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Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





Brolander posted:

my fave Kramer moment is diediediediedieDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIE

i'm not gonna lie, for a split-second there i had forgotten which thread i clicked on and thought 'wow, seinfeld really got wild there'

also i've picked the series back up after a while of not reading since i normally did it at the gym while doing cardio and i've only recently been able to swing by another place to work out, and i'm in the middle of winter's heart. and it's...fine? it's fine. it's not really fast-paced by any stretch but it has some good moments so far. like the part where the three ladies bond rand as their warder and then birgitte nearly goes apeshit because elayne starts doing it with rand and she can sense it, so she agrees to go get piss-drunk on aiel booze to maybe keep from thinking about it

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silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



I mean to be fair, that's a great scene.

Winter's Heart is good, it's Crossroads of Twilight that people generally feel is the weakest, right afterwards.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

The best thing about Elayne is Birgitte

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





i've got crossroads of twilight looking at me from the shelf so i can't wait to dive into that again

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

it's actually not as bad as you remember, because you can smash through it and get to the next book instead of waiting 8 years

Eh! Frank
Mar 28, 2006

I gave up blow and adderall for you



Fallen Rib

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

it's actually not as bad as you remember, because you can smash through it and get to the next book instead of waiting 8 years

It still drags a ton. During my full-series re-read last year, each book took me about a week to finish on average except CoT, which took closer to two months. I felt like I was having to force myself to read it at times. I'm stubborn though and read the whole thing instead of skipping chunks and reading chapter summaries online.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

Did they cast Thom yet? Just get the Ehrmentraut dude to play him

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

Alexandre Willaume? Dude is barely 50, Thom has gotta be mid 60s

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Easier for a young man to dye his hair grey than an old man to do a backflip.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

Dont ruin it for me

Eh! Frank
Mar 28, 2006

I gave up blow and adderall for you



Fallen Rib

I haven't seen anything Alexandre Willaume is in, but his face is almost perfectly how I imagined Thom's, even if he may not be the "right age".

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

I just kinda skimmed over Elayne’s chapters in CoT cause literally nothing happened in them. I really like Talmanes by the way.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Invalid Validation posted:

I just kinda skimmed over Elayne’s chapters in CoT cause literally nothing happened in them. I really like Talmanes by the way.

That's because he's amazing.

COOL CORN
Jun 1, 2003

If we vanished tomorrow, no organism on this planet would miss us.
Nothing in nature needs us.




Buglord



yeah I could definitely see this guy schtupping the queen

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





False, that's only one mustache

Lord Awkward
Feb 16, 2012


Data Graham posted:

False, that's only one mustache



Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006


It’s been a theme for me on my re-read, but man the Aes Sedai suck. I’m at Lord of Chaos, Nynaeve and Elayne are still with Salidar. The Salidar Aes Sedai suuuuuuuck. Almost every one is dumb as a brick, easily manipulated and focused only on the acquisition of power.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!


I take comfort in the rebels’ ultimate triumph because, as lovely as they are, Elaida and the tower group is worse.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



I mean both sides were heavily influenced by black ajah so yeah they're all pretty bad at doing things.

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006


ConfusedUs posted:

I take comfort in the rebels’ ultimate triumph because, as lovely as they are, Elaida and the tower group is worse.

Yeah, the black sister in the prologue thinking Rand would be overawed because three (or was it six?) Aes Sedai were coming to meet him was pretty lol.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

Sometimes I wonder if maybe they should have left out stuff like healing gentling. It makes being gentled life altering instead of a minor inconvenience.

ChickenWing
Jul 22, 2010



Fun Shoe

Invalid Validation posted:

Sometimes I wonder if maybe they should have left out stuff like healing gentling. It makes being gentled life altering instead of a minor inconvenience.

I'd argue it's still a pretty major inconvenience (reduced capability with the power), and that whole plot thread was really well written in general - the conclusion felt earned rather than granted.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

Siuan was technically the only one to get reduced power. It agree it was earned but just imagine the impact it could have had later on if the ones Rand stilled couldn’t be healed. You could get some real powerful moments from it.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



ChickenWing posted:

I'd argue it's still a pretty major inconvenience (reduced capability with the power), and that whole plot thread was really well written in general - the conclusion felt earned rather than granted.

The reduction was, as I understand it, either because it was a woman healing women (the first healing didn't reduce at all), or because the flow needed to be slightly different and she used the same flow; later on, a man was able to heal a woman perfectly.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



But I agree, I thought it was important, well written, and honestly it legit brings tears to my eyes whenever I read that part.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


I'm conflicted on that point. On one hand I can see how it cheapens stilling (and burn-out, which presumably can be healed the same way), but on the other it was such a well written scene and so important for Nynaeve's arc that I can't really be mad about it.

I do think that the rate at which magic development accelerated, even granting the boosts from Rand learning from Asmodean and remembering stuff from Lews and the Wonder Girls pumping Moghedien, that things accelerated way too quickly. The Aes Sedai knowledge base had been stagnant or declining for millennia and then suddenly shoots up near Age of Legends levels in only two years? It seemed way to easy to learn new weaves. If it was so easy that you only had to show a channeler, even an enslaved Damane who isn't encouraged to think for herself and only acts like a pet, any given weave once or twice for her to learn it, how'd they lose so many weaves in the first place?

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007



There was no other way Logan fulfil mins thing

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





silvergoose posted:

The reduction was, as I understand it, either because it was a woman healing women (the first healing didn't reduce at all), or because the flow needed to be slightly different and she used the same flow; later on, a man was able to heal a woman perfectly.

iirc it's described as one hand healing the other hand, saidan healing saidar or vice-versa. having the same hand heal itself isn't as effective.

ChickenWing
Jul 22, 2010



Fun Shoe

jng2058 posted:

I'm conflicted on that point. On one hand I can see how it cheapens stilling (and burn-out, which presumably can be healed the same way), but on the other it was such a well written scene and so important for Nynaeve's arc that I can't really be mad about it.

I do think that the rate at which magic development accelerated, even granting the boosts from Rand learning from Asmodean and remembering stuff from Lews and the Wonder Girls pumping Moghedien, that things accelerated way too quickly. The Aes Sedai knowledge base had been stagnant or declining for millennia and then suddenly shoots up near Age of Legends levels in only two years? It seemed way to easy to learn new weaves. If it was so easy that you only had to show a channeler, even an enslaved Damane who isn't encouraged to think for herself and only acts like a pet, any given weave once or twice for her to learn it, how'd they lose so many weaves in the first place?

I'd look at it like the dark ages, writ large. You suddenly have a massive loss of knowledge, plus an ongoing crisis keeping people in conflict and from properly passing on what knowledge they do have. Knowledge keeps getting lost, and what little remains is mostly passed on through rote memorization. You have to rebuild all your theory again just to get to the point that you understand what you can already do, much less improve upon it.

Combine that with the entrenched philosophy of "if you learn something new, you keep it to yourself" meaning that new knowledge is effectively self-suppressed, plus the Black Ajah actively interfering in the whole operation, and it makes sense how they'd have lost so much important knowledge.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Johnny Joestar posted:

iirc it's described as one hand healing the other hand, saidan healing saidar or vice-versa. having the same hand heal itself isn't as effective.

Yeah that sounds right, I just couldn't remember if it was that or which element.

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat


Healing talk
This also has great benefit of foreshadowing why True Power is required for sealing the bore without taint leaking. Honestly the higher level metaphysics treating saidin/saidar and TruePower/Taint as phases of similar but different energy is one of the better bits. As the symmetry that a weave made of saidin might hold up better to saidar, or a weave made of saidar might hold up better to saidin, nicely mirrors the resolution to the taint issues where TP insulates the saidar/saidin weave from TDO’s taint when it is sealed, which in turn was further foreshadowed by the large pile of (presumably) TP that was present in aridhol could be used to neutralize the taint on saidin during the cleansing.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Related audiobook chat, spoilers for Lord of Chaos:

Occasionally, the narrators slip up what word they say.

Michael Kramer, narrating Rand, just after being bonded by Alanna: "In a fury, he seized saidar." I mean, just imagine if somehow bonding a man who could channel gave him access to saidar and that was how people found out.

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013



Anias posted:

Healing talk
This also has great benefit of foreshadowing why True Power is required for sealing the bore without taint leaking. Honestly the higher level metaphysics treating saidin/saidar and TruePower/Taint as phases of similar but different energy is one of the better bits. As the symmetry that a weave made of saidin might hold up better to saidar, or a weave made of saidar might hold up better to saidin, nicely mirrors the resolution to the taint issues where TP insulates the saidar/saidin weave from TDO’s taint when it is sealed, which in turn was further foreshadowed by the large pile of (presumably) TP that was present in aridhol could be used to neutralize the taint on saidin during the cleansing.

IIRC, the cleansing of saidin wasn't because of True Power neutralizing the taint or anything like that. Mashadar was formed out of the hatred and mistrust of the populace, but that hatred came about as an attempt to beat the Shadow by out-eviling the Shadow, and it was absolutely opposed to it. He cleansed saidin by dumping a shitload of it into Shadar Logoth. Mashadar started consuming the taint and all Rand had to do was keep the two of them connected until both the taint and Mashadar had burned themselves out.
The True Power never factored into it.


ChickenWing posted:

I'd look at it like the dark ages, writ large. You suddenly have a massive loss of knowledge, plus an ongoing crisis keeping people in conflict and from properly passing on what knowledge they do have. Knowledge keeps getting lost, and what little remains is mostly passed on through rote memorization. You have to rebuild all your theory again just to get to the point that you understand what you can already do, much less improve upon it.

Combine that with the entrenched philosophy of "if you learn something new, you keep it to yourself" meaning that new knowledge is effectively self-suppressed, plus the Black Ajah actively interfering in the whole operation, and it makes sense how they'd have lost so much important knowledge.

There's also the decline in the strength of their channelers over the years. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of weaves were lost just because the last people who knew them died before they could find students who were strong enough to handle them. Add in losses from battle in the Trolloc Wars and such and it's not surprising that a lot of things were lost.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Khizan posted:

IIRC, the cleansing of saidin wasn't because of True Power neutralizing the taint or anything like that. Mashadar was formed out of the hatred and mistrust of the populace, but that hatred came about as an attempt to beat the Shadow by out-eviling the Shadow, and it was absolutely opposed to it. He cleansed saidin by dumping a shitload of it into Shadar Logoth. Mashadar started consuming the taint and all Rand had to do was keep the two of them connected until both the taint and Mashadar had burned themselves out.
The True Power never factored into it.



There's also the decline in the strength of their channelers over the years. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of weaves were lost just because the last people who knew them died before they could find students who were strong enough to handle them. Add in losses from battle in the Trolloc Wars and such and it's not surprising that a lot of things were lost.

You also have Hawkwing and the resulting stigma against Aes Sedai that most of them even internalized. They shy away heavily from even teaching combat weaves specifically because they're so focused on proving they aren't the monsters from the propaganda. Then you have knowledge that was deliberately hidden, like Balefire. And then you add on that Aes Sedai are heavily incentivized to keep their personally developed weaves secret or at most to share them among their Ajah because of the vicious rivalries that have developed and tenuous balance of Tower politics.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

If someone bonded me without permission I’d probably kill them. They kinda just shrug it off after a few minutes.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Invalid Validation posted:

If someone bonded me without permission I’d probably kill them. They kinda just shrug it off after a few minutes.

Uhhhhhh

Couple things. First, that happened to one person (in the books), and it sent him into a blinding rage about it for at least a book or two.

Second, killing them is literally suicide.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

Oh no my friend it happens a lot. Like disturbingly a lot.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



In the books? I don't remember that. Oh uh okay sure the ashaman doing it, yes, right, and they literally couldn't because they were being compelled, more or less.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Oh also birg but that was kind of a special case.

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silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Who'm I missing?

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