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I’ll give the Hand a pass since they were fanatical cult followers who thought Mat was a lucky Jesus for saving their lives. But I guess there is historical precedence for people being sent into the meat grinder over and over and the whole army not just disbanding.
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May 4, 2020 20:38
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Well also it’s Tarmon Gaidon, if you don’t win and you somehow survived you would wish you were dead.
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May 4, 2020 21:14
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Anias posted:That it’s a close run race between rand and mat for most directed slaying is on the face of it completely insane given mat and the band are not an order of ninja wizards, and yet. Except for the Last Battle itself, which is a "you're better off dying in victory than living in defeat" situation, battlefield channeling is relatively rare except among the Seanchan - and troops fighting them do break unusually easily than in a normal fight. It is even rarer for most of these troops to be fighting against the One Power, given the Three Oaths - when they do see battle magic being done, it is the Green helping them take on Trollocs. So the only times that there's an opportunity for the One Power to cause a panic is when the Dragon's taking on a Forsaken, or at the "Well, world's falling apart anyway, bring it on!" stage.
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May 4, 2020 21:21
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I just finished The Gathering Storm for the first time. Regarding differences between Jordan and Sanderson, it was pretty clear in the writing style differences when I went from KoD to TGS. It was frankly a little jarring in the first 100 pages or so but I did get accustomed to it. I have only read the first three Mistborn from Sanderson, but I was very happy with his style in TGS as it felt and read way way better compared to Mistborn. Regarding the book, some thoughts on what happened in TGS as a first time reader: Rand’s arc felt a little weird to me. I can see the point of it after having finished the book. I was pretty tense reading when Semirhage collars Rand with male a’dam and begins to choke Min. When he embraces the True Source and shatters the a’dam and zaps her and the Aes Sendai with balefire I was like  . Also now having read the prologue of ToM I like the trick of Graendel telling the others to use Compulsion and them dying to balefire.Egwene’s arc was incredible I thought. Really enjoyed her defiance toward Elaida. Although Elaida being taken by Seanchan seemed a little to easy to resolve everything and let Egwene be raised to Amrylin. Looking forward to ToM. Probably going to end up finishing the series in exactly one year of starting it so it’s been a nice journey but I’m gonna need to read some non-SF/F after this.
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May 4, 2020 21:42
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Everyone's missing the obvious difference, which is that Sanderson does not devote nearly enough time to writing about baths.
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May 4, 2020 22:02
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Gnoman posted:Except for the Last Battle itself, which is a "you're better off dying in victory than living in defeat" situation, battlefield channeling is relatively rare except among the Seanchan - and troops fighting them do break unusually easily than in a normal fight. It is even rarer for most of these troops to be fighting against the One Power, given the Three Oaths - when they do see battle magic being done, it is the Green helping them take on Trollocs. The backstory to the series is set up in such a way that, that's like ... if pretty much everyone understood to some extent that the Bible's stories were real, and the order of the stories went from like, Garden of Eden, straight into the Flood and the worst bits of Revelations, and something that's actually worse than all of that lay between where you were and either temporary salvation or eternal damnation. Like yeah, once the Dragon Reborn was sighted fighting Baal'zamon, it's like, welp, where do you even go from there. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 01:07 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 01:03
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Actually now that you mention it I haven’t noticed Sanderson fixate on braids, dresses, and breasts as much.
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May 5, 2020 01:10
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I thought the transition to Sanderson was extremely jarring and very obvious. There's what was said about him just having dialogue go back and forth without renaming the speaker. What's far more jarring was while Jordan used dramatic irony all the freaking time, Sanderson just kinda smashed through it. You could say this needed to happen to end the books, but one of the reoccurring themes in the entire series is that if everyone just sat down and were honest about what they intend to do and what they're feeling, then all of their problems would pretty much go away.
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May 5, 2020 03:15
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Huh. That applies doubly to the Forsaken, too. They would have won by about the start of The Great Hunt if they'd done that.
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May 5, 2020 03:18
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Huh. That applies doubly to the Forsaken, too. They would have won by about the start of The Great Hunt if they'd done that. True, but that's also a characteristic of them. They fight against each other. In The Guide, they made it really clear the Shadow had the more powerful forces in the War of Power, but they spent their efforts attacking each other instead of collaborating. The Dark One even went the extra mile to reward treachery, as long as it furthered the Shadow.
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May 5, 2020 04:12
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Torrannor posted:Well, there's that one Asha'man who punches far above his weight because he's very good at one specific thing. Speaking of noticable Sanderson/Jordan differences...
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May 5, 2020 07:51
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Sanderson did fanwanky poo poo like insert people from the wheel of time community into the narrative as cameos. I think there was even a contest to have a character named after the winner. Normally good Authors keep themselves at something of an arms length from fan communities; at least as far as the creative process goes but Sanderson was a big wheel of time fan before he got the job and I’m not sure that was a good thing.
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May 5, 2020 08:46
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The Lord Bude posted:Sanderson did fanwanky poo poo like insert people from the wheel of time community into the narrative as cameos. I think there was even a contest to have a character named after the winner. I'm gonna counter this by saying I had no idea it was happening and I didn't notice it in the books, so it can't have been that egregious. And while I get the complaint about Androl Mega Gateway Man, I liked that he was shown to be a natural leader despite his weakness in the Power. It made a nice counterpoint to the White Tower foolishly assigning importance solely on strength in the Power.
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May 5, 2020 11:14
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I'm gonna counter this by saying I had no idea it was happening and I didn't notice it in the books, so it can't have been that egregious. And we've seen with the Aiel earlier that giving people leadership positions based on their strength in the One Power is dumb. Basically every single Aes Sedai, even Cadsuane, is impressed/awed by Sorilea. Also, as was pointed out in the thread earlier, RJ introduced the Kinwoman who was unusually good at making shields long before Sanderson got the reins, so I don't know what's so bad about Androl.
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May 5, 2020 13:05
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My wife is onto the last book and she's noticed a difference as well, she finds his descriptions less interesting. I think his biggest weakness is describing fights. He can't. He describes DnD combat - this is also how I felt when reading the first chapter to one of his books before putting it back on the shelf. Jordan was fantastic at describing both duels and battles, probably because he had first hand experience. More than getting the feeling of being in a fight right, he seemed to understand what was important to describe for each fight - the mental state of the fighter, the impact on the battlefield. It doesn't matter what the Boar Rushes Downhill is, it conveys what's important for me to know. One of the better uses of this is Rand vs Turak in the Great Hunt. Without describing where the blades go it's clear to me at every point what Rand is doing, who is in the ascendancy and what it means to Rand. I can't imagine that scene being interesting written by Sanderson.
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May 5, 2020 13:12
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Torrannor posted:Also, as was pointed out in the thread earlier, RJ introduced the Kinwoman who was unusually good at making shields long before Sanderson got the reins, so I don't know what's so bad about Androl. It wasn’t the talent that was annoying it was the way that Sanderson made everything he did seem like an exploit by a rules lawyer who played too much Portal. Like...you can do gateways from anywhere eh? Here’s one from the center of the earth and it’s sideways so all the lava pours on you!!! maybe infinite vertical gateways to get you to terminal velocity and then squish!
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May 5, 2020 14:15
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I mean the age of legends did explore space a bit if one of the chosens rantings were accurate.
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May 5, 2020 15:41
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I guess I didn't really mind a bit of Sandersons penchant for defining magic systems more precisely and then assuming people would try to min max poo poo. It's not like it was the entire trilogy or anything, just a few set pieces and Androl.
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May 5, 2020 15:42
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with all the crazy poo poo that people are implied to have done with the power it seems reasonable enough that someone here or there is going to figure out a weird trick to do with it kinda like nynaeve healing someone being cut off from the power by using something most had just assumed wouldn't work due to inherent prejudices re: certain weaves and healing, a thing which had been previously thought impossible
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May 5, 2020 17:30
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New age Aes Sedai aren’t very creative. The forsaken even laugh at them for using a rod that was meant for criminals.
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May 5, 2020 17:34
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Invalid Validation posted:New age Aes Sedai aren’t very creative. The forsaken even laugh at them for using a rod that was meant for criminals. and then on the flipside they end up doing poo poo that baffles the forsaken, because the latter are so stuck in their ways they don't ever look for new ways to accomplish things
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May 5, 2020 17:37
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Johnny Joestar posted:and then on the flipside they end up doing poo poo that baffles the forsaken, because the latter are so stuck in their ways they don't ever look for new ways to accomplish things Still some of my favourite moments
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May 5, 2020 17:47
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Invalid Validation posted:New age Aes Sedai aren’t very creative. The forsaken even laugh at them for using a rod that was meant for criminals. That's not a good example to use, though.
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May 5, 2020 19:26
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Johnny Joestar posted:and then on the flipside they end up doing poo poo that baffles the forsaken, because the latter are so stuck in their ways they don't ever look for new ways to accomplish things Path of Daggers had one of my favorites, where Aviendha unravels the gateway and Moridin is just like  how do these savages keep doing these things
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May 5, 2020 19:31
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Ok fine how bout them never using different types of elements to heal? That seems so basic that you would have purposefully be incurious.
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May 5, 2020 19:32
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I care much less about Androl's gate shenanigans, Portal-ly as they may have been, than that he read as a bad fanfic insert character. Suddenly appearing in the story, equal POV billing to main characters, underestimated by the mean kids at school and yet also popular doesn't think he's cool but is also super self confident, special snowflake ability, OTHER special snowflake ability that mind bonds hin to his romantic interest, so he can read her mind while she thinks about how cool he is, saves main characters with his snowflake, big implied mysterious backstory. Like, books were long enough already. They didn't need  filler
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May 5, 2020 19:39
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Invalid Validation posted:Ok fine how bout them never using different types of elements to heal? That seems so basic that you would have purposefully be incurious. Nynaeve mentions at one point that some other yellows might've already known how, because they learned it too fast, they just maybe had not wanted to share. I think the general take on the Tower over time is that it was internally highly divided and like a fifth of it was Black Ajah. People there didn't share.
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May 5, 2020 19:50
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Given that the Aes Sedai are the only ones to still have Healing in the first place, there was probably a point where the only person who knew how to do it could only do the "spirit-only" version for any of a dozen supportable reasons, and that's the version that got passed on. Once something gets institutionalized as the Correct Way to do things, changing it is hard. Especially in a hierarchical order that has a policy of discouraging experimentation due to the inherent danger.
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May 5, 2020 19:55
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they're just super myopic in general and used to doing things in specific ways that they would pass down forever from person to person, which is kind of a prevailing theme for them it was basically straight up said as like 'wait but fire isn't used for healing, why did you think of using that???' which is pretty fitting for people who are so self-assured that they view any sort of outside take on something as primitive which is funny when you consider the windfinders who are weaving cables of air that are more grandiose than anyone in the tower would even think of doing
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May 5, 2020 19:58
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Plus per Moiraine's comments and thoughts almost every Aes Sedai has some unique weave, usually a way to spy or minorly compel people, that was their first weave they keep secret. And most of those are never passed on or entered into the broader curriculum of the White Tower.
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May 5, 2020 20:06
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It's also worth noting that they force all Aes Sedai to learn 100 needlessly complicated weaves, rather than anything that might actually be of use
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May 5, 2020 20:15
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I mean, they could say 'do something of worth to the Tower' and have them judged by a panel of their peers or something, encouraging people to create something new, or some sort of project, or loving anything at all other than a dumb fixed test
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May 5, 2020 20:19
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Johnny Joestar posted:which is funny when you consider the windfinders who are weaving cables of air that are more grandiose than anyone in the tower would even think of doing To be fair, the Forsaken are as surprised by that as the Tower. They're like, it'd take a circle of hundreds to take the weather back from the Dark O - oh for gently caress's sake, again?!
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May 5, 2020 20:46
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I mean, they could say 'do something of worth to the Tower' and have them judged by a panel of their peers or something, encouraging people to create something new, or some sort of project, or loving anything at all other than a dumb fixed test To be fair, it looks like you get to do that after, since you will spend approximately 95% of your lengthened life span on whatever you consider your life's work. Anyway, Accepted who are headed to their shawl test get to spend tons of time with each Ajah and even more with their preferred Ajah, and from what I remember it's not supposed to be all serving tea and bowing and scraping. Call them, say, postgrad research assistants.
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May 5, 2020 23:08
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In theory, sure, but you'll forgive me if I don't have a lot of faith in the way the White Tower does things
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May 5, 2020 23:35
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There's a possibility that the Hundred Weaves are about learning exquisite control over the five strands of power. They're specifically mentioned to be absurdly complex, and there's a mention of a "once you learn one way of doing something, you can only do it that way" system with rare exceptions. So it makes some sense to have your trainees learn something useless but very difficult, instead of locking their useful applications into a overly difficult mode.
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May 5, 2020 23:54
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They've also been found to be "fail-safe" in that if you mess up nothing bad happens But yeah them being timid with the power definitely hurts them in the long run
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May 6, 2020 16:16
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I mean a lot of it is in reaction to things like Artur Hawkwing's siege of Tar Valon and the latent or overt prejudice the Aes Sedai have faced since the Trolloc Wars. In many ways the Tower itself has internalized a lot of anti-Aes Sedai propaganda which is why the training methods they employ are almost exclusively about producing women who act the way they want them to instead of anything to do with the power (besides handling it safely). All of it eventually boils down to some of Ishamael's machinations where every time he manages to get free he dedicates himself largely to loving with the Tower and undermining it. This in turn feeds into dissatisfaction which helps the Black Ajah grow, which further helps cripple the Tower etc. Zore fucked around with this message at 16:35 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 16:30
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Zore posted:I mean a lot of it is in reaction to things like Artur Hawkwing's siege of Tar Valon and the latent or overt prejudice the Aes Sedai have faced since the Trolloc Wars. In many ways the Tower itself has internalized a lot of anti-Aes Sedai propaganda which is why the training methods they employ are almost exclusively about producing women who act the way they want them to instead of anything to do with the power (besides handling it safely). Great points. Internalized self-hate and self-limitation is a recurring theme in the series. Perrin and Rand both struggle with it. Since the Trolloc Wars the Aes Sedai have used a tool for criminals to limit themselves. The taint on saidin is that process literalized.
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May 6, 2020 17:17
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there's def a few convos here and there about how they do certain things and the reason being because they don't want to freak out people more than they already are. also a big reason why egwene and co. using the blasty poo poo they learned is highly frowned upon since it goes wildly against the three oaths in probably the biggest way it actually matters
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May 6, 2020 17:21
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