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Big Bidness posted:I'm guessing the George The Animal Steele involvement, and the roll up finish is why Dave didn't go 5. Wargames owns
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Jul 26, 2020 19:11
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I imagine to people watching NWA and Japan, Steamboat/Savage was just fine. As someone who only had WWF on TV, it was loving great. All the star stuff is incredibly subjective.
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Jul 26, 2020 19:11
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Ganso Bomb posted:I imagine to people watching NWA and Japan, Steamboat/Savage was just fine. As someone who only had WWF on TV, it was loving great. All the star stuff is incredibly subjective. That's part of it, too, for me. It just seems like an arbitrary rating you give out based on your gut reaction.
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Jul 26, 2020 19:14
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Randaconda posted:Ricky was just about done at that time, his back was shot, so I don't doubt it I don't know about, he had a great match with Flair at Spring Stampede 94
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Jul 26, 2020 19:18
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FakePoet posted:I know it's not a universal truth or anything, but run time seems to be something of a bar to really getting highly rated as a match. I know Meltzer is what a lot of people go by, but what are some examples of really good matches relative to their length? Are there any 5+ star sprints? Samoa Joe vs. Necro Butcher was just under 10 minutes MorrisBae fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jul 26, 2020 |
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Jul 26, 2020 19:19
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Red posted:That's part of it, too, for me. It just seems like an arbitrary rating you give out based on your gut reaction. thats what Dave says too
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Jul 26, 2020 20:16
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JOHN CENA posted:i mean there was better wrestling happening right here in the states at the same time Yeah, one of the Flair/Windham 5 star matches was only a couple of months before WM3 and as such would have been in recent memory, and no way was Savage/Steamboat as good as that.
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Jul 26, 2020 20:22
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Savage/Steamboat is a very good match that got inflated to legendary status because nobody was wrestling like that in 1987 WWF and it blew people's minds. I'm honestly kinda surprised they got away with it.
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Jul 26, 2020 21:27
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thought it was a great match. 
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Jul 26, 2020 22:34
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Steamboat/Savage is fine but I think truly great matches generally don't need qualifiers. Funk-Flair from 2 years later is one of my all time favorite matches and it doesn't require any "Well you have to consider the environment and time period,"
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Jul 26, 2020 22:50
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Nut Bunnies posted:Steamboat/Savage is fine but I think truly great matches generally don't need qualifiers. Funk-Flair from 2 years later is one of my all time favorite matches and it doesn't require any "Well you have to consider the environment and time period," that match loving owns god, Flair in 89 was just the best
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Jul 26, 2020 22:59
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Randaconda posted:um
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Jul 27, 2020 00:03
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They don't know about our ways in the WCW thread 
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Jul 27, 2020 00:19
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Nut Bunnies posted:Steamboat/Savage is fine but I think truly great matches generally don't need qualifiers. Funk-Flair from 2 years later is one of my all time favorite matches and it doesn't require any "Well you have to consider the environment and time period," Is it odd that I measure how great a match is against HHH/Cactus Jack from Royal Rumble 2000? That match, for me, had so many things about what made wrestling great - buying that the underdog could really pull it off, callbacks to previous matches, and honestly, what makes it for me, is that Foley and Hunter kept finding new places to go. Plus, they pulled off a carny trick with the 2x4 switcheroo.
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Jul 27, 2020 00:58
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Randaconda posted:that match loving owns We're talking about the I Quit match, right? Still one of my favourite ever and probably one of the one or two matches you should use to prove that Flair's every bit as good a face as he was a heel.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:46
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What was Inoki's finisher?
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Jul 27, 2020 02:27
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TTBF posted:What was Inoki's finisher? Probably a few over the years but the enzuigiri is the iconic one
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Jul 27, 2020 02:38
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Red posted:Is it odd that I measure how great a match is against HHH/Cactus Jack from Royal Rumble 2000? That match, for me, had so many things about what made wrestling great - buying that the underdog could really pull it off, callbacks to previous matches, and honestly, what makes it for me, is that Foley and Hunter kept finding new places to go. Plus, they pulled off a carny trick with the 2x4 switcheroo. Wouldn't say it's odd at all. That's generally considered a great match in the history of the company. Gaz-L posted:We're talking about the I Quit match, right? Still one of my favourite ever and probably one of the one or two matches you should use to prove that Flair's every bit as good a face as he was a heel. Yes, that match. I Before E posted:Probably a few over the years but the enzuigiri is the iconic one That and the Octopus Hold.
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Jul 27, 2020 04:49
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also the octopus transitioned into a ground cradle
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Jul 27, 2020 08:57
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oh and Clotheslining Opponent Out Of The Ring And Getting The Decision Via Count Out
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Jul 27, 2020 08:57
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Gaz-L posted:We're talking about the I Quit match, right? Still one of my favourite ever and probably one of the one or two matches you should use to prove that Flair's every bit as good a face as he was a heel. People remember Flair as this big time heel, but he always had a lot of fan support.
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Jul 27, 2020 09:02
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Randaconda posted:People remember Flair as this big time heel, but he always had a lot of fan support. One of my favorite periods of WCW was Flair's face run right before Hogan came in.
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Jul 27, 2020 13:59
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bartok posted:One of my favorite periods of WCW was Flair's face run right before Hogan came in. the Flair/Vader program was good
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Jul 27, 2020 14:17
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They really sold the buildup to that as "Yup, Flair's walking to his death"
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Jul 27, 2020 15:07
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Randaconda posted:People remember Flair as this big time heel, but he always had a lot of fan support. His hottest runs business wise were as a face.
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Jul 27, 2020 15:09
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MassRafTer posted:His hottest runs business wise were as a face. How did he draw as the new heel in early 90s WWF? When they first brought him in, he had the REAL WORLD'S CHAMPION thing going, he picked fights with Piper, teased a big match with Hogan, and ended up getting involved in the Undertaker match(es). Then he transitioned over to Savage, and did that for a while, even while working house show programs with Undertaker, all before he dropped the belt to Bret. Then he moved to Perfect before leaving. It seemed like he was just doing a lot of different things instead of one sustained program, which seemed more the standard practice at the time.
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Jul 27, 2020 15:13
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Red posted:How did he draw as the new heel in early 90s WWF? When they first brought him in, he had the REAL WORLD'S CHAMPION thing going, he picked fights with Piper, teased a big match with Hogan, and ended up getting involved in the Undertaker match(es). Then he transitioned over to Savage, and did that for a while, even while working house show programs with Undertaker, all before he dropped the belt to Bret. Then he moved to Perfect before leaving. It seemed like he was just doing a lot of different things instead of one sustained program, which seemed more the standard practice at the time. I'm guessing not great for a bunch of reasons. I love Bret Hart to an irrational degree, but I don't think putting the belt on him out of the blue happens if Naitch is doing good business. Plus they ran house shows in California with Hogan vs Flair on top and were shocked at the middle of the road business it did. Flair in WWE definitely has its' moments. The Rumble. Multiple good matches with Savage. His loser leaves town match with Perfect. But IIRC, when Ric's deal came up, he and Vince agreed that it wasn't quite working the way they'd hoped. El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 15:20
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Red posted:How did he draw as the new heel in early 90s WWF? When they first brought him in, he had the REAL WORLD'S CHAMPION thing going, he picked fights with Piper, teased a big match with Hogan, and ended up getting involved in the Undertaker match(es). Then he transitioned over to Savage, and did that for a while, even while working house show programs with Undertaker, all before he dropped the belt to Bret. Then he moved to Perfect before leaving. It seemed like he was just doing a lot of different things instead of one sustained program, which seemed more the standard practice at the time. His first house show run with Hogan did really well, the second time through not so well. WrestleMania did fine for the era but 1992 was not a good year.
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Jul 27, 2020 15:50
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Didn't WCW draw more with Hogan/Flair than WWE did?
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Jul 27, 2020 16:53
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Didn't WCW draw more with Hogan/Flair than WWE did? Yeah but you are talking about PPVs months (and then years) apart vs house shows so it is kind of apples and oranges. But the first Hogan vs Flair match and the Superbrawl 99 match were giant.
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Jul 27, 2020 17:06
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Didn't WCW draw more with Hogan/Flair than WWE did? I think so. WWF cooled off significantly after 1989 and the booking started to get really, really crappy after that whether it was a reaction or just Vince being Vince. Flair was presented as a kook with some pretender belt.
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Jul 27, 2020 17:12
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Nut Bunnies posted:I think so. WWF cooled off significantly after 1989 and the booking started to get really, really crappy after that whether it was a reaction or just Vince being Vince. Flair was presented as a kook with some pretender belt. As a kid, I found that whole thing confusing, because I didn't watch any wrestling but WWF, so I had no idea what was going on. I vaguely knew of Flair, but that was probably only because I lived in North Carolina.
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Jul 27, 2020 18:44
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It was also confusing because it seemed like he had a different belt every time he appeared. First it was the actual big gold belt which was then digitized, but that wasn't enough. Then he started carrying around a spare tag team championship belt, which was then also digitized, but again, that wasn't enough. If you were paying attention to WWF and had little to no experience with WCW, it seemed like this guy you had probably heard about as Hogan's equal parading around with a bunch of different belts, claming to be the real champion even though it seemed like a con.
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Jul 27, 2020 19:18
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Flair vs Vader from Starrcade might be my favourite Flair match. I just love Flair as a face taking on monsters. Recently watched his ECW title match with Big Show and it's so good.
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Jul 27, 2020 19:33
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Something that I started thinking about yesterday, but is there any particular reason why Scott Norton was IWGP Heavyweight Champion?
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Jul 27, 2020 19:38
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Vagabundo posted:Something that I started thinking about yesterday, but is there any particular reason why Scott Norton was IWGP Heavyweight Champion? He worked harder in Japan and they like huge jacked guys too
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Jul 27, 2020 19:43
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Vagabundo posted:Something that I started thinking about yesterday, but is there any particular reason why Scott Norton was IWGP Heavyweight Champion? strong style company push strong man
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Jul 27, 2020 19:46
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Pope Corky the IX posted:It was also confusing because it seemed like he had a different belt every time he appeared. First it was the actual big gold belt which was then digitized, but that wasn't enough. Then he started carrying around a spare tag team championship belt, which was then also digitized, but again, that wasn't enough. If you were paying attention to WWF and had little to no experience with WCW, it seemed like this guy you had probably heard about as Hogan's equal parading around with a bunch of different belts, claming to be the real champion even though it seemed like a con. It's kind of wild that they wouldn't have just paid for some custom belt to be made that looked vaguely like the big gold belt. I remember hearing that they tried making some kind of modification to it so they could still use it, but WCW still wanted to sue over it? I guess at the end of the day they didn't care enough about the live crowd because you can just digitize anything on TV, but every live crowd seeing Flair with a random tag title belt probably made for some confusion and disinterest in how he was meant to be presented.
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Jul 27, 2020 19:53
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Pope Corky the IX posted:It was also confusing because it seemed like he had a different belt every time he appeared. First it was the actual big gold belt which was then digitized, but that wasn't enough. Then he started carrying around a spare tag team championship belt, which was then also digitized, but again, that wasn't enough. If you were paying attention to WWF and had little to no experience with WCW, it seemed like this guy you had probably heard about as Hogan's equal parading around with a bunch of different belts, claming to be the real champion even though it seemed like a con. Interestingly enough, it recently came to light that Flair wasn't carrying around a spare tag belt. The commissioned a new belt to be made, and that was based off the design of the WWF Tag Team title. But it was a new belt. https://twitter.com/BeltFanDan/status/718458500221956100?s=20 As you can see, the words "Tag Team" are gone, replaced with three studs, and though it's hard to see, the belt doesn't have room for "Champions", only "Champion". Also the globe is black, and not blue on the tag belts. Ganso Bomb posted:It's kind of wild that they wouldn't have just paid for some custom belt to be made that looked vaguely like the big gold belt. I remember hearing that they tried making some kind of modification to it so they could still use it, but WCW still wanted to sue over it? I guess at the end of the day they didn't care enough about the live crowd because you can just digitize anything on TV, but every live crowd seeing Flair with a random tag title belt probably made for some confusion and disinterest in how he was meant to be presented. They did have one made to resemble the Big Gold, but it wasn't different enough from the WCW Big Gold to avoid further law suits. In the end, they just decided to drop the whole "Real World's Champion" thing Davros1 fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 19:58
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Davros1 posted:Interestingly enough, it recently came to light that Flair wasn't carrying around a spare tag belt. The commissioned a new belt to be made, and that was based off the design of the WWF Tag Team title. But it was a new belt. that's a nice looking belt
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Jul 27, 2020 20:01
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