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Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Technically, most people would call raken dragons as well, I think.

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Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Was Elayne revealed already?

I suspect they're in no rush to cast Tuon. She first appears in book 9 after all.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Mat Cauthon posted:

Who are the showrunners? How much involvement does Jordan's widow have? What are the production values going to be? Are we getting visuals inspired by Bad Book of Art or the bad fan art or the bad covers or...why does this series have so much bad art? Wasn't there a proposed MMO or card game or something where the halfway decent stuff like this (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/35/15/3e/35153e1268f2b5402cb381ab63faa05a.jpg) came from?

You can browse this site (http://wotccg.mahasamatman.com/Lists.HTML) to see all the various WoT trading cards.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Just off the top of my head:

Galad is bishounen

Avienda is tsundere

Tar Valon is a school for magical girls

Rand has three girlfriends, color-coded: one blonde, one redhead, and one brunette

The series took twenty-three years to finish


that's just off the top of my head

There must be an anime term for Gawyn's particular strand of stupidity.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Mad Hamish posted:

While I'm here it would have been neat if literally anything had happened with those titular Towers of Midnight.

The Towers of Midnight are both famous buildings in Seanchan, and another term for the Forsaken. And there was quite a lot of Forsaken action going on in ToM.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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His descent into madness is so well written imo. I remember being really spooked when Taim gave him one of the Seals, and suddenly Rand is holding it over his head, ready to smash it to pieces, while Lews Therin is chanting in his head "Break it break them all must break them must must must break them all and strike must strike quickly must strike now break it break it break it..." And Rand himself is muttering to himself "Must break it now break them all break it break it break it.", with the only thing stopping him from throwing the Seal down on the floor being Bashere holding his arms. It was such a shock, the first time I realized that he's going insane, and getting worse with each book. There was some weirdness in his behavior in book 2 already, but this event really hit home for me how he's descending into madness.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Jfc shes Semirhage. Like a spot-on Semirhage.

A bit too light skinned to be Semirhage, but otherwise spot on. I love the actress, she's so amazing, so I wouldn't mind her playing Semirhage at all.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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The Lord Bude posted:

That AV of yours is my all time favourite piece of WoT art. I was always sad most people never got to see those ebook covers, they should have reprinted the books with them. The original US cover art is terrible.

The Winter's Heart ebook cover is the best of the new covers, it's really amazing.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Data Graham posted:

I only have one burning question about the TV show: how many mustaches will they attach to Thom's face

All of them, obviously.

Another burning question: Will we get an entire episode of Elayne bathing?

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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The Lord Bude posted:

First bathing scene in the book is the Rand, Mat, Perrin and Lan in the Inn when they get to Baerlon. Then after that we get the 3 boys being embarrassed about mixed sex public baths in Shienar. I hope they don't discriminate with the male nudity like most shows do.

There's not a lot of nudity after this IIRC? Some people being taken gai'shain by the Aiel, and Elayne bathing, I can't recall more instances right now.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Bmac32 posted:

There were a few times when Eqwene was training with the wise ones and they were trying to get her married off where dudes would just stroll on into the sweat tents.

Right, just because the only important people in the sweat tents were all women doesn't mean there couldn't be dudes in the background.


I wonder how they would portrait "Ta'veren television", where all of the three boys could see images of the other two just by thinking of them. I was just reminded of this when I recalled that Mat saw Rand shaving one time, which would be another "opportunity" to show a half-naked guy.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Sab669 posted:

Was this ever used in a "meaningful" way? Like did X see Y in a vision and then go, "Oh poo poo I gotta get to Y immediately"?

To the best of my poor memory, it was always just like a "Huh I wonder Y is up to" sort of thing that never proved meaningful -- if so, then I'm sure this would just be scrapped for TV.


Basileus777 posted:

IIRC Rand uses this to locate Mat in AMOL. It's not really plot critical at any point. It's generally just used as a device to get the POV to introspect about the other two.

Book 9, 10 and 12 spoilers: Both in Mat's and Perrin's camps, the channelers get pretty upset when they sense the Cleansing. Mat and Perrin experience a pretty violent vision of Rand sitting in front of Nynaeve, and deduce that it's not actually the Forsaken doing god knows what, but the Dragon Reborn doing it, which makes it nothing to worry about. Also, in The Gathering Storm, Nynaeve prods Rand to tell her what he can about Perrin, but he only knows that Perrin is near a certain statue that he doesn't recognize. She goes back to Cadsuane with the information, who uses the description of the statue to locate Perrin's camp and fetch Tam. Which results in that meeting between Tam and Rand in which Rand nearly kills his father.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Henrik Zetterberg posted:

The one that pisses me off the most is burr-gee-tuh vs beer-git-tuh. gently caress that second pronunciation is awful.

The second pronunciation is a lot closer to it's Scandinavian roots though.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Khizan posted:

One of my favorite things about the Forsaken is how many of them seem to have gone over to the Shadow just because of Lews Therin. There's even a point where the Lews Therin voice in Rand's head muses something along the lines of "Demandred could very well have been one of the greatest heroes of the age if I had been more of a friend and less of an antagonistic competitive rear end in a top hat."

That does make me wonder how he treated the rest of them. I mean, how big of an rear end in a top hat do you have to be to make so many of the best and brightest on your side go "You know what? gently caress that guy, I'm going to go sign on with Satan"?

There are two quotes about this that I can remember (and find in a quick google search). There's the thing you mention "Demandred should have been a hero. If Id offered a hand instead of a smirk, if Id congratulated instead of competed. If Id been the man then that I am now...", which clearly shows the flaws in LTT that contributed to Demandred (and Sammael) pledging themselves to the Dark One.

But there's also this earlier quote from Lews Therin's ramblings in LoC: "Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them. The more honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over." He did honor them, he probably just was arrogant enough to be incompatible with the also huge egos of Demandred and Sammael. It doesn't read as if he just treated them like dirt, so that their fall to the Shadow would be understandable. Demandred also has this inner monologue that he should have been the first of the (ancient) Aes Sedai, that LTT had always been overrated. His ego was just as big as Lews Therin's, and perhaps he simply could not accept being only the second most important Light side person. So he rather went over to the Shadow to be it's foremost general.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Okay, that's Perrin, Rand, Mat, Thom, Lan, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Egwene?, Egwene?, Elayne, Aviendha, Min, Ishamael.

So who's the second Egwene?

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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EvilTaytoMan posted:

I think first Egwene is Faile.

I totally forgot Faile even existed

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Dankzilla posted:

The books have little symbols at the start of chapters that clue you in on what going to happen in that chapter. Haven't read them in forever but I don't remember struggling with that at all. Not sure if the kindle version keeps those in.

Those symbols also allowed Robert Jordan to be a bit sneaky. Like the chapter that had Lanfear's chapter icon at the start, yet there was no appearance by Lanfear in it... or so one might think when first reading the chapter.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who appreciated the Aes Sedai politics stuff in those books

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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The Lord Bude posted:

Yeah, although she turns into a frothing loon the instant anyone mentions fan fiction.

Yeah, her attitude to fan fiction is nuts. Still, her books are really good, and it's sad that she doesn't get more recognition. That said, I didn't find her books too grimdark. Not more than those of Joe Abercrombie, for example.

As for Sanderson, I like his books a lot. Of course his WoT books are not as good as Robert Jordan's, but that's just because he finished a work not his own. And he did it rather well, imho. And even if you think books 12-14 were just mediocre, knowing how the series ended should be worth it regardless.

Reading Elantris first is a mistake btw., because it was his first published book, and is easily his worst. Emperor's Soul is so much better, and won a Hugo for a reason.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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ChubbyChecker posted:

Does this mean that she supports writing fan fiction?

Nope. Now I personally don't care about fan fiction, but whatever floats your boat. Hobb however went on a crazy rant about how "writing fanfiction is stealing my intellectual property!!! even if you do it for free!"

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Unmarked spoilers

As I wrote years ago in the WoT thread, my reaction to Gawyn's death was something along the lines of "good riddance" and "about time!". He was easily in the top 5 worst WoT characters.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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VikingofRock posted:

Nynaeve's chapters are great for the same reason. She has pretty much every quality that she complains about in men, and is often demonstrating that quality at that exact moment.

When Elayne and Nynaeve send Birgitte to talk to Mat in Crown of Swords, where he finally recognizes her for who she is, Nynaeve thinks to herself something like "thank god the Light they sent Birgitte, it would have been a catastrophe to send Thom or Juilin, they only would have gotten drunk together". When this all backfires spectacularly on Elayne and Nynaeve, the very last words of that chapter are Nynaeve's inner monologue "she knew she should have sent Thom and Juilin!".

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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ChubbyChecker posted:

Yeah, from The Shadow Rising, Chapter 22:

Standing, he dug into his pouch and pulled out the small hard object, a carving of a shiny orange stone that fit easily into his hand, a round-faced round-bodied cat sitting. He rubbed a thumb over the figure's head.

Actual quote:

Standing, he dug into his pouch and pulled out the small hard object, a carving of shiny dark green stone that fit easily into his hand, a round-faced round-bodied man sitting cross-legged with a sword across his knees.

I only know this because the little Buddha angreal is pretty famous in WoT circles.

See here: http://wotccg.mahasamatman.com/Premier/Gallery/?227

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Some of the alternative governments are hardly better than a dictatorship anyway. Like the High Lords (and Ladies) of Tear for example. Or inheritable monarchies in general.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Verin shows up with the Amyrlin's delegation to Fal Dara, yeah.

Gawyn, Elaida, and Morgase, are major recurring characters we should see cast. Galad might not show up until Elayne arrives at Tar Valon?

The rest of the major characters are like, the chump Forsaken and various smaller parts. Maybe an early intro to Masema and Uno?

(Sean Bean for Geofram Bornhald please)

Galad immediately snitches on Elayne for "entertaining" Rand in her garden when he falls into it.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Welp, after 3 years and 3 months, I finally finished the series today. Read the first 3-4, and listened to the rest on audiobook during my work commute. It feels super weird to be done with it.

Random thoughts:
- The foresaken kind of mostly blended together to me throughout the books. I could never remember who did what since they weren't focused on too much. Like, I remember Asmodean (where the hell did he go? He didn't die, right?) for being with Rand for a while, Moghedien for being captive for a while then showing up at the end, Graendal for her battle with Aviendha, and Semirhage for zapping Rand's hand off. It'll be funny if I didn't match all of those names up correctly. Other than that, they were all just a big blend and could have been replaced with $FORESAKEN_OF_THE_DAY. Maybe if there were less, and each one got more pages? I dunno, I just had a hard time keeping them straight, with a few exceptions. Looking at the list of the foresaken on the WoT wiki, I couldn't tell you a single thing about Sammael, Aginor, Balthamel, or Be'lal. I either just straight up don't remember the names at all, or just can't remember who did what.

Well, some of them are not memorable because they only appear in the climax of book 1, only to immediately die (Aginor and Belthamel). Then they get reincarnated by the Dark One into Aran'gar and Osan'gar (Left Dagger and Right Dagger respectively), but that specific fact was easy to miss if one didn't pay close attention. It's never directly stated in the books, but it's pretty clear when they take part in one of the Forsaken gatherings. I think Aginor becomes Aran'gar, and Belthamel Osan'gar, but I'm too lazy to check. Osan'gar then masquerades as one of the three Asha'man that accompany Rand for a few books, and he does... nothing. Absolutely nothing, until he gets killed by Verin in the Cleansing. Aran'gar poses as Halima, and basically oversees the rebel Aes Sedai, and tries meddles a bit without any real consequences. She then gets killed when Rand tries to off Graendal in book 12.

Be'lal is even worse, since he just appeared at the end of The Shadow Rising to have a mini-fight with Rand over Callandor, only to be shot in the back with Baelfire by Moiraine. And since he was killed by Baelfire, the Dark One couldn't reincarnate him.

Sammael was the guy who ruled Illian, and he had this sort of fight with Rand in Shadar Logoth. He wasn't that important.

By the way, Graendal kills Asmodean in book 5.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Mat Cauthon posted:

Regarding Asmodean - it's implied but never 100% confirmed (I think) that Graendal kills him after the Camelyn showdown with Raevin, in order to punish him for his shifting loyalties, deny Rand a competent teacher and knowledge source from the AoL, and to facilitate Rand's growing paranoia over betrayal/enemies hiding in the shadows, etc.

Also I need to get around to reading the last two books, for the big showdown if nothing else. I'm very glad to hear that Demandred's plotline was impactful overall, I always kinda thought it would either end in a wet fart offscreen or go in the direction that everyone suspected (Taim). He really was the wildcard that no one saw coming.

Oh, you haven't read the last two books? No wonder you don't know that it's confirmed that Graendal kills Asmodean. In the loving Glossary of Towers of Midnight!
I'm still a little bit mad about that.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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RJ had already confirmed that at least Moiraine got her three wishes, so fans speculated that Lanfear might have gotten hers, too. And used one to kill Asmodean. Some even thought Moiraine might have used one of hers to off him.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Comrade Blyatlov posted:

That he has red hair?

No, that he uses a sword?

I would guess it's his missing one hand.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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The ancestor flashbacks were my favorite part of the series. Also super effective in destroying a people's story about themselves. And you realize that both offshoots are lost ones.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Yes

And the volcano thingy.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Patrat posted:

Nynaeve in particular I found myself completely changing opinion of when re-reading. Of course she thinks that most of the 'main characters' are complete idiots, she was having to deal with them being lovely teenagers whilst being in her mid twenties!

Cadsuane is the character who, upon re-reading as an adult, still comes across as an utterly lovely person who has no right to be anywhere near any kind of position of authority.

Colonel Cool posted:

I read most of these books obsessively as a child, and then reread all of them recently some fifteen years later.

My perspectives on Nynaeve, Elayne, Galad, Gawyn, and Moiraine all basically did a 180. It's kind of jarring. I think I may have been an idiot as a child.


You can go to any WoT forum and find posts of people completely changing their mind about Nynaeve. It's extremely common. But you will notice that even in the RJ books, Rand never loses the respect he has for her, when he otherwise let's nobody boss him around (or tries to).

Liking Gawyn at any point is concerning. I think you might be right about child you being an idiot, Colonel Cool. Thankfully, you've grown out of that.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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eke out posted:

on reread, i thought Sanderson did that Red (Pevara I think?) really well - it was nice to see like an actually normal person who takes their ideals seriously, and has some wrong impressions as a result, but isn't a loving crazy evil sadist. i wonder if that was one of those things jordan planned all along in order to subvert his own tropes, or was a Sanderson thing

Pevara was introduced in book 7. And one of the first things we learn is that she doesn't hate men and sometimes spoke out in favor of Reds bonding Warders. She's very different from basically any other Red we've ever seen, and she was very clearly designed to be firmly on the side of Team Good from the very start.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Vavrek posted:

You know, I'm looking at the map, and I'm seeing a whole lot of unclaimed land between Baerlon and the southern tip of Saldea.

Really, marry some of their kids to Elayne's twins (doesn't that come up during negotiations at one point and Perrin gets mad about arranged/political marriages?) and unite the whole heartland under one dynasty.

edit: I mean, I know whatever gets set up is probably going to have a hard time weathering the next couple generations, but the premise is there to start making some large unified power blocks.

In said negotiations, it succession also comes up, and they agree that if one of Faile's kids inherits Saldea, it can't also inherit the Two Rivers.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Jack2142 posted:

I mean if Crusader Kings teaches anything... Gavelkind will end in blood.

Amazingly enough, CK2 could model this very situation very well. Imagine Andor being the Kingdom of England (of course), the Two Rivers being the Duchy of Cornwall, and Saldea being the Kingdom of Wales. The duke of Cornwall has married the queen of Wales in a regular marriage. When his wife dies, his oldest son become king of Wales. What happens when the duke dies?

If there are no provisions, the king of Wales inherits Cornwall/the king or queen of Saldea inherits the Two Rivers. That's the scenario that Elayne is explicitly mentioning. But if England's crown laws have Controlled Realm Inheritance, then titles cannot pass outside the realm through inheritance. Thus the second son of the Cornish duke would inherit the duchy. Like the second oldest child of Faile and Perrin would inherit the Two Rivers under the charter drawn up by Elayne.

And in CK2, it would also avoid a gavelkind hellwar, since the king of Wales is not likely to win a war pressing his claim on Cornwall against much bigger England, while the English king isn't likely to press his duke's claim on Wales, since that would lose him the duchy for no benefit to himself.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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It's the chapter Swovan Night in The Crown of Swords, and it's one of my all time favorite chapters in WoT. It's the chapter where Mat realizes that Birgitte is really the Birgitte, where she tricks him into revealing he speaks the Old Tongue, and where they seal a kind of mutual pact of secrecy. "What language do we speak, Hornsounder?" is a truly great moment. And Elayne and Nynaeve get some long overdue pushback for treating Mat like an infant.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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TheShadowAvatar posted:

Was it ever explained why the Aes Sedai didn't join Lews in sealing up the tear all those years ago? Or did they and I am just forgetting it.

The female Aes Sedai favored using the Choedan Kal (huge Sa'angreal statues) to erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a more permanent solution could be found, and found the plan by LTT and the male Aes Sedai too dangerous.

Too bad the forces of the Shadow overran the locations where the access key ter'angreal were hidden, without which the Choedan Kal couldn't be used.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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^^e:

Invalid Validation posted:

Do the books ever go into why hes named the Dragon Reborn when nobody seems to know what a dragon is?

They don't know what a dragon is, but people in the Age of Legends clearly did (he had a big dragon as his personal banner after all), and they gave LTT the title Dragon. Knowledge of dragons was lost, but not that LTT was the Dragon (and the Kinslayer). And through foretelling the people knew that he would be reborn, hence the Dragon Reborn.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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UltraRed posted:

The Aiel call themselves The People of the Dragon. I think they know that the tattoos are dragons, unless there's a verse I've forgotten.

There's a scene at the end of The Dragon Reborn, where Moiraine muse about the prophecies foretelling that the Stone of Tear would never fall until the People of the Dragon came, and speculate of whether they (Moiraine, Mat, Egwene & co.) are the People of the Dragon. To which Rhuarc rolls up his sleeve to show his tattoo, and reveals the the Aiel call themselves People of the Dragon. So at least clan chiefs knew that the tattoo they got was depicting a dragon.

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Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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JOHN SKELETON posted:

I'm up to The Shadow Rising in my reread and gently caress, that Rhuidean vision sequence is still one of the best sequences in any scifi/fantasy ever. Reading it as an adult it was also profoundly sad.

But re: "People of the Dragon", I actually don't get that part in terms of history. I don't think it was mentioned in the Rhuidean visions at all, was it? Or were the ancient Aiels all serving Lews Therin specifically, and not Aes Sedai in general? Or was the name part of a later Foretelling?

It probably comes from this part:

quote:

He shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword - perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling - held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling on the floor.. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the curse man as well?

[...]

"Singing," Someshta said. "Was there singing? So much is gone. The Aes Sedai say some will return. You are a Child of the Dragon, are you not?"

Jonai winced. That name had caused trouble, no less for not being true. But how many citizens now believed the Da'shain Aiel had once served the Dragon and no other Aes Sedai?

If I understand it correctly, since LTT was the leader of the Aes Sedai, after he sealed the Bore and became the Kinslayer, rumors got spread that the Aiel only ever served him, making them the Children of the Dragon.


Edit: The Shadow Rising has so many great moments. I find this one pretty great, too:

quote:

The dawn shadows shortened and paled as Rand and Mat jogged across the barren, still-dark valley floor, leaving fog-shrouded Ruhidean behing.

[...]

The old, half-healed wound in Rand's side felt as though something were boring into it, and the gashes on his face and head burned, yet lumbering along, half-hunched over his aching side, he hardly thought of his own hurts. He was all too conscious of the sun rising behind him, and the Aiel waiting on the bare mountainside ahead. There was water and shade up there, and help for Mat. The riding sun behind, and the Aiel ahead. Dawn and the Aiel.

He Who Comes With the Dawn. That Aes Sedai he had seen, or dreamed he had seen, before Rhuidean - she had spoken as if she had the Foretelling. He will bind you together. He will take you back, and destroy you.Words delivered like prophecy. Destroy them. Prophecy said he would Break the World again. The idea horrified him. Perhaps he could escape that part, at least, but war, death and destruction already welled up in his footsteps. Tear was the first place in what seemed a very long time where he had not left chaos behind, men dying and villages burning.

He found himself wishing he could climb on Jaede'en and run as fast as the stallion could carry him. It was not the first time. But I can't run, he thought. I have it to do because there isn't anybody else who can. I do it, or the Dark One wins. A hard bargain, but the only one there was. But why would I destroy the Aiel? How?

That last thought chilled him. It was too much like accepting that he would, that he should. He did not want to harm the Aiel."Light," he said harshly, "I don't want to destroy anybody."

Is it any wonder he suffers from PTSD? This is all kinds of horrible, hosed up poo poo, and he's like... 16 or something like that?

Torrannor fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jan 8, 2020

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