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Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard


quote:

This is the new fallacy. I've been noticing that no matter how much is communicated that anyone who FEELS that they are being ignored begins to blame communication. I have the SAME information that everyone else does, but I'm satisfied with what has been related. Mostly because I've been tangentially in the industry for near 30 years. So the information isn't what is at fault, but the reader's skill stacks.

This isn't a communication deficit, it is an experience deficit.

quote:

There is no way that CIG can impart the experience I have in order to understand what is going on. No matter what they say, people will FEEL it is wrong, thus it is. There is nothing that will change those feelings except for the one who is feeling them. There is no logic that can get past those feelings unless the person is open to receive it. Unfortunately, humans are not designed for that. Humans are not rational animals.

quote:

CDProjektRED has shown no more than CIG has, so that's not a good point. My point is that they started 4 months prior to CIG's project launch, they clearly have a lead in terms of people, tools, and experience as a company. CIG had none of the benefits. To keep up with CDProjektRED is a testament to CIG.

This, given that Squadron 42 is more ambitious, but at least similar in enough ways, is a good measuring stick in which to judge Squadron 42. I predicted Cyberpunk 2077 to be delayed and I was correct. The similar things that CDProjektRED is doing and the problems CIG has run into are the same. When CIG noted that it was a problem with the same tech, I knew then that Cyberpunk 2077 would be delayed. I was called a White Knight defending CIG and that they wouldn't. My take was correct.

As I haven't seen that the tech is a problem at CIG anymore, I don't expect any more delays for Cyberpunk 2077 based on that technology. As with all things, I take them as they come, not as I want them to be. I'm neither negative, nor positive about a subject. I simply state what I see. It is still my opinion, but I've been mostly vindicated so far.

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Bumble He
Jul 1, 2018



so we have a budget of ish 1 billion and 24 years.
chris also stated each dollar allows them “to make it better AND finish faster“

so according to my calculations it should have been completed in one afternoon.

which in turn means that there must be a secret dev built which is the most beautiful thing in teh world.

Bumble He fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Aug 1, 2020

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard


Bumble He posted:

also each dollar raised through krautfunding counts 4 times more then the budget of a classic publisher controlled videogame.
i am sure you all remember the highly detailed calculations/infographics from chris where he concludes:

“yep, according to our calculations each dollar pledged for start criticism corresponds to 4 dollars in traditional game dev.“

colonelwest
Jun 30, 2018

Goon Top-Secret Deep State False Flag Operations Commander


trucutru posted:

Star Citizer: A rough mockup of the proposed new thread title

no_recall
Aug 17, 2015



Lipstick Apathy

https://jalopnik.com/one-week-old-t...sion-1844564706

https://twitter.com/rationalwalk/st...884767811874823

The fans sound like hardcore backers.

https://twitter.com/Paul04Trader/st...630173945016325

https://twitter.com/atulkalaskar/st...836064912633856

Whole thing is

Also, buy an Idris Tesla

Thoatse
Feb 29, 2016

It's just a pledge bro!


Crobear family boating trip

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard


quote:

Ok, show me another MMO that has 617 TRILLION square miles of play area.

quote:

No man sky and ED are easily comparable and before you mention NMS isn't an MMO; star citizen isn't either. Not yet at least. Though I don't doubt your numbers, where did you get 300 trillion square miles from?

I'd still like to know what groundbreaking tech they have others don't or haven't done to date.

quote:

Except they don't. They load mini-zones which are NOT 617 Trillion square miles.

Strike one.

quote:

lol, no it's not. 9 years later, we're still capped at 50 people and an unplayable tech demo. Come chat when we see an MMO in front of us.

quote:

Sorry, I edited the last one, but I got it wrong. The 64 bit floating point is actually 1,600,000,000,000,000 sq km which converts to 617,763,453,667,920 sq. mi.

Source: math. 2 to the 64th power.

Though your math is incorrect. After 6 years it's capped at 50. The project isn't even 9 years old.

quote:

This is the groundbreaking tech you keep going on and on about?

I was always curious why you're so pro-cig, but your last two responses explained what I was looking for.

I have to ask, can you explain how it's going really well? I'd like to understand how you define really well. I'm trying to understand how anyone could say it's going really well with a straight face.

quote:

I gave it to you. Not accepting the facts shows that you are clearly anti-CIG and there is nothing that will shake you of that, so I'm done wasting time with you. If you cannot accept empirical evidence, I won't waste any more time shaking you from your ideology.

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

Invoking fairy dust is not a crime.



quote:

Say what you will about Peter Molyneux, but at least he released the games he lied about.

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard


quote:

Which way are we spinning the conversation today? See I'm usually not allowed to claim I purchased a ship - I'm firmly talked down, reminded that I've committed a pledge to back the project. A project in Alpha that exists solely due to the generous backing of Citizens like me. There is no shortcut given to me for my backing; in fact, our backing is the only reason there is a rental system in the first place.

I question the very nature of win state in Star Citizen. For example, the Javelin is the ultimate P2W fallacy. No matter whether you grind however many billions of UEC credits the hull would cost, or whether you labored at your job for dozens, perhaps hundreds of hours in order to pay for it in USD - what you have purchased yourself in no way resembles a state that can be called win. What you have purchased is non-binding debt. Operating that ship will require a second job in terms of org affiliation and UEC expenditure. There will be dozens, if not hundred of schedules to balance to field that ship and the support fleet that it will require to maintain a position of operational readiness. Beyond that lets look at smaller examples of the win state fallacy.

I personally own something like 29 ships. I have spent something like $6000 obtaining them, perhaps you own more - but this is what I've spent. I have in no way located a win state in owning any of them. My most expensive fighter - for example, is the Esperia Blade; widely considered among the worst light fighters in the game. It's slow, with a hull made of tissue paper, and weaponry that your average Aurora laughs at. In fact, a Freelancer or Cutlass are both well positioned to dominate the Blade - at 25% of the cost. So why did I buy it? Because I enjoyed the aesthetic and I wanted to have it.

But, lets look toward the top of my fleet to see if any win might be hiding there... If we look at it, we see a Polaris, a Carrack, a few Hercules, and a Gemini. Wow right? Nope. Total cost. I can't fly most any of these vessels in any form of an operational capacity. I require associations and large, constant infusions of cash. I have to work, invest in relationships, invest in the title - every day, or very close to it - simply in order to obtain ANY return on my substantial investment. In fact, I'm receiving virtually no return on the majority of my money because to this day, not only is there no actual 'game', no valid multiplayer mechanics in that non-existent game. I cannot contract players, employ them, assign them work, roles, access - or even retain control of my ship should they decide to gently caress around for the lulz.

In fact, the only purpose my backing has served is to provide funding for CIG, who, throughout my recent experience, is less and less interested in my having done so. But that's another topic. Back to your points... It has long been accepted that aesthetic items that do not confer performance advantage are not considered P2W, this is an industry determination widely supported by the players - I will not litigate it here.

Personally, how many hours of labor would you have to work in order to be able to spend $6000 of Star Citizen backing? Would you consider the number you came up with to be a 'shortcut'? So what is the difference between your salary and my own - hourly or otherwise? Is my investment of hours worked less than your own? How can you know? Does it even matter?

So, since I'm not obtaining a win-state, and my hours worked are still necessarily substantial in order to have that Space Marshall badge under my avatar - I MUST be obtaining equivalent benefit to my investment for there to be any validity to the claim of P2W, yes? So lets see... I get the same concierge access that anyone in the category gets, which is a 24 hour heads up on concept sales. I get access to some additional ship bundles that only someone who is interested in spending over $1000 on the title would even be interested in. I get constant lectures from people about how poo poo my contribution is, and how obscene it is that I could even consider my level of backing more valuable than someone who has only backed an Aurora. I also get the self-loathing lectures of the affluent elite in the concierge forums. The last three times I contacted customer support, it took over six weeks to get any response - and even after waiting two months once, I've been told no when I asked for a skin to be credited to my account.

So in every measurable way, to get the exact same experience, I've worked significantly more hours at my job, just to experience less actual benefit, or return, from my investment in terms of function, capability, and ability than most people who have spent only the amount of the basic package. In addition, I've incurred significant additional obligation to extract functional value from the most expensive assets I apparently own [though that I own anything is hotly in dispute]. Yet, as a Whale, I'm curiously looked down upon by the community that I have disproportionally supported.

And I haven't even addressed the best part of it all... There is no game. There's no persistent universe. There are virtually no productive gameplay loops, no mechanics that have even a reasonable stability. I cannot accumulate credits or possessions or upgrades. My character can't even have a persistent face from update to update. By even the most considerate estimations, this title is between 5 to 8 years from being able to be called a 'release' AND there is a very real threat that the title will find itself tech-locked by engine limitations well before that can even happen. This is to say nothing of the competition from ready-made engines such as Unreal 5 - which are beginning to be resemble Star Citizen's decade-long efforts - as a matter of course.

So, you say, petulantly, that this community-funded endeavor - that you have watched unfold for eight years, that still doesn't exist - that the very people who have spent 5, 10, 25 on up to $40,000 that I am personally aware of - are gaining UNFAIR advantage relative to the hypothetical poor who have contributed no money, no effort, no time to this project??? Better yet, that the legion of backers who could have chosen to spend hundreds or thousands but did not, are being unjustly excluded from any potential experience the game has to offer? That sir, is a joke. In fact, the truth, is this... The real P2W that is going to occur is when all of these assholes who spent tens of thousands of dollars are finally able to assign their fleets of ships to orgs for collective use - suddenly thousands of backers who haven't spent a dime more than the $45 door charge will suddenly have access to every ship in the verse - in cooperative and functional state. For free. Just for showing up and being nice to someone, or joining a group from which they can extract personal advantage an earn credits for use in game. That person who spent$45 and is flying around in a $400 ship that bought and paid for entirely through the labors of another - is what P2W actually looks like i this title - and that, my guy, is exactly what is going to happen the second we can assign out access to our ships.

That's right, it's the people who HAVE NOT who are suddenly going to HAVE access to tens of thousands in completely unearned assets - earning credits along the way. Because that's what the Alpha backers overwhelmingly do; they lend out their ships on the daily, to whoever asks. So don't... Don't come here and say that the people who have funded every. single. day. of this project's history and development are somehow obligated to listen to this stupid poo poo. P2W is a lootbox in a battle royale title where a microtransaction can mean the difference between being bounced on your rear end, or winning the day. That is not, and has never been a part of the Star Citizen experience.

So take that poorly-considered poo poo to reddit, it's tired and played out. It's bitter, and boring - no matter how long you've been associated with the project or how much you may or may not have spent.

quote:

I agree. I have 92 and all I have done is made a poo poo TON of work for myself. I see no win, but a massive mountain to climb to get where I want with all of them.

Well said.

L. Ron Hoover
Nov 9, 2009


quote:

Sorry, I edited the last one, but I got it wrong. The 64 bit floating point is actually 1,600,000,000,000,000 sq km which converts to 617,763,453,667,920 sq. mi.

Source: math. 2 to the 64th power.

Though your math is incorrect. After 6 years it's capped at 50. The project isn't even 9 years old.

so it's 1.6 quadrillion square miles of play. and that's only one star system! when they get 100 systems up and running it'll be 160,000,000,000,000,000 square miles of play, that's 160 quadrillion! Skyrim is apparently 14.3 square miles large! That means Star Citizen will be OVER 11 QUADRILLION SKYRIMS of beautiful bespoke content that you and your future generations can play! Still think development has taken too long?

Dr. Kyle Farnsworth
Apr 23, 2004

"He's a great baker. He's Betty Crocker. He makes the best peanut butter cookies ever."

While you spent your money on fun things,
I backed Star Citizen.
While you played completed games that were fun,
I expanded my fleet
And now you come to me and say
I shouldn't be able to pay to win?!

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

Invoking fairy dust is not a crime.




I call that a quality post/username combo


BTW, there is a new video out, (as usual, with the utmost care given to it being at the high level of quality that SC demands). It's boring and trash but just look at that body language!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va31tQw-Ylo#t=793s

trucutru fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Aug 1, 2020

dejapes
Jan 4, 2020


quote:

Though your math is incorrect. After 6 years it's capped at 50. The project isn't even 9 years old.

Turns out SC development is measured in reverse dog years. It will reach its 10th year of development in 2081.

his nibs
Feb 27, 2016

Welcome to the
Dream Factory


Grimey Drawer

Thuorn posted:

https://www.denofgeek.com/games/sta...pdates-roadmap/


Another supportive article for the masterpiece that is the fantastic and ingenious Roadmap to a Roadmap. heh

"In the interest of objectivity, we would of course never use the words scam, swindle, fraud, flimflam, hustle, or even the phrase “glorified digital crowdfunded timeshare” to describe the Star Citizen situation thus far. What we will say is that the game’s complicated legacy includes record-breaking crowdfunding numbers, an ambitious attempt to create the largest sci-fi game ever imagined, and a series of delays, lawsuits, and questionable practices which have thus far yielded only small segments of a playable experience billing itself as Star Citizen."

his nibs
Feb 27, 2016

Welcome to the
Dream Factory


Grimey Drawer

The Super-Id posted:

Come on, I just requested no gifs of cute animals being devoured.

https://i.imgur.com/FyoCjGq.mp4

Rugganovich
Apr 29, 2017


tuo posted:

Adjust the CvM (Chicken vs. Mouse) slider to the right

Must admit, I was disappointed by the lackadaisical attitude of that black ferret.

Rugganovich
Apr 29, 2017


Thoatse posted:

......Idiot King

Mods, any chance of a name change?

Rugganovich
Apr 29, 2017


monkeytek posted:

We had Tequila Tuesdays and Margarita Thursdays was amazing we ever got anything done.

we used to drink on any day that ended in a y.

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

Invoking fairy dust is not a crime.


Rugganovich posted:

Mods, any chance of a name change?

Wait a minute, you have been here since 2017 and don't know that "idiot king" is an official SA title?

I'll be keeping an eye on you...

Although I guess that now that FYAD is kaput anybody can be the idiot king.

Solarin
Nov 15, 2007



I got totally ripped off for the $6000 of ships I bought, don't you see how this proves the game is balanced?

TheBombPhilosopher
Jan 6, 2020


ggangensis
Aug 24, 2018



Nicholas posted:

This is probably a cold-brew coffee tap

Maybe, but to be honest, if I had to work for CR there would be liquor in it faster than one could say ,hairy pussy’.

Sandepande
Aug 19, 2018



Maybe Chris was honestly asking, because he sure as hell didn"t know.

ggangensis
Aug 24, 2018




Reminds me to read that letter again. Angry sandbox Chris is best Chris. Never saw a guy that is more unfit to lead other people, it’s a joy

Ponzi
Feb 21, 2016


DEPORTED FROM FLAVOR TOWN

ICSA 67 LOSER


Fun Shoe

Thuorn posted:

https://www.denofgeek.com/games/sta...pdates-roadmap/


Another supportive article for the masterpiece that is the fantastic and ingenious Roadmap to a Roadmap. heh

Joe Blobers is back!

quote:

Except this is not about CIG not making progress but not giving a clear enough com about SQ42 next steps.

Facts :thousands of backers are playing every day and ten thousands are joining after each free for all weeks per year letting anyone play/test the current alpha.
Bugs, crash? yes for sure this is an alpha don't expect a game with all possible gameplay and fully polished after many fix patch.
As long you understand it, this is fine. Some patch are more stable than others depending on the quantity of codes changed/added.

Meanwhile, 3.10 is going to be released in few days. In few weeks CIG will provide consolidated roadmap on SQ42+ SC... and those 45$ (nothing more needed) is still the best spent money vs times spend playing/testing alpha versus Triple-A costing more.

Also 3.11 and 3.12 add two new gameplay: tractor beam and the beginning of salvage required tech with free form tool cutting.

There are +1.2 million individual backers and only a tiny fraction (less than a hundred vocal guys try to create havoc regularly. Still several free weeks per year allow anyone to test/play current progress. Conclusion: 10 thousands new backers join at each patch.

I'm glad his enthusiasm isn't waning.

Dwesa
Jul 19, 2016

Might die, but eh.


Ponzi posted:

Joe Blobers is back!

Still several free weeks per year allow anyone to test/play current progress.
Like the last one where at first people couldn't get past character creation screen and when they finally did, servers melted.

Dwesa fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Aug 1, 2020

Mr.Tophat
Apr 7, 2007

You clearly don't understand joke development


I keep watching this but I don't understand

Speaking of which I keep watching CIG but I don't understand

Daztek
Jun 2, 2006



Lipstick Apathy

Mr.Tophat posted:

I keep watching this but I don't understand

Speaking of which I keep watching CIG but I don't understand

pledge more

Inacio
May 20, 2013




Musk simps make cig simps look tame

Mr.Tophat
Apr 7, 2007

You clearly don't understand joke development

Daztek posted:

pledge more

But I've already sung the pledge of allegiance twice and now my voice box is tired, why must you torture me so

his nibs
Feb 27, 2016

Welcome to the
Dream Factory


Grimey Drawer

Mr.Tophat posted:

I keep watching this but I don't understand

Speaking of which I keep watching CIG but I don't understand

maybe an idris purchase will make you understand?

his nibs
Feb 27, 2016

Welcome to the
Dream Factory


Grimey Drawer

https://i.imgur.com/GonslTp.mp4

Mr.Tophat
Apr 7, 2007

You clearly don't understand joke development

his nibs posted:

maybe an idris purchase will make you understand?

Are there those who truly understand the horror that is Star Citizen? Are we all doomed to fail to appreciate the scope of this visionary project?

All of this to say, yes, I shall buy one and reach enlightenment

Nyast
Nov 14, 2017

BLAZING AT THE
SPEED OF LIGHT


L. Ron Hoover posted:

so it's 1.6 quadrillion square miles of play. and that's only one star system! when they get 100 systems up and running it'll be 160,000,000,000,000,000 square miles of play, that's 160 quadrillion! Skyrim is apparently 14.3 square miles large! That means Star Citizen will be OVER 11 QUADRILLION SKYRIMS of beautiful bespoke content that you and your future generations can play! Still think development has taken too long?

These numbers don't even make sense. Like, let's assume this chart is correct:



The surface of a sphere is 4.pi.r^2

If you sum up the surface area for all these moons ( excluding Crusader, which is a gas giant and has no surface ) you get about 47 millions sq. Km.

Even if you add Crusader ( 700 millions sq. Km ) you're "barely" at 750 millions sq. Km.

I'm not sure how you can even reach 1.6 quadrillion sq. km. Counting the "empty space" ? But there's no surface area there, volume would make more sense, but that's not what the guy said. Also, extrapolating a surface area from 2^64 bits ? That literally makes no sense: floating point numbers aren't linear, and even if they were, you still have to define what a unit means ( 1.0 = one meter ? one kilometer ? one millimeter ? ). And even after all of that, a single number only defines a dimension, not a surface. These people are completley clueless.

Nyast fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Aug 1, 2020

Rabelais D
Dec 11, 2012

ts'u nnu k'u k'o t'khye:
A demon doth defecate at thy door

Ponzi posted:

Joe Blobers is back!


I'm glad his enthusiasm isn't waning.


Blobbers Assomble!

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Zazz Razzamatazz posted:


This one confused me for a second- a bunch of PS3 and 360 games?? Oh, right- this is from 2014.

Lotta shooters in there.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Nyast posted:

These numbers don't even make sense. Like, let's assume this chart is correct:



The surface of a sphere is 4.pi.r^2

If you sum up the surface area for all these moons ( excluding Crusader, which is a gas giant and has no surface ) you get about 47 millions sq. Km.

Even if you add Crusader ( 700 millions sq. Km ) you're "barely" at 750 millions sq. Km.

I'm not sure how you can even reach 1.6 quadrillion sq. km. Counting the "empty space" ? But there's no surface area there, volume would make more sense, but that's not what the guy said. Also, extrapolating a surface area from 2^64 bits ? That literally makes no sense: floating point numbers aren't linear, and even if they were, you still have to define what a unit means ( 1.0 = one meter ? one kilometer ? one millimeter ? ). And even after all of that, a single number only defines a dimension, not a surface. These people are completley clueless.

Yes. And somone nicked my comparison chart, but no matter, they filled in some of the numbers and confirmed that their gas giant is waaaaaaayyy too small.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

monkeytek posted:

We had Tequila Tuesdays and Margarita Thursdays was amazing we ever got anything done.

There was an irony about having a drink-free workplace, but also having a kegerator on every floor. It’s not unusual. Yahoo employs baristas and has snack dispensers.

Me, a developer/engineer that doesn’t drink? I’m a white whale.

Kosumo
Apr 9, 2016


L. Ron Hoover posted:

so it's 1.6 quadrillion square miles of play. and that's only one star system! when they get 100 systems up and running it'll be 160,000,000,000,000,000 square miles of play, that's 160 quadrillion! Skyrim is apparently 14.3 square miles large! That means Star Citizen will be OVER 11 QUADRILLION SKYRIMS of beautiful bespoke content that you and your future generations can play! Still think development has taken too long?

So ...... Buy alot more land claims?

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his nibs
Feb 27, 2016

Welcome to the
Dream Factory


Grimey Drawer

https://i.imgur.com/xCiFtIn.mp4

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