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everything about randland is perfectly normal what do you mean
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May 15, 2021 01:47
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Levitate posted:pardon for jumping into this thread but re-reading the books again for the first time in awhile and it's really fuckin' weird to me that Jordan has this thing that women are powerful and competent and important in his world but at the same time the men/women dynamics and everything are so weirdly 50's conservative gender roles or whatever you want to call it. For the most part they aren't. The closest is in the Two Rivers, but even there it isn't a great fit. Just about the only area you see "traditional" gender roles play out is in clothing. Other than that, every culture group has an individual set of gender roles, none of which closely align with "50s conservative".
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May 15, 2021 01:58
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Gnoman posted:For the most part they aren't. The closest is in the Two Rivers, but even there it isn't a great fit. Just about the only area you see "traditional" gender roles play out is in clothing. Other than that, every culture group has an individual set of gender roles, none of which closely align with "50s conservative". Eh I think I chose my words on that poorly but I think there's an overarching interaction between women and men in the book that is very "women are like and men are like this and they interact this way" that is touched up on the surface between the different groups but still underlies things
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May 15, 2021 02:50
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Levitate posted:Eh I think I chose my words on that poorly but I think there's an overarching interaction between women and men in the book that is very "women are like and men are like this and they interact this way" that is touched up on the surface between the different groups but still underlies things Look at this a bit deeper. RJ spends a lot of time highlighting how sapient beings find patterns and draw erroneous conclusions.
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May 15, 2021 02:55
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Levitate posted:Eh I think I chose my words on that poorly but I think there's an overarching interaction between women and men in the book that is very "women are like and men are like this and they interact this way" that is touched up on the surface between the different groups but still underlies things Anias has the right of it. THe vast majority of the "Men are X" or "Women are X" comments come from a character who very soon does the same thing they are criticizing the opposite sex for.
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May 15, 2021 03:11
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"Men are so violent, I should beat some sense into them." - Nynaeve probably.
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May 15, 2021 03:31
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Colonel Cool posted:"Men are so violent, I should beat some sense into them." - Nynaeve probably. Nynaeve contradicts herself in the course of a single sentence sometimes. One of the times I remember she thinks it was a bad idea to tell Thom and Juilin what they were doing, and literally seconds later thinks she always thought they should have told them everything from the beginning
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May 15, 2021 03:57
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Gnoman posted:For the most part they aren't. The closest is in the Two Rivers, but even there it isn't a great fit. Just about the only area you see "traditional" gender roles play out is in clothing. Other than that, every culture group has an individual set of gender roles, none of which closely align with "50s conservative". On the other hand, RJ does make gender a nonfluid construct, assigned and identified at birth among channelers. The only time we see what could be approaching trans folks (at least as far as Source usage) it is two reborn Forsaken in opposite gendered bodies.
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May 15, 2021 04:08
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Synastren posted:On the other hand, RJ does make gender a nonfluid construct, assigned and identified at birth among channelers. The only time we see what could be approaching trans folks (at least as far as Source usage) it is two reborn Forsaken in opposite gendered bodies. Only one, not two. That's a legitimate criticism, and it is an artifact of Jordan writing in an era where trans folk were a great big joke if they were acknowledged to exist at all.
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May 15, 2021 04:31
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Gnoman posted:Only one, not two. That's a legitimate criticism, and it is an artifact of Jordan writing in an era where trans folk were a great big joke if they were acknowledged to exist at all. Yeah. Part of me wonders if he would have made a change to that (at least in an interview or something if not in the text) had he lived longer. He's pretty progressive for a southern fantasy writer of his generation. And I'm sure it's something neither Brandon nor Harriet want to make a comment about now either.
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May 15, 2021 05:51
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I think it's also that Jordan was operating in the context of second-wave feminism, which was a lot more essentialist about gender/sex/sexuality than modern feminism. So some of this is stuff that was progressive according to the understanding of the time, even though nowadays we see those blind spots and have moved past them.
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May 15, 2021 08:07
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I was thinking of that a couple days ago; how the male and female halves of the source are so codified in the lore and are such a fundamental piece of the world you've built. How would you even begin to introduce doubt into that structure without immediately shattering your world? I wound up convincing myself the True Power was actually the non-binary solution for the world but Randland just wasn't ready for it from a societal standpoint. I'm also ignoring that it seems to be sourced literally from the devil.
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May 15, 2021 08:27
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Pleads posted:I was thinking of that a couple days ago; how the male and female halves of the source are so codified in the lore and are such a fundamental piece of the world you've built. How would you even begin to introduce doubt into that structure without immediately shattering your world? The researchers in the age of legends believed that, and that it was a great thing.
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May 15, 2021 12:23
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I've rread these books multiple times and you cant argue that Jordan doesnt rely on stock women with roller pin type stereotypes to pad some of his comedic scenes.
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May 15, 2021 12:29
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Gnoman posted:Only one, not two. That's a legitimate criticism, and it is an artifact of Jordan writing in an era where trans folk were a great big joke if they were acknowledged to exist at all. Shageletic posted:I've rread these books multiple times and you cant argue that Jordan doesnt rely on stock women with roller pin type stereotypes to pad some of his comedic scenes.
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May 15, 2021 14:41
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th3t00t posted:I don't see why it's a criticism. 1 Trans character is still infinitely more Trans characters than any of the successful IPs that have made it to TV or Movie like MCU, LOTR, GoT, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. but it's not 1 trans character it's "1 character made trans as punishment by the Devil," and it's not exactly used to explore gender essentialism or anything
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May 15, 2021 14:49
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yeah, it's not. good. i would have rather it not be a thing. then again that also sums up a few other things in the series.
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May 15, 2021 14:56
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Today I learned that Aviendha lost some toe in the Last Battle. How did I not catch that pun?!
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May 15, 2021 15:02
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DarkHorse posted:Today I learned that Aviendha lost some toe in the Last Battle. Min even foreshadows it so maybe she saw it in a vision. Well, makes the toes toh joke. silvergoose fucked around with this message at 15:11 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 15:05
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th3t00t posted:I don't see why it's a criticism. 1 Trans character is still infinitely more Trans characters than any of the successful IPs that have made it to TV or Movie like MCU, LOTR, GoT, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc.
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May 15, 2021 16:17
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Just cut it entirely. It's a dead plotline that can simply not exist, and you lose nothing from the story. It does show that TDO can bring people back in new bodies at whim if they haven't been balefired, but you don't really need more examples of that past Ishamael and Lanfear, both of whom are vastly more integral to the plot. Aran'gar's total plot contribution amounts to: "give egwene headaches, free Moghedien, and get chumped by Graendal". The first part is irrelevant/doesn't need to exist, the second part can be done by Delanna or Shaidar Haran, and the third part is also kinda irrelevant. It's part of Moridin's reasoning for executing Graendal, but he doesn't exactly need more reason there. There is a world where a team of new writers could continue WoT in to the 4th age and explore more about the workings of the pattern, how fallible or not it is, and produce a good plotline about a misplaced soul that ended up in the wrong body (and don't get me wrong I'd fuckin KILL for more in the WoT universe), but this isn't that story and trying to make that work in this established universe would end up a gigantic mess that no one would be happy with. Odds are far better that we'd get a Game of Thrones S8 vs anything actually competently told.
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May 15, 2021 16:48
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Gwaihir posted:Just cut it entirely. It's a dead plotline that can simply not exist, and you lose nothing from the story. It does show that TDO can bring people back in new bodies at whim if they haven't been balefired, but you don't really need more examples of that past Ishamael and Lanfear, both of whom are vastly more integral to the plot. Aran'gar's total plot contribution amounts to: "give egwene headaches, free Moghedien, and get chumped by Graendal". The first part is irrelevant/doesn't need to exist, the second part can be done by Delanna or Shaidar Haran, and the third part is also kinda irrelevant. It's part of Moridin's reasoning for executing Graendal, but he doesn't exactly need more reason there.  as you say, you could try to do a plotline with a good trans channeler right, but it would require actively changing canon and there is really no reason to think the writers would handle it well. best to just remove the bad poo poo
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May 15, 2021 16:55
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They don't even need it to be someone channeling saidin because they can just say they inverted their weaves
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May 15, 2021 22:49
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like i get that some people will flip their poo poo if anything at all is touched in the source material instead of just translating it 1:1 for the show, but i have pretty much always been an ardent believer that there are some things that just suck and contribute nothing positive. and given that this is a goofy fantasy tv show we're talking about and not like historical event documentation, well, i won't really shed a tear if it gets removed. that said none of us have any idea of what all they're going to inevitably change for the show and for all we know some of this poo poo will just be removed due to being irrelevant enough without even considering that it sucks.
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May 15, 2021 23:03
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I thought we already knew they were gonna condense some forsaken and aes sedai and such. Whatever. As long as it's enjoyable and hits some of the beats that make the series enjoyable to me I'll be happy?
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May 15, 2021 23:06
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yeah i think there was some interview linked a while ago where one of the big showrunners pretty much just says that inevitably some condensing will have to happen. it'll be interesting to see how that manifests and if it makes things weirdly busy or not.
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May 15, 2021 23:09
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Even the most ardent superfan has got to concede that like, the book 7-11 range has MEGA room for a ton of plot line consolidation and trimming.
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May 15, 2021 23:17
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Just waste Balthamel in the first season and don't even bring him back as anyone since he was really inconsequential in the overall plot. The only real standout moment I can recall is freeing Moghedien from the a'dam and getting blasted by Rand when he balefires the fortress in Knife of Dreams.
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May 15, 2021 23:18
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Given how few episodes a season there are, the source material is going to be more condensed than a black hole. Anyone that's expecting anything but the broadest strokes of the story to be included are just setting themselves up for disappointment, imo
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May 15, 2021 23:19
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CainsDescendant posted:Given how few episodes a season there are, the source material is going to be more condensed than a black hole. Anyone that's expecting anything but the broadest strokes of the story to be included are just setting themselves up for disappointment, imo Literally every single episode can end with mat kicking gawyn and galad's rear end with a quarterstaff and it will be must watch tv.
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May 15, 2021 23:23
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Yeah. I mean, for sure, the books are hugely descriptive and a ton of that raw wordcount gets pared down, along with character's internal thoughts, but even still. I'm expecting at least one or two major book plotlines to just get 100% zapped. (Please let it be Perrin's dumb + bad stuff chasing faile).
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May 15, 2021 23:27
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Anias posted:Literally every single episode can end with mat kicking gawyn and galad's rear end with a quarterstaff and it will be must watch tv. 
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May 15, 2021 23:32
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Gwaihir posted:Even the most ardent superfan has got to concede that like, the book 7-11 range has MEGA room for a ton of plot line consolidation and trimming. Look if we don't get at least one full episode that's just Elayne taking a bath, they just aren't being faithful to the source material
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May 15, 2021 23:33
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hygiene is very important
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May 15, 2021 23:41
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Don’t worry I’d be pleasantly surprised if we even get to the chasing Faile for the next forever arc.
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May 15, 2021 23:41
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Is the reason the Aran’gar thing is bad because of the implication that it’s a punishment from the Dark One? Couldn’t they just frame it as a gift for their servitude like something Aran’gar specifically asked for somehow?
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May 16, 2021 01:29
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latinotwink1997 posted:Is the reason the Aran’gar thing is bad because of the implication that it’s a punishment from the Dark One? Couldn’t they just frame it as a gift for their servitude like something Aran’gar specifically asked for somehow? That doesn't strike me as a very "Dark One" thing to do. Giving gifts that people ask nicely for, and stuff.
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May 16, 2021 01:31
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How are u posted:That doesn't strike me as a very "Dark One" thing to do. Giving gifts that people ask nicely for, and stuff. What if there never was a Balthamel and instead it’s another female Forsaken that gets owned at the Eye and brought back but instead can channel Saidin? The DO did it on purpose so they increase chaos. Or are people just gonna see this as “trans are evil” and there’s really no way around it?
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May 16, 2021 02:02
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Probably not without establishing that the different forces are not tied to gender.
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May 16, 2021 02:08
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Ah well, I tried. I liked the concept of Aran’gar as another errant force like Slayer that no one really knows about, but as people have mentioned not inherently necessary for the story.
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May 16, 2021 02:20
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