:FWIW my impression was it was something less than hours plural, he'd killed them all, turned around, forgot, and started wandering. I went back and re-read the prologue a few hours ago to see if there's any indication of time, because I thought there might be sentences noting whether blood was fresh or congealed etc, but I can't spot anything that implies how long ago Lews Therin had killed his family beyond noting that "the palace still shook occasionally as the earth rumbled in memory" as the opening line. Which, apropos of nothing, is a really good opening line. It's only really a vague implication at best, but the usage of the word "memory" there implies it's been at least a little while to me. It could absolutely just be poetic license to make for a nicer sounding line though, so I'm happy to admit it means nothing. Beyond that the only other thing even vaguely implying it is the fact Ishamael says that Lews Therin killed everyone he ever loved and everyone who ever loved him. Which, again, could just be poetic wording and Ishamael being vindicate by implying he killed more than just his family and those in his home/palace, but it implies something that took a while, and probably wasn't confined just to his home to me. I think a stronger implication though is in Ishamael's line that "Even now the Hundred Companions are tearing the world apart, and every day a hundred men more join them.". The fact he says that "every day" a hundred men join the ranks of those infected with Saidin's madness implies it's been at least a few days to me, to have such a measure on how quickly things are progressing. I still think Lews Therin's death reads as balefire too: Dragonmount posted:The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. The description of light liquefied, a shining bar that existed only for a moment and blindingly bright light etc. just reads like balefire. It isn't, and the prose even describes him drawing deeply on the Power, beyond what he could safely hold, but I imagine that's why I just assumed without even thinking further on it that it was balefire for years once balefire's properties are clarified in book 4 or 5. bio347 posted:I don't think we can actually really know how far back Rahvin got burned, can we? Not for certain, at least. We know that the people that he killed directly with the Power at the very start of the fight got un-killed, but prior to that he was just chilling in the throne room and we don't know of anything he did that can be confirmed (or not) to be un-did. I feel like there's some implication in the text that Asmodean, Aviendha and Mat were only just inside the window, and that something else that had happened hadn't been undone, but I couldn't honestly tell you why at the moment. I have vague recollections of the text describing a wall falling and causing damage that Rand notes hasn't been undone or something, but I'll have to re-read the chapter later when I get the chance to see if it's just memory being fuzzy, getting details mixed up or what. tsob fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 11:09
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Grandael was at the fight too so damage she did wasn't undone.
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Sep 15, 2022 11:15
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Wasn't her only part in it to turn up and kill Asmodean after the battle was done?
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Sep 15, 2022 11:30
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tsob posted:Wasn't her only part in it to turn up and kill Asmodean after the battle was done? No. She was with Rahvin attacking Rand and co. This is part of how someone actually figured out it was Graendal that killed Asmodean years before Jordan revealed it. Edit: after looking it up online can't find anything mentioning this, so might be faulty memories of something I read long ago. cheesetriangles fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 11:37
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cheesetriangles posted:No. She was with Rahvin attacking Rand and co. This is part of how someone actually figured out it was Graendal that killed Asmodean years before Jordan revealed it. I can't re-read the actual book at the moment, and probably can't for a few days, but checking online the only passage I can find mentioning Graendal directly to tie her to the attack is: The Fires of Heaven posted:Nynaeve gave the leash a short tug, staggering her. “I know that. Tell me something new.” The woman was captive here, but the a’dam only existed so long as they were in Tel’aran’rhiod. So Moghedien thinks/knows Graendal will be waiting with Rahvin to attack Rand; but that seems to be assuming he'll go to attack Sammael in Illian rather than Rahvin in Caemlyn. Which might be why Graendal isn't there during the attack itself, since Rahvin was paranoid enough to protect himself but the others expected the attack elsewhere. There doesn't seem to be any direct mention of her during the attack itself, going off chapter summaries on the Wiki or looking up people talking about the chapter during re-reads etc. That said, you're right that people used that mention of Graendal to place her as the most likely suspect (along with lower odds on Taim, Sammael etc) years before it was actively revealed going off discussion from 10/15 years ago in those pages. tsob fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 11:46
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The other big clue is that she thinks about objects she had removed from Illian, after Sammael's death. It stands to reason she'd take that opportunity with others.
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Sep 15, 2022 11:51
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Graendal really got a lot of forsaken killed. Aran'gar, Maessana, Asmodean more directly and kinda lead to the deaths of Ravhin and Sammael with her plotting.
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Sep 15, 2022 12:07
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cheesetriangles posted:Graendal really got a lot of forsaken killed. Aran'gar, Maessana, Asmodean more directly and kinda lead to the deaths of Ravhin and Sammael with her plotting. I mean, they were all planning to kill or at least humiliate and make subservient the others, beyond arguably Ishamael; so really, that just makes her more successful than the others if anything. That said, how was she responsible for Mesaana's death (well...infantilization, mind death, whatever) again?
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Sep 15, 2022 12:31
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tsob posted:I mean, they were all planning to kill or at least humiliate and make subservient the others, beyond arguably Ishamael; so really, that just makes her more successful than the others if anything. That said, how was she responsible for Mesaana's death (well...infantilization, mind death, whatever) again? This one is pretty indirect, her plan was give Slayer the dream spike to keep Perrin's army from Traveling then ambush them with trollocs via portal stone, but Perrin swiped the dream spike and took it to Tar Valon while the tower fight happened, so it trapped everyone on the island there instead of letting them escape to whatever spot they had planned to take Egwene.
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Sep 15, 2022 13:05
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Really weird to think that RJ died 15 years ago tomorrow. Time is an illusion.
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Sep 15, 2022 13:49
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Really weird to think that RJ died 15 years ago tomorrow. Time is an illusion. well, drat.
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Sep 15, 2022 14:11
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El Grillo posted:I think this is the first time Rafe has been at a public Q&A since season 1 He actually did a rather extensive Q&A via twitter after San Diego Comic Con a couple months ago. The panel at SDCC was about the animated origins and the in-panel questions were related to that, afterwards it seems he got a little tipsy and answered a ton of S2 questions on twitter. There's a recap of all the questions and answers here: https://dragonmount.com/news/tv-show/in-case-you-missed-it-rafe-judkins-answers-fan-questions-on-twitter-r1293/ Hexel fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 15:20
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I think part of the Graendal/Caemlyn theory was that Rand had a bunch of fish bite wounds or something still after he balefired Rahvin so people assumed there was another attacker around, but then later someone confirmed that balefire doesn't necessarily cancel out Tel'aran'rhiod injuries.
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Sep 15, 2022 16:41
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tsob posted:
I remember there being some bit about how he had set up wards all over the city to be able to find men who were channeling, and those would have still been up. So even big amounts of balefire wouldn't have gone back weeks or even days.
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Sep 15, 2022 17:03
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cheesetriangles posted:No. She was with Rahvin attacking Rand and co. This is part of how someone actually figured out it was Graendal that killed Asmodean years before Jordan revealed it. You're technically correct which is the best kind of correct. Taimandred actually killed asmodean but then Jordan changed his mind on taimandred so had to figure it out again. When Sanderson went through Jordan's notes te asmodean, all they found was the wotfaq graendal theory printed out with a "this is correct" post it note attached
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Sep 15, 2022 17:50
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Hexel posted:I think most folks meant that they left Emonds Field too fast and should have chilled there for two episodes doing character building poo poo.
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Sep 16, 2022 16:48
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It’s like they knew they were never going to get the time to go through 14 books of material instead of realizing that a lot of the cut stuff should be in the later books anyways. Like the first five seasons could have closely run directly through the books and it would be engaging. The best parts of the books are the characters and we get piss all characters besides maybe Moiraine and Lan. The dragon mystery was dumb as poo poo.
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Sep 17, 2022 16:32
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https://twitter.com/ferrygooddogs/status/1571558362554466307?t=b-NfBY7b4y2_ngltdoiJbw&s=19 #lucaforhopper 
Comrade Blyatlov fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 18, 2022 |
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Sep 18, 2022 18:57
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