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Invalid Validation posted:I’m going almost done with ToM now and while I like Perrin it’s taken what like 7 books for him to do something? Jesus Christ it feels like an eternity of just sitting around doing nothing. I swear you could make the whole series in 7 books or so if they cut all the boring stuff out. I know, real hot take here. I just finished a TSR reread and he gets a great ending in that book. Saves the Two Rivers, gets declared Lord despite his protests, rides off to bang his wife to raucous cheers and applause
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May 16, 2020 03:27
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Invalid Validation posted:I’m going almost done with ToM now and while I like Perrin it’s taken what like 7 books for him to do something? Jesus Christ it feels like an eternity of just sitting around doing nothing. I swear you could make the whole series in 7 books or so if they cut all the boring stuff out. I know, real hot take here. Cut out every inn where the innkeeper is described as “bustling” and you could get it down to six
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May 16, 2020 03:33
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Data Graham posted:Cut out every inn where the innkeeper is described as “bustling” and you could get it down to six I laugh every time I read it thinking of some new character playing with overly ridiculous skirts, like the pattern refuses to let them stay in an inn without a woman needing help keeping her skirt up. (I know the intended meaning, but just imagining it as fussing with clothes fits so well with the flavor of rj’s writing.)
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May 16, 2020 03:40
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Okay look the one that makes Siuan show certain things was amazing.
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May 16, 2020 04:16
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Having watched Gone Girl a second time, Pike is gonna be incredible. She does that cold-blooded stare so well, and is fantastic at putting a hint of a threat behind otherwise benign words
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May 16, 2020 06:15
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So balefire. It's been a long while since I did a thorough reread of the later books, but I remember a theory at one point suggesting that the bubbles of evil and the weird town where people couldn't die weren't actually the Dark One's touch but were the result of balefire. Was there anything to that theory or did balefire have some other affect in the books that I can't remember?
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May 16, 2020 08:20
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No, those were just the Dark One's touch causing the fabric of the world to warp in strange ways. The other effect of balefire is that it it unweaves threads from the pattern, and the pattern can only be woven and unwoven so many times, so if you use balefire too much reality starts to literally come apart at the seams. which is why in the Last battle when balefiire gets tossed around like candy at Halloween, there are literal cracks in the ground leading to an unending black void.
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May 16, 2020 13:10
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If you’re reading on kindle you can see the sentences people highlight the most and it’s always some cheesy rear end line you would hear in a self help seminar.
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May 16, 2020 14:18
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Invalid Validation posted:If you’re reading on kindle you can see the sentences people highlight the most and it’s always some cheesy rear end line you would hear in a self help seminar. That's basically all Kindle books. Though, to be fair, that's how sentiments get to be trite.
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May 16, 2020 18:14
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I have to find out where they moved that drat setting every time the app updates or I replace my reading device, so I can turn it off again. So distracting!
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May 16, 2020 18:29
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Atlas Hugged posted:So balefire. It's been a long while since I did a thorough reread of the later books, but I remember a theory at one point suggesting that the bubbles of evil and the weird town where people couldn't die weren't actually the Dark One's touch but were the result of balefire. Was there anything to that theory or did balefire have some other affect in the books that I can't remember? it's also implied that during Rand's crazy reality bending fight with the dark one he sets a few off too
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May 16, 2020 19:43
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Atlas Hugged posted:So balefire. One thing about balefire which I learned from author comments, since there was a common fan interpretation (which I held) that made it seem more of a problem than he intended it to be: The Dark One cannot resurrect someone who has been killed by balefire. One interpretation of this, along with the fear that everyone displays about using it, threat to the pattern, etc., is that threads touched by balefire have been straight-up eliminated. Those killed by balefire are never reborn and the pattern is forever lessened. This is not what RJ intended, and his explanation of it was that the Dark One, when grasping someone to force their reincarnation, takes hold in something like the instant after death. But since balefire kills you ten minutes ago, you're already dead, gone, and past the Dark One's grasp once you're hit with it. So what I'm saying is, here's yet another advantage of using balefire.
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May 16, 2020 21:37
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I mean, does Rand free his mom, or whatever the gently caress happened at the end of the first book, with the stuff? I forget/couldn't tell.
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May 16, 2020 22:38
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Yeah it's obvious that there's a certain "conservation of souls" logic going on, like a Law of Soulsmodynamics. If souls are the threads that are woven into these patterns in the tapestry and each soul is a single thread, it basically has to be the case that the spools can neither be created nor destroyed. e: like, when we were told to understand that all the wolf souls were being destroyed by Slayer, but instead they were only being sent back further to some kind of wolfhalla to come back with the Heroes silvergoose posted:I mean, does Rand free his mom, or whatever the gently caress happened at the end of the first book, with the stuff? I forget/couldn't tell. It's probably only dreaming, tbqh. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 22:41 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 22:38
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Yeah it's obvious that there's a certain "conservation of souls" logic going on, like a Law of Soulsmodynamics. If souls are the threads that are woven into these patterns in the tapestry and each soul is a single thread, it basically has to be the case that the spools can neither be created nor destroyed. That conservation of souls reminds me of the lovely author Piers Anthony's incarnations of immortality series, the third one about the fates.
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May 16, 2020 22:41
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Your edit though, no, those wolves are summoned directly from the world of dreams, so explicitly the ones he didn't get
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May 16, 2020 22:42
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Uh I thought the dream was Valhalla. Killed from the dream is more permanent then balefjre apparently. The summoning i don't recall was explicitly hopper or otherwise known souls
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May 16, 2020 22:46
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It's a bit muddied though, since Birgitte is dragged from the dream and killed irl, then comes back as a hero. The heroes make mention that if they get badly hosed up they have to go rest, so maybe it's that?
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May 16, 2020 22:48
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I always thought she was sorta a gotcha. Im a hero but moral so the latter rules. The loss of memories supports.
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May 16, 2020 22:54
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I just want to express strong appreciation for 'wolfhalla'. That is all.
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May 17, 2020 02:24
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Vavrek posted:I just want to express strong appreciation for 'wolfhalla'. That is all. Still laughing about it hours later ngl
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May 17, 2020 03:40
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Ok thanks for the clarification. I had forgotten that little detail about the Last Battle.
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May 17, 2020 09:26
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Ok got to the Thom and Moiraine relationship reveal and let me just say: What the gently caress ever Jordan/Sanderson.
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May 17, 2020 14:00
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Invalid Validation posted:Ok got to the Thom and Moiraine relationship reveal and let me just say: What the gently caress ever Jordan/Sanderson. Wait what's wrong with it, and what was surprising about it? Unless you're talking the very strong hints in the first few books. No, you said Sanderson...
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May 17, 2020 14:47
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Invalid Validation posted:Ok got to the Thom and Moiraine relationship reveal and let me just say: What the gently caress ever Jordan/Sanderson. It's actually nicely foreshadowed back in The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven. fake edit: Uh, note for those reading the series for the first time. While I'm quoting from books 4 and 5, these are effectively spoilers for a surprise at the end of Towers of Midnight, book 13. (I think?) In TSR: “Have you ever been in love, Moiraine?” What a startling question. Elayne could not imagine the Aes Sedai in love. Moiraine was Blue Ajah, and it was said Blue sisters gave all their passions to causes. The slender woman was not at all taken aback. For a long moment she looked levelly at the pair of them, each with an arm around the other. Finally she said, “I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband.” Egwene gaped in surprise. “Who?” Elayne gasped. The Aes Sedai appeared regretful of having spoken. “Perhaps I only meant we share an ignorance. Do not read too much into a few words.” She looked at Nynaeve consideringly. “Should I ever choose a man—should, I say—it will not be Lan. That much I will say.” This one is kind of dubious but the Kuleshov effect made me think it was involved when listening to the book: Thom seemed to vanish by sleight of hand; Mat had no idea what occupied the gleeman, but he was seldom to be found, day or night. Moiraine, Moiraine to Thom, getting him to go with Elayne and Nynaeve: "And I will see you again. You will survive Tarabon." Why exactly does she know this so well that she can speak it as plain truth? What did Moiraine ask the aelfinn? Then, in The Fires of Heaven, after bodychecking Lanfear in what remains my favorite example of dealing with a Forsaken, who is her second letter for? Thom. I think it's even called out by her at the time of the proper reveal. Sometimes things develop behind the scenes and your focus wasn't on them, and so they come as a surprise even if they were long in the coming.
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May 17, 2020 14:52
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Those are such small hints they might as well be the outrigger in Lost. Even Mat is our surrogate and is like what the gently caress?
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May 17, 2020 14:57
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:Uh I thought the dream was Valhalla. Killed from the dream is more permanent then balefjre apparently. The summoning i don't recall was explicitly hopper or otherwise known souls Yeah, I had assumed that killed in the Dream was final death, permanently, which is what *really* pissed me off, motherfucker killed Hopper twice, what the gently caress What's the argument that Hopper isn't permanently dead i need this
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May 17, 2020 14:58
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Invalid Validation posted:Ok got to the Thom and Moiraine relationship reveal and let me just say: What the gently caress ever Jordan/Sanderson. Hard same. Never made any sense to me. Completely falls flat.
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May 17, 2020 15:02
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silvergoose posted:Wait what's wrong with it, and what was surprising about it? Unless you're talking the very strong hints in the first few books. No, you said Sanderson... It feels extremely forced even if it is a nice  moment. I guess we're supposed to see it as really romantic that Thom gets over his hatred of Aes Sedai and Moiraine connects to another human being without manipulation or detachment but there's the barest minimum of set up for it.
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May 17, 2020 15:44
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I caught it. Seemed fine to me.
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May 17, 2020 16:53
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Bruceski posted:I caught it. Seemed fine to me. I didn't catch it on the first time through but on a reread it's definitely there. In addition to the quotes given, Thom is constantly asking after where Moiraine is, what she's doing, if she's safe. At the time you can assume it's just because he hates Aes Sedai, but the context definitely shows personal concern for her specifically and he doesn't do it for any of the other Aes Sedai
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May 17, 2020 16:59
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DarkHorse posted:I didn't catch it on the first time through but on a reread it's definitely there. Also, they clearly *respect* each other from the very start. Often in the way you respect a rattlesnake but still
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May 17, 2020 17:17
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I’m sorry, he didn’t earn that reveal. Specially when his idea of foreshadowing is when every prophecy mentioned comes true. Bout as subtle as a brick to the face.
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May 17, 2020 17:18
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Invalid Validation posted:I’m sorry, he didn’t earn that reveal. Specially when his idea of foreshadowing is when every prophecy mentioned comes true. Bout as subtle as a brick to the face. Earned in the sense that anything else in the books is earned, then? Also there's a difference between prophecy and foreshadowing. Prophecy is flat out telling you something will happen (even if not exactly in the way you would have understood it), and is diegetic. Foreshadowing is just leaving little hints here and there about things, often times in only ways only the reader will understand. For example, "I would sooner cut off an arm than to hurt you" is foreshadowing. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 18:12
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I had assumed that killed in the Dream was final death, permanently, which is what *really* pissed me off, motherfucker killed Hopper twice, what the gently caress Basically an offshoot of the idea that final death is in-universe a flawed understanding of the metaphysics of the setting since logically there is no final death in the wheel or the pattern unless the Dark One breaks the wheel (in which case all bets are off). I call it the Theory of the Conservation of Souls, souls are neither created nor destroyed. The pattern is how the soul experiences things and the pattern can be damaged or the soul removed from the pattern, or captured by the Dark One, but that is always temporary. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that a soul can be forever removed from the wheel and the pattern besides what characters claim happen, in-universe, and the only people who might know better, the Heroes of the Horn, dont appear to believe in anything like that while in their dream selves. If it is so for people who die and go to the dream, why not then for the wolves who are apparently equally special?
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May 17, 2020 18:30
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Invalid Validation posted:I’m sorry, he didn’t earn that reveal. Specially when his idea of foreshadowing is when every prophecy mentioned comes true. Bout as subtle as a brick to the face. You'll probably find on a reread that it's more obvious. I certainly did. It's written in such a way that it's just hinted at because, bluntly, it's none of the main character's business, and all of them had bigger things to worry about anyway.
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May 17, 2020 20:01
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:You'll probably find on a reread that it's more obvious. I certainly did. It's written in such a way that it's just hinted at because, bluntly, it's none of the main character's business, and all of them had bigger things to worry about anyway. Yeah, there's tons of stuff setting it up, even back in the first book. Thom constantly catches himself thinking that Morraine is a pretty woman, and Morraine drops multiple hints that indicate that she has prophetic knowledge that Thom can't possibly have been killed by that Fade after talking to Min. Later on, she's equally sure that he won't die in Tarabon, There are other hints; foretellings that Thom and Mat will go into the Tower of Ghenji together ("Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind") to rescue someone, who could it possibly be? etc. Also, frankly, ““I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband....perhaps I only meant we share an ignorance. Do not read too much into a few words.” is the single most obviously weasel-wordy Aes Sedai thing Morraine in the entire series, which is a dead giveaway.
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May 17, 2020 21:40
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it was very definitely built up to over the course of the series, this poo poo wasn't out of nowhere.
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May 17, 2020 21:58
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It just isn't front and centre, because it isn't that important to the main characters
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May 17, 2020 21:59
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it's also subtle because the characters involved are elegant and sophisticated courtiers and not thirsty teenagers
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May 17, 2020 22:11
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