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Hyper Crab Tank
Feb 10, 2014

The future of crustacean-based warfare


Yithian posted:

After Gio's 214K, you don't really need a fast button, you just need a button that's faster than her options at whatever range you're in. At max range, Gio's options are pretty much 5H, dash f.S, dash 5K and 2D. Your 6P will stuff everything but Gio's 2D, and at anything less than very max range of her 214K, your 5K should take your turn back fine also. Don't be afraid to use FD to push her out to a range you're more comfortable with, just don't be predictable about it.

I don't think FD helps - it pushes her just far enough out to make all my fast buttons not reach but she's still too plus for any of my slow long buttons to hit. I can honestly say I've never gotten 6P or 5K to work so permit me to be skeptical.

Yithian posted:

Keep in mind that this specific problem is one of Nagoriyuki's intended weaknesses, so this isn't some sort of personal failing if you're having a hard time with it.

Oh, it's a personal failing all right. I feel like the worst, most incompetent human being on earth after poo poo like this. I just don't know what to do about it.

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Glagha
Oct 13, 2008

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Hyper Crab Tank posted:

I don't think FD helps - it pushes her just far enough out to make all my fast buttons not reach but she's still too plus for any of my slow long buttons to hit. I can honestly say I've never gotten 6P or 5K to work so permit me to be skeptical.

You don't have to attack her right away. If she's out of your range and you're out of hers, either wait and counter what she does next (doing a delayed 5K or something right into her face) or just take the opening to get out. Jump in on her, or neutral jump when she's going to come in to attack again and come down on her. Don't just limit yourself to "what button can make contact with her here, she can technically beat all of them, therefore I am lost".

brainSnakes
Jul 11, 2011

I'd never save you in a million years


In Training posted:

You can always YRC to steal your turn

:captainpop:

I keep forgetting yellow exists like an absolute moron. Iím gonna start experimenting with it the next time I run into a Gio, thatís good advice.

Hyper Crab Tank
Feb 10, 2014

The future of crustacean-based warfare


brainSnakes posted:

I keep forgetting yellow exists like an absolute moron. Iím gonna start experimenting with it the next time I run into a Gio, thatís good advice.

One thing to remember about YRC: you have to make sure you're actually in blockstun. Don't do what I do and try to time it like it was some kind of IB thing, it will just end up in a counterhit instead.

brainSnakes
Jul 11, 2011

I'd never save you in a million years


Iíve never actually used it, so genuinely thank you for the heads up.

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



Hyper Crab Tank posted:

I mean I'd watched about maybe half of that, and the thing is, whenever Hotashi gets in the situation I'm describing (stuck in the corner), he either bursts out or gets smoked. Aside from a few instances of his opponent messing something up, that's pretty much all that happens.
Yeah that's pretty much how Strive works, you have to be ready to blow your big resources on defense to have any chance of getting out of stuff reliably, beyond that is a crapshoot. It's very key to play a strong and aggressive neutral from round start because otherwise you just immediately get pushed to the corner with no meter. And if you've got meter for defense then you should always find a place to use it if you can, because offense builds so much meter that just taking your turn back will pay for itself in about 3 seconds.

Hyper Crab Tank posted:

I don't think FD helps - it pushes her just far enough out to make all my fast buttons not reach but she's still too plus for any of my slow long buttons to hit. I can honestly say I've never gotten 6P or 5K to work so permit me to be skeptical.
Knowing specifically when to use FD and IB is pretty tough in this game because they just aren't very good in general. And like you can't just FD Gio's block strings, you have to FD the middle parts of the block string and then normal or IB the final move, to make sure you get the max pushback but the best recovery. Takes an annoyingly large amount of practice to deal with, for how stupidly good "push button" is in this game.


YRC is one of the most powerful tools in general in this game, you're at +10 on hit which means you can get started right into offense with no question most of the time.

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001






The real gio bullshit is that she has the only move that lasts longer than anjis twirl

RPATDO_LAMD
Mar 22, 2013



Real hurthling! posted:

6p the overhead or burn a little meter on fd to push her out

FDing gio seems not very effective from my experience as Goldlewis. She can do dashing buttons really quickly from pretty far away, so spending meter on fd doesn't really give you any more time/space than just blocking the wolf kick for free and going for a jump or something.
I'm probably missing some opportunities though, and it's probably better on characters who are more mobile than Golddick.

RevolverDivider
Nov 12, 2016



Donít FD a move thatís -4 youíre just giving up advantage

RPATDO_LAMD
Mar 22, 2013



I mean FDing the earlier buttons in her string of course. You can push her out of range before she can wolfkick but afaict it doesn't really enable any new defensive options to get out of the corner. Unless the Gio is just autopiloting and continues her string long enough for you to whiff-punish her, but the gios I've fought have mostly been friends who are way better than me and don't make that mistake.

Kongming
Aug 30, 2005



"Just 6P" is not a reliable answer on its own and is rather dismissive especially if the Gio is good at mixing up options it can be hard to react to 236K and 214S, especially after a c.S which is where she has the most options while still being plus. Like, yes, if she's doing stuff into 5H into special all the time then you can 6P more reliably, but what if she does 5H and then does nothing? 6Ps have long recovery if they whiff so you're inviting a juicy counterhit if you just try and throw it out all the time.

214K is -4 like previously stated, Gio's fastest buttons are her 5P and 2P which are 4 frames themselves but very stubby. That's an 8 frame gap on a move that probably can't even reach you. I recommend setting up a training dummy to do 214K and followup with different buttons. Block the 214K and see what you can do to hit her. At the very least, if you're cornered and you block it you might be able to super jump and airdash out.

Edit: Just saw you play Nagoriyuki so air dash isn't an option.

Kongming fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Sep 11, 2021

Jack Trades
Nov 30, 2010



Does Gio's 623H(S¿) beat Nago's jH? If not then he might still be able to sj out.

Yithian
Jun 19, 2005



I mean, yeah, that's the game. If there were a universal answer that beat anything that Gio tried to do then it would be bad design

Hyper Inferno
Jun 11, 2015


There's a gimmick that Gio can do after 214K which is just mashing 623S despite being negative. This is because most moves that will reach far enough to tag Gio after 214K hit upper-mid body which 623S will cleanly counter hit and then she gets a lot of damage off of it.

b_d
Sep 10, 2017



Jack Trades posted:

Does Gio's 623H(S¿) beat Nago's jH? If not then he might still be able to sj out.

gio 623S beats literally everything and is unpunishable.

i'm exaggerating a little bit but dustloop insists it's -15 on block yet i can only sometimes get a punish with 2P (as pot). and it beats all my moves if do anything other than block it.

edit: now that i'm thinking about it maybe i could backdash it and punish if i read it.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




Yithian posted:

I mean, yeah, that's the game. If there were a universal answer that beat anything that Gio tried to do then it would be bad design

okay but in my experience the opposite is true, where all things that I do as the characters I play as lose to any button Gio presses

b_d
Sep 10, 2017



b_d posted:

i'm exaggerating a little bit but dustloop insists it's -15 on block yet i can only sometimes get a punish with 2P (as pot). and it beats all my moves if do anything other than block it.

i go over to check if this has changed now and then. it's still up and the description even says "Even though it's highly punishable on a grounded opponent". it makes me feel crazy or stupid or like i'm playing a different version of the game. i want to bother people about this and make them demonstrate that it's -15 or fix the frame data but i'd have to go into a discord to do that so i'll have to settle for whining in here about it instead.

Kongming
Aug 30, 2005



b_d posted:

gio 623S beats literally everything and is unpunishable.

i'm exaggerating a little bit but dustloop insists it's -15 on block yet i can only sometimes get a punish with 2P (as pot). and it beats all my moves if do anything other than block it.

edit: now that i'm thinking about it maybe i could backdash it and punish if i read it.

The reason it beats a lot of moves is because the startup and first active frames have extreme low profile properties and is on par with 6P. The later active frames her hurtbox is a lot bigger.

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



b_d posted:

i go over to check if this has changed now and then. it's still up and the description even says "Even though it's highly punishable on a grounded opponent". it makes me feel crazy or stupid or like i'm playing a different version of the game. i want to bother people about this and make them demonstrate that it's -15 or fix the frame data but i'd have to go into a discord to do that so i'll have to settle for whining in here about it instead.

You can reliably punish it with f.S 5H even from max distance, even on FD. It's the best choice if you're unsure of how close you are.
It's also possible to punish from nearly max distance with KPB, which is the ideal choice. Likewise c.S if you are deep gives you big combos and is the easiest punish. 2K 2D also works, but the timing is tight because you need to catch her while her hurtbox is extended forward.

That is all assuming you block it on the ground of course, it's like +3000 if you air block it so you just gotta deal.

b_d
Sep 10, 2017



i swear when i play my friend my instinct is to punish it with 5K and he's able to block it 90% of the time, and that's 2 frames faster than f.S. i know the hurtboxes are weird but if he's blocking that means it connected? ok now that i look at it i see 5K is hella active so maybe it whiffs entirely until her recovery is over and she blocks it super meaty.

i'll try it out in the lab. later.

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



b_d posted:

i swear when i play my friend my instinct is to punish it with 5K and he's able to block it 90% of the time, and that's 2 frames faster than f.S. i know the hurtboxes are weird but if he's blocking that means it connected? ok now that i look at it i see 5K is hella active so maybe it whiffs entirely until her recovery is over and she blocks it super meaty.

i'll try it out in the lab. later.

Pot's 5K doesn't have a ton of forward range so it's not a great option to punish with, f.S is a slower move but the hitbox is massive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZnYhxbDiPg

poe meater
Feb 17, 2011


What are some of the recommended jams available in the jukebox?

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001






Birthday train

Zand
Jul 9, 2003

~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

poe meater posted:

What are some of the recommended jams available in the jukebox?

rift in the clouds, unidentified child, home sweet grave, drumhead pulsation, irony of chaste

b_d
Sep 10, 2017



czech out holy orders (be just or be dead) op.

b_d
Sep 10, 2017



thats half a joke because that's maybe the most well known song in the soundtrack but do check it out in case you haven't heard it. there's like 3 versions so make sure you pick the best one.

there's 2 versions of unidentified child as well

TGLT
Aug 14, 2009


Feel A Fear and Still In The Dark.

Why yes I did play Eddie extremely poorly back in the day, how did you know?

IronicDongz
Aug 18, 2013

there he goes

the part of Feel a Fear starting at like 1:40 :black101:

Thoom
Jan 12, 2004

LUIGI SMASH!

I've been practicing Kara Pot Buster and Kara Backwards MEGAFISTO. Sometimes it works and sometimes I just end up doing 6K, probably because I'm not drumming my fingers between K and P fast enough? I'm sure I'll get it eventually, but it got me wondering if there is any way I can turn my inconsistent execution in my favor. For example, if there's a character where inputting a sequence of buttons inconsistently leads to a high/low mixup, I could make myself totally unreadable. If I can't predict what I'm going to do, neither can my opponent!

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



poe meater posted:

What are some of the recommended jams available in the jukebox?

No Mercy, basically any Sol theme, Blue Water Blue Sky, Momentary Life once they add Baiken.

AnEndcat
Mar 20, 2013



Wait for them to add the tracks from characters not in the game and just always play 'Holy Orders?' .

Reiley
Dec 16, 2007




Play Shotgun&Head and Ride the Fire and Heavy Day

Jack Trades
Nov 30, 2010



Turn off in-game music and turn on Raven's Theme while you emo cry about Raven not being in the game.

Fly! Get High!
Die! Burn Out!

Veev
Oct 21, 2010

K is for kid.
A guy or gal just like you.
Dont be in such a hurry to grow up, since there's nothin' a kid can't do.


AnEndcat posted:

Wait for them to add the tracks from characters not in the game and just always play 'Holy Orders?' .

One of Robo-Ky's themes was just construction noises, add that.

RPATDO_LAMD
Mar 22, 2013



Thoom posted:

I've been practicing Kara Pot Buster and Kara Backwards MEGAFISTO. Sometimes it works and sometimes I just end up doing 6K, probably because I'm not drumming my fingers between K and P fast enough? I'm sure I'll get it eventually, but it got me wondering if there is any way I can turn my inconsistent execution in my favor. For example, if there's a character where inputting a sequence of buttons inconsistently leads to a high/low mixup, I could make myself totally unreadable. If I can't predict what I'm going to do, neither can my opponent!

A lot of characters in a lot of fighting games do this for left-right mixups. With the right setup you just jump over your enemy and, depending on the timing you press your jumpin button, you'll end up hitting either on their left or their right. So if your timing is inconsistent it'll be totally unpredictable. Milia should be able to do this for sure, but IDK who else has reliable setups that force the enemy to block long enough to give it a try. Goldlewis and his mine? But he usually has more rewarding mixups

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




The ultimate mixup is mixing up yourself, after all. Chaos reigns!

unimportantguy
Dec 25, 2012

Hey, Johnny, what's a "shitpost"?


I realized earlier today that I could follow up 2D with a dolphin. This led to me figuring out that I could do 2K > 2D as the opener to one of my preferred combos, making it 2K > 2D > [4]6S > RRC > cS > 2H [2]8H > 5K > Wallsplat > 6H, subbing out the 5K wallsplat part for an OTG 6H if I was too far from the wall. If nothing else, I figured I could do 3K > RRC and go from there. Once I'd spent a while in training hashing out the timing, I went back out into the tower.

I played 71 matches today, and I made it a point in every match to attempt the above combo any time I saw an opening. Not once did I manage to nail the full combo. Despite being fully, utterly confident in the timing in training, every time I got into it in an actual match I would either gently caress up the RC timing or accidentally hit 2S instead of cS, loving the whole thing up. I'm beginning to wonder if online latency is loving me up somehow, because it's not like I'm talking about any particularly difficult execution here.

On the other hand, while wildly flailing at my controller attempting to do a combo that I just couldn't execute for some reason, I somehow had a better than 50% win rate the day. Part of me wonders why I bother trying to get better when I get so many wins playing like poo poo. :negative:

Edit: I'll go ahead and toss my video for the day in here too, to demonstrate what I mean about getting wins playing like poo poo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BCE52qUliI

unimportantguy fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Sep 12, 2021

Hyper Crab Tank
Feb 10, 2014

The future of crustacean-based warfare


Not that experience level matters as such, but uh, is the scale completely different on the celestial floor? Feels like I spent weeks just crawling from 95 to 105, then two match wins in celestial trial ramped me right up to 118. Then after getting knocked back to 10, a fight against someone who was level 1700 (!?), I only got 100 exp again, so it's not just a difference in levels...

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


unimportantguy posted:

I played 71 matches today, and I made it a point in every match to attempt the above combo any time I saw an opening. Not once did I manage to nail the full combo. Despite being fully, utterly confident in the timing in training, every time I got into it in an actual match I would either gently caress up the RC timing or accidentally hit 2S instead of cS, loving the whole thing up. I'm beginning to wonder if online latency is loving me up somehow, because it's not like I'm talking about any particularly difficult execution here.

On the other hand, while wildly flailing at my controller attempting to do a combo that I just couldn't execute for some reason, I somehow had a better than 50% win rate the day. Part of me wonders why I bother trying to get better when I get so many wins playing like poo poo. :negative:

You play worse when trying to learn because you have to dedicate brain power to the actual learning. Arcade mode (or CPU training dummy) is a decent step between training mode and real matches because it takes away some focus from just doing the combo.

Hyper Crab Tank posted:

Not that experience level matters as such, but uh, is the scale completely different on the celestial floor? Feels like I spent weeks just crawling from 95 to 105, then two match wins in celestial trial ramped me right up to 118. Then after getting knocked back to 10, a fight against someone who was level 1700 (!?), I only got 100 exp again, so it's not just a difference in levels...

Yeah, you get massively more exp in celestial

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Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001






RPATDO_LAMD posted:

A lot of characters in a lot of fighting games do this for left-right mixups. With the right setup you just jump over your enemy and, depending on the timing you press your jumpin button, you'll end up hitting either on their left or their right. So if your timing is inconsistent it'll be totally unpredictable. Milia should be able to do this for sure, but IDK who else has reliable setups that force the enemy to block long enough to give it a try. Goldlewis and his mine? But he usually has more rewarding mixups

Jacko loves to cross over after putting a minion in front of me

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