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Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

I just got to where Androl gets it. Then when other people hear about it theyíre like, how dare you! But donít do anything about it.

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silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



Invalid Validation posted:

I just got to where Androl gets it. Then when other people hear about it they’re like, how dare you! But don’t do anything about it.

The super weird mutual bonding that neither of them quite realized what the gently caress was happening during thing?

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008






Yes it's where Pevara bonds Androl without his permission and he instinctively bonds her back, and she gets mad at him for doing it.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Zore posted:

And then you add on that Aes Sedai are heavily incentivized to keep their personally developed weaves secret or at most to share them among their Ajah because of the vicious rivalries that have developed and tenuous balance of Tower politics.

It's even commented on that some of the Aes Sedai seemed to learn the new weaves too quickly, and I think some seemed pissy about it.

No doubt some sisters' secret personal weaves just got shown about and they just went "ah yes this weave I have never seen before in my life, yes"

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006


Finished Lord of Chaos on the re-read today and holy hell, Taim was absolutely supposed to be Demandred, right? Did Jordan or Sanderson ever talk about that?

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get, the more I feel like laughing.

Fallen Rib

There's no official confirmation however IIRC it's pretty safe to assume that was the original plan but Jordan got spooked by readers figuring it out on late 90s message boards and went in a different direction.

FWIW the conclusion we get for those two characters is probably better overall, especially in Demandred's case.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

"So-called Aiel" is such a big tipoff.

It's also been interesting to pick up on all the references between Demandred and Shara, in the scenes with Graendal, given where he ends up having been. (AMoL spoilers.) Definitely stuff I didn't pay much attention to my first couple times through, before A Memory of Light was out.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Jordan did some weird poo poo sometimes when interacting with the fans.

Like everything about Asmodean's death and how it became an insanely pointless circular argument he kept fuelling for 20 years by saying it should be obvious who killed him but refusing to spell it out until I wanna say Gathering Storm's glossary which casually mentions it.

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006


Vavrek posted:

"So-called Aiel" is such a big tipoff.

It's also been interesting to pick up on all the references between Demandred and Shara, in the scenes with Graendal, given where he ends up having been. (AMoL spoilers.) Definitely stuff I didn't pay much attention to my first couple times through, before A Memory of Light was out.

I mean that and the constant ďkill him kill him kill himĒ from LTT that doesnít seem to come up for other male channelers. The last nonprophecy narrative from the LoC, ďHave I not done well, Great Lord?Ē makes a lot more sense of itís about the slaughter at Dumaiís Wells than if itís about, I dunno, killing a big monster offscreen?

Also, Verin is one of the best characters on my re-read. Sheís a little creepy and one of the most canny movers in the series. Very fun to see in action (even if she hasnít done that much yet).

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

If I remember what Sanderson said, it's that he and the team had no idea who killed Asmodean, but they found a fan letter RJ had kept with the note "This is correct" written on it. That was how they learned what happened to the man. So they decided to toss it into the appendix, to replicate the feeling they'd had of learning it completely out of context of the story.

Ungratek
Aug 2, 2005



I never thought it was hard to figure out. There were barely anyone who it even could have been.

The Neal!
Sep 3, 2004

HAY GUYZ! I want to be a director

Ungratek posted:

I never thought it was hard to figure out. There were barely anyone who it even could have been.

I dunno, seemed to me like it could have been literally any of the surviving forsaken?

Not that it really matters, they've all got the same goal so who cares which one of them killed him exactly.

And Demandred was ABSOLUTELY Taim at first but I kind of like how it all turned out.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Prairie Bus posted:

I mean that and the constant ďkill him kill him kill himĒ from LTT that doesnít seem to come up for other male channelers. The last nonprophecy narrative from the LoC, ďHave I not done well, Great Lord?Ē makes a lot more sense of itís about the slaughter at Dumaiís Wells than if itís about, I dunno, killing a big monster offscreen?

Also, Verin is one of the best characters on my re-read. Sheís a little creepy and one of the most canny movers in the series. Very fun to see in action (even if she hasnít done that much yet).

Yes, that (and the "so-called Aiel") is the main clue. We don't know anything that Demandred could have done in LoC that would lead to him boasting to the Dark One about his deeds, unless he was Taim in disguise.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

Putting an agent in that close to Rand seems pretty praiseworthy

Gnoman
Feb 11, 2014


Torrannor posted:

Yes, that (and the "so-called Aiel") is the main clue. We don't know anything that Demandred could have done in LoC that would lead to him boasting to the Dark One about his deeds, unless he was Taim in disguise.

Precisely how is "so-called Aiel" supposed to signify anything? By that point everyone knows that the Aiel have sided with the Dragon Reborn, and all of the Forsaken know that the Aiel were originally strict pacifists, following the same code as the Tinkers. "So called Aiel" would be an appropriate commend from Demandred if he'd crawled out of the Bore 10 minutes ago and given a quick briefing.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Gnoman posted:

Precisely how is "so-called Aiel" supposed to signify anything? By that point everyone knows that the Aiel have sided with the Dragon Reborn, and all of the Forsaken know that the Aiel were originally strict pacifists, following the same code as the Tinkers. "So called Aiel" would be an appropriate commend from Demandred if he'd crawled out of the Bore 10 minutes ago and given a quick briefing.

Yes exactly? At this point, only the Aiel clan chiefs, the wise ones, Rand, and the Forsaken truly have the knowledge that may make them call the Aiel "so called Aiel". The wider Aiel society is still digesting the snippets of the true story that Rand revealed, while nobody west from the Dragonwall knows about the distant history of the Aiel. Especially since the Aiel themselves are so very reluctant to discuss this among themselves, never mind outsiders. So how come Taim calls them "so called Aiel"? Perhaps Demandred has told him, but why would a Forsaken bother telling him something that's not at all important now? It would much better fit if Demandred in disguise just spoke carelessly.

Gnoman
Feb 11, 2014


Torrannor posted:

Yes exactly? At this point, only the Aiel clan chiefs, the wise ones, Rand, and the Forsaken truly have the knowledge that may make them call the Aiel "so called Aiel". The wider Aiel society is still digesting the snippets of the true story that Rand revealed, while nobody west from the Dragonwall knows about the distant history of the Aiel. Especially since the Aiel themselves are so very reluctant to discuss this among themselves, never mind outsiders. So how come Taim calls them "so called Aiel"? Perhaps Demandred has told him, but why would a Forsaken bother telling him something that's not at all important now? It would much better fit if Demandred in disguise just spoke carelessly.


I was remembering the line being spoken by Demandred in a conversation with Lanfear or Graendal. Hence the confusion.



I'm still not convinced that Taim was ever supposed to be Demandred (too obvious, and the hints work very well at pointing toward his real position.



After checking the circumstances of the line, it seems obvious that Taim was making a play on words - "Aiel" means "dedicated", so it works as a "so called dedicated" jab at their loyalty.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


Zore posted:

Jordan did some weird poo poo sometimes when interacting with the fans.

Like everything about Asmodean's death and how it became an insanely pointless circular argument he kept fuelling for 20 years by saying it should be obvious who killed him but refusing to spell it out until I wanna say Gathering Storm's glossary which casually mentions it.

It was mentioned in an indirect but fairly obvious way in the text of a gathering storm as well, a lot of people just missed it.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



Ungratek posted:

I never thought it was hard to figure out. There were barely anyone who it even could have been.

It's obvious if you assume there's nothing weird going on: Asmodean recognizes his killer, so it's probably one of the forsaken. Asmodean ought to have felt a man channeling or traveling, so it's probably a female forsaken. There is exactly one female forsaken who had any reason to be in the vicinity and who didn't just fall through a portal into another dimension and explode: Graendal.

The problem is, it could easily have been something non obvious; there were so many pieces on the board at that point that were perfectly capable of killing Asmodean, and who plausibly could have fit the other clues. It could have been Semhirage or Mesaana, it could have been Slayer, it could have been a gholam. it could have been something weird and off the wall, like Lanfear or Moraine returning unscathed from Aelfinn lands.

It's obvious if you're Robert Jordan, and you know where all those other characters are and what they're up to, but not to everyone else. It's a locked room mystery where a dozen characters have godlike powers and are invisible.

VVVVV EDIT: Or that. VVVVV

Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 10:45 on May 26, 2020

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000


Here's a quote from RJ's notes:

quote:

b) Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE MAZRIM TAIM. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND'S AMNESTY.

It's pretty cut and dry.

He also killed Asmodean, which is the reason Jordan refused to ever name the culprit. He just picked a fan theory and ran with that.

quote:

She does not know that Asmodean was a prisoner of Rand, nor, of course, that he was killed by Demandred.

mossyfisk fucked around with this message at 10:34 on May 26, 2020

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

I thought Graendal thinks to herself about removing certain objects from Sammael's palace after his death, so it stands to reason she would have done the same with Rahvin since they were all in the same Axis of Evil

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

It's kind of interesting to see how RJ planted all the information. You have to consider that during the period between TFoH's release and LoC's release, there were no good suspects for Asmodean's killer.

Balthamel and Aginor had not yet been reincarnated, nor had we been introduced to Mazrim Taim, Demandred, or Graendal. People legitimately thought Aviendha could've been a candidate! And Moiraine, and Lanfear! (I never thought either of those two could've counted, even with the 'finn wishes)

The "evidence" for Mazrim Taim (or Demandred, if you will) killing Asmodean, even while RJ flirted with the possibility in LoC, is purely that of textual proximity. That of Mazrim Taim actually BEING Demandred, RJ obviously laid some groundwork on in LoC, but did not end up going in that direction.

Post-LoC is where RJ committed. Most of the evidence that point to Graendal is in ACoS. RJ starts showing why Demandred could not possibly have carried off a long term disguise as Mazrim Taim, etc.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


It got even crazier later on. The last sentence of Asmodean's death scene is "death claimed him", which made people perk up when we learned of somebody named Moridin (=death)...

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



mossyfisk posted:

Here's a quote from RJ's notes:


It's pretty cut and dry.

He also killed Asmodean, which is the reason Jordan refused to ever name the culprit. He just picked a fan theory and ran with that.

I knew about the Taimandred thing, but not that he originally killed Asmodean, but in retrospect that makes much more sense than the outcome that we got: Graendal doing it, while plausible, doesn't really add anything to the larger narrative, while Taimandred killing Asmodean makes Asmodean's death another clue to the identity of Taimandred. Demandred killed Asmodean before arriving in his Mazram Taim guise because he worried that Asmodean could have recognized him even through the disguise(?*). Lews Therin did immedately recognize him through the disguise, but it's not like Demandred could have known that, since Rand doesn't even know that.

*It's not really clear if Demandred was initially supposed to be disguised with the power using an inverted weave as Mazrim Taim, since he apparently didn't look enough like him to fool Davram Bashere, but it's possible that he really did it but weaves of the power couldn't fake a beard so he ended up with a half-assed disguise.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Torrannor posted:

It got even crazier later on. The last sentence of Asmodean's death scene is "death claimed him", which made people perk up when we learned of somebody named Moridin (=death)...

What was even funnier was Demandred's first actual physical appearance in the series was basically him saying "I don't know what happened to Asmodean" to the very entity that you'd think he wouldn't lie to.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 26, 2020

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Old Kentucky Shark posted:

I knew about the Taimandred thing, but not that he originally killed Asmodean, but in retrospect that makes much more sense than the outcome that we got: Graendal doing it, while plausible, doesn't really add anything to the larger narrative, while Taimandred killing Asmodean makes Asmodean's death another clue to the identity of Taimandred. Demandred killed Asmodean before arriving in his Mazram Taim guise because he worried that Asmodean could have recognized him even through the disguise(?*). Lews Therin did immedately recognize him through the disguise, but it's not like Demandred could have known that, since Rand doesn't even know that.

*It's not really clear if Demandred was initially supposed to be disguised with the power using an inverted weave as Mazrim Taim, since he apparently didn't look enough like him to fool Davram Bashere, but it's possible that he really did it but weaves of the power couldn't fake a beard so he ended up with a half-assed disguise.


Wow, i never thought about the fact that Bashere doesn't recognize Taim when they first meet in LoC. But this is of course another significant clue.

Ika
Dec 30, 2004
Pure insanity



Old Kentucky Shark posted:

I knew about the Taimandred thing, but not that he originally killed Asmodean, but in retrospect that makes much more sense than the outcome that we got: Graendal doing it, while plausible, doesn't really add anything to the larger narrative, while Taimandred killing Asmodean makes Asmodean's death another clue to the identity of Taimandred. Demandred killed Asmodean before arriving in his Mazram Taim guise because he worried that Asmodean could have recognized him even through the disguise(?*). Lews Therin did immedately recognize him through the disguise, but it's not like Demandred could have known that, since Rand doesn't even know that.

*It's not really clear if Demandred was initially supposed to be disguised with the power using an inverted weave as Mazrim Taim, since he apparently didn't look enough like him to fool Davram Bashere, but it's possible that he really did it but weaves of the power couldn't fake a beard so he ended up with a half-assed disguise.


I was convinced about taimandred when I first read the books waaaay back as they were coming out, and the denials were so disappointing. So glad the notes ended up proving the opposite.

Also I never heard of that theory, him being the killer - will have to keep it in mind on my next reread.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Ika posted:

I was convinced about taimandred when I first read the books waaaay back as they were coming out, and the denials were so disappointing. So glad the notes ended up proving the opposite.

Also I never heard of that theory, him being the killer - will have to keep it in mind on my next reread.

The problem with the notes is that they were obviously written, at the latest, immediately after TFoH was published, but the murder mystery was left as a cliffhanger stinger in the epilogue and all the main suspects were only really introduced in the next book, by which time RJ had already decided against what he had put in the notes and was already working against the Taimandred thing as well.

The issue really is one of pattern over-matching on the part of the readership plus too much time on their hands. You can't really go by author notes or you really get super deep into the weeds on some poo poo--the example I like to bring up is JRR Tolkien's notes, which he left all over the place because he took years and decades to go back and forth to decide which backstory he preferred in the construction of the mythology of Middle Earth. I wouldn't even consider Christopher Tolkien's notes-salvaged novels authoritative, but some of the walkthroughs of Tolkien's thoughts are loving fascinating.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

I always thought Lewis recognizing Demandred as Taim was the reason why he went crazy around him and nobody else. It makes some sense.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Invalid Validation posted:

I always thought Lewis recognizing Demandred as Taim was the reason why he went crazy around him and nobody else. It makes some sense.

The reader is tasked to try to understand Lews Therin, an insane personality that is not actually real, through the unreliable POV of a character who is also not particularly sane.

Before we noted any kind of adverse mental reaction to Mazrim Taim, after all, Rand was trying to break the seal Taim handed over.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

To be fair he wasn't wrong about that

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

I Lews Therin ever wrong in Rands head? I donít remember any instances.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


Invalid Validation posted:

I Lews Therin ever wrong in Rands head? I donít remember any instances.

Couple of times he tries to get Rand to kill every channeler nearby, male or female. That probably wasn't the best plan.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



Invalid Validation posted:

I Lews Therin ever wrong in Rands head? I donít remember any instances.

It depends on what you mean by "wrong".

He often doesn't seem to understand where and when he is. He often thinks he's still in the Second Age and that Rand is a voice in his head (which, given that time is a Wheel, may be true). There's a few times where he mistakenly interprets someone from the present as being someone from the past -- pretty much always a woman Rand loves and Ilyena. There's multiple times where he tries to seize control of saidin away from Rand which causes problems at a critical moment, although at least once it also helps Rand. There's also at least one time when he grabs the power and tries to use it explicitly to kill himself and has to be talked out of it by Rand.

He's sometimes mistaken, but never factually incorrect or a liar.

Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 01:40 on May 27, 2020

Arrath
Apr 14, 2011


Old Kentucky Shark posted:

He often thinks he's still in the Third Age and that Rand is a voice in his head (which, given that time is a Wheel, may be true).

....



Too bad rand never had any crazy visions or dreams of being in the age long past, beyond going through columns and so on. That would be so dope.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers

When Lews Therin went mad he just really was trying to find Bela and look after his sheep

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS



I still think the crystal pillars, both backward and forward, are some of the best, most important, and stirring writing of the entire series.

Arrath
Apr 14, 2011


silvergoose posted:

I still think the crystal pillars, both backward and forward, are some of the best, most important, and stirring writing of the entire series.

These and the portal stones sequence were amazing bits of writing.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


silvergoose posted:

I still think the crystal pillars, both backward and forward, are some of the best, most important, and stirring writing of the entire series.

Those, and "I win again, Lews Therin." Actually the Aviendha one was especially good because I'd been looking forward to seeing her react to what Rand saw, but no, she'd had enough time to get used to it. The next one, though...that hit hard.

jng2058 fucked around with this message at 03:53 on May 27, 2020

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Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR STUPID SHIT JUST CAUSE YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY. YOU MAKE STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS ALL THE TIME THEN DOUBLE DOWN LIKE A PETULANT CHILD. GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU SO MUCH SOMETIMES.

It happened with all the portal ones. Even the accepted trials were really good.

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