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PoontifexMacksimus
Feb 14, 2012




Nessus posted:

e: So it's really more that people WANT to play Persona/Jojo, or at least something resembling those sources without being heavily authored by a guy with weird phobic opinions/a vampire from space, respectively

What was the -phobia in Persona?

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megane
Jun 20, 2008





You can also steal a cover from an angel (the God-Machine seems to be able to just fabricate them at will) or piece one together from scratch, both of which avoid having to unmake a human, but which are extremely dangerous and very slow respectively.

Nea
Feb 28, 2014

Funny Little Guy Aficionado.

PoontifexMacksimus posted:

What was the -phobia in Persona?

Persona is homophobic just, all over the place, constantly, and often kind of weird and sexist too.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Neopie posted:

Persona is homophobic just, all over the place, constantly, and often kind of weird and sexist too.

yeah, it's especially glaring in P5 where the themes would be against such things, but it's clear the director Hoshimoto still clung to homophobic and sexist jokes that other anime and video games had abandoned a decade ago.

Thankfully a different director will be helming the series.

Spector29
Nov 28, 2016



PoontifexMacksimus posted:

What was the -phobia in Persona?

You'd have to look at each game differently, since it's a gradient. A weird gradient, too, where they got better one game then worse the next.

Persona 4 had well written characters, including Kanji Tatsumi and Naoto Shirogane who, at the time you originally find them, read as gay and trans stories respectively. Things are more complicated than that (Naoto's story in particular shifts from being about gender identity to gender politics in the Japanese workplace) but they were generally regarded as being good takes on those kinds of stories.

Persona 5 (and 3, but there wasn't a precedent for them not doing this at the time) meanwhile had a beach episode where two obviously and stereotypically effeminate older men perv on the dudes in the party. This was not taken as well.

Mr. Maltose
Feb 16, 2011

The Guffless Girlverine


Kanji’s entire story arc is literally “Thank Christ, he’s Not Gay” and the less said about the trans misreading of the game the better so P4 still loving sucks. Pour one out to the last good Persona, 2.

Spector29
Nov 28, 2016



Mr. Maltose posted:

Kanji’s entire story arc is literally “Thank Christ, he’s Not Gay” and the less said about the trans misreading of the game the better so P4 still loving sucks. Pour one out to the last good Persona, 2.

Shame you don't like any of the newer ones, but that's okay.

It's too bad I'd have to bust out an emulator to ever play Persona 1 and 2, I'd be interested to try it sometime when I'm less busy and could devote time to a big RPG.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Demons can buy things from people. Often this is a really good deal when they buy your failing marriage or inoperable lung cancer and give you a new car or the ability to play the violin in return. Other times it's a harder sell like when they want to buy your medical degree, but they can offer some pretty good stuff for it.
The problem sets in when you decide to sell the whole enchilada. There's no apparent negative effects... until the Demon decides to cash in their marker and you abruptly stop existing.

PoontifexMacksimus
Feb 14, 2012




Robindaybird posted:

yeah, it's especially glaring in P5 where the themes would be against such things, but it's clear the director Hoshimoto still clung to homophobic and sexist jokes that other anime and video games had abandoned a decade ago.

Thankfully a different director will be helming the series.

Sucks! Especially since I had heard so much about how P5 was supposed to be about revolting against toxic social forces.

Neopie posted:

Persona is homophobic just, all over the place, constantly, and often kind of weird and sexist too.

I mean, the game is still part dating sim, right, with all the baggage that entails? Where, like in P4, stringing along a harem of every available partner at the same time is mechanically optimal play?

PoontifexMacksimus fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Sep 27, 2019

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





PoontifexMacksimus posted:

What was the -phobia in Persona?
Others' details were stronger, I would say the best way to summarize it is that the stories are often queerbait-y, and this seems to be linked to a particular director/creative leader at the studio that makes them, whose name escapes me - it has impacted several other games made by that studio.


PoontifexMacksimus posted:

I mean, the game is still part dating sim, right, with all the baggage that entails? Where, like in P4, stringing along a harem of every available partner at the same time is mechanically optimal play?
I never got to P5 but in P4 I think most of the social links were in fact basically social unless you decided to Bone Down, with the exception of one character who pushed for a formal date early-- which was part of their whole baggage.

TheNamedSavior
Mar 10, 2019



Spector29 posted:

Shame you don't like any of the newer ones, but that's okay.

Shame that they're bad games.


Robindaybird posted:

clung to homophobic and sexist jokes that other anime and video games had abandoned a decade ago.


Last I checked Japanese Anime and Video Games are still bigoted pieces of poo poo just as American media is with Female Characters existing only to serve the plots of the male characters (see the lovely homestuck epilogues) so you're a little wrong there.

Anyways, I'm thinking of doing some of those Elric RPGs that Chaosium made a while ago, it's a fantasy heartbreaker but there's quite a fair amount of interesting things that expand on the fairly vague lore of the original novels, just mentioning it so that I can look at myself when I don't do these and feel lovely.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




Other things Demons like to buy: histories of larceny or violence, because having a Cover who does those things is very useful to them.

Spector29
Nov 28, 2016



PoontifexMacksimus posted:

I mean, the game is still part dating sim, right, with all the baggage that entails? Where, like in P4, stringing along a harem of every available partner at the same time is mechanically optimal play?

If I recall, the P4 harem didn't actually give you an advantage over friendzoning all but one of them, but yes that's still a strategy. Not a great one, since the girls in P4G and P5 catch you on it during Valentines Day, but nothing comes of it since the game's over by that point.

wiegieman posted:

Other things Demons like to buy: histories of larceny or violence, because having a Cover who does those things is very useful to them.

The fact that Demon doesn't have a Morality stat in favor of a "Acting in Character" stat is what sold a lot of my players on the game. It's a good feature.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.



wiegieman posted:

Other things Demons like to buy: histories of larceny or violence, because having a Cover who does those things is very useful to them.
Also, since Demons care more about hiding from Angels than they do hiding from mortal consequences (mostly), if you have the cover of someone who behaves like a desperate guns-first psycho, you are A+ golden.

Spector29 posted:

The fact that Demon doesn't have a Morality stat in favor of a "Acting in Character" stat is what sold a lot of my players on the game. It's a good feature.
Demons are the "it's In Character for me to do that, so, it's ok" splat and I love them for it

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



wiegieman posted:

Other things Demons like to buy: histories of larceny or violence, because having a Cover who does those things is very useful to them.

And excellent for the person they're buying from too. That murder you've been trying to cover up for the last 30 years? Never happened.
Or rather it did, but it was someone else who dunnit and you're completely innocent now.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer



Buck Rogers XXVc: The 25th Century

Characters & Combat: Races, Part 2: Don't Forget to Pack a Spare Lamp in Case You Get Hungry


Delphs are a blend of humans with seal and dolphin traits, and were the first “major” gennies created, bred to tend Earth’s fish ranches and kelp beds. They run from 7 to 8 feet tall and from 200 to 400 pounds. Their skin is rubbery with a layer of blubber below, and comes in shades of blue, gray, or black. They live in clans, and have a few cities (basically raft flotillas with rooms above and below the water) but mostly just roam around, often alongside herds of whales and dolphins. They have +2 to Str, +1 to Con and Cha, and -2 to Tech, seeing as they live without much technology. Their big disadvantage, though, is their need to be in or near water; a Delph who is not fully immersed in water for at least ten minutes every eight hours loses a point of Strength, Dex, and Con, and continues losing points for every hour thereafter until they’re immersed (one hour will bring them back to full health) or a trait reaches 0 and they die. So yeah these are very limited as potential PCs, hence the kind of troupe play suggested at the chapter’s start. Delphs are fairly carefree and curious types, even playful.


Lowlanders. Remember how I said there were three types of Venusians? Well this is the fourth. Short and stocky, with many reptilian based characteristics, Lowlanders were bred to work with terraforming machinery on the Venusian surface, and so have been bred to endure a toxic high-pressure atmosphere. The problem is, as they quickly figured out, if they terraformed the land to be suitable for everyone else it would be very bad news for them. So they’ve rebelled, focusing instead on the agriculture (particularly substances which are used for valuable drugs.) They’re distrustful of outsiders, especially “Uplanders” (the non-Gennie Venusians), but content with their lives now. Lowlanders have +3 to Strength, +1 to Con and Tech, and -3 to Charisma. They have excellent saves against Heat and Poison but are vulnerable to Suffocation and Cold. A big disadvantage is that they need helmets and breathing packs to survive outside of the Lowlands’ atmosphere. This is slightly less of an imposition than the Delphs needing their own dunk tank, but it’s a bit dangerous- their breathing packs last about 72 hours before needing to be replenished, and if deprived for any reason they’ll suffocate in 10 minutes. The game notes that Lowlanders will need a very good reason to leave the surface of Venus, and so again they’re most likely going to be used as “guest” PCs.


Desert Runners were engineered in the early development of Mars, to look after herds of herbivorous animals that were planted on the Martian plateaus. They’re tall and covered in reddish/yellow fur, with big eyes and ears, and fangs mixed with normal human teeth. They’re a nomadic people, divided between several subtypes (identical but for different markings) and there’s a lot of competition within and between groups. They’re described as living similarly to the Plains Indians in the 18th-19th Centuries. Desert Runners get +2 to Strength and Dexterity, +1 to Con, and -1 to Cha. Most of them wear leather armor which gives them an AC of 8. A Desert Runner’s claws do 1d6+1 when used (they can retract them.) There’s a slight discrepancy between the write-up, which says they can’t tolerate extreme cold, and the actual saving throw chart where they have a +4 to saves vs. Cold but a -3 to saves vs. Heat. (Which makes a little more sense with Mars still being on the chilly side.) They too are used to a different atmosphere, needing special masks to lower the pressure of the air they take in when not on Mars. A normal, “high pressure” atmosphere will cause them to lose 2 points of Strength per round until they either die at 0 or put on their protective gear. However, there is no mention of said masks needing to be replenished as with the Lowlanders, though the book says a PC should have spares close at hand. Similarly, it’s rare for Desert Runners to leave the surface of Mars but they can be found elsewhere if they’ve got the gear.


Stormriders are the least human of the gennie species. They live all the way out on Jupiter, soaring through the upper atmosphere on long batlike wings and living in floating cities. Stormriders stand from 15-20 feet tall and weigh 800-1,200 lbs. They were designed using ray and shark genes, meant to be herders and terraformers, but live a very secretive life- it’s rare for anyone to venture out to the Outer Planets, and the Stormriders almost never leave Jupiter. If they do, again they need special breathing apparatus- this runs out every 10 hours, and the effect when deprived is the same as for Desert Runners. Their flying abilities only work in dense atmospheres as well. Stormriders have +2 to Strength and Constitution and -2 to Dexterity and Charisma. They really are guest-shot-only PCs, and it’s honestly kind of a shame.


Spacers are maybe not as weird as the Stormriders but very close. They were designed to be able to survive in space itself, without the need for protective gear; they have a special kind of algae in their digestive tract which converts thermal energy, water, and minerals to oxygen and nutrients. They’re sprayed with a thin aluminum coating at birth, and this coating not only protects from radiation, it can shift colors, with a Spacer forming dark spots to collect heat energy. They live out in asteroids and ring systems, gathering water and minerals for themselves and deposits of valuable materials to sell- they’re almost all loners by nature, occasionally banding together but not really developing any kind of organized civilization. They have +2 to Constitution and Tech, +1 to Dexterity, and -1 to Charisma; to speak at all with anyone (including each other) they need special translators. Spacers die of starvation if they go 48 hours without being exposed to sunlight or radiation, but even a simple lamp will be enough to “feed” them. Mechanically they’re perfectly viable as PCs, it’s just rare to see them leaving their solitary lives and joining groups of any kind.

Overall the variety is interesting- most players will want to be one of the “Human” types because they have the fewest drawbacks, and I do think they maybe go a little overboard with this- even if you want the authenticity of species bred to live in very hazardous environments, breathing apparatus could be made more reliable and not something you have to keep track of. The section closes out with a few notes on deciding age, personality, appropriate names etc. For gender they have the standard “we use ‘he’ for simplicity’s sake” thing but there’s no mechanical differences and they even mention that cross-gender play is okay, which is about as progressive as TSR were willing to get in 1990.

So that’s this big-rear end, scan-heavy section out of the way. Next up- Careers!

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Mildly entertained that this Buck Rogers RPG which isn't even supposed to specifically call out to weird transhumanism has what feels like a more interesting repetoire of near-humans than Eclipse Phase.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

PurpleXVI posted:

Mildly entertained that this Buck Rogers RPG which isn't even supposed to specifically call out to weird transhumanism has what feels like a more interesting repetoire of near-humans than Eclipse Phase.

Yeah, Transhumanism was still a pretty niche concept at the time, but that's basically what this is. What I also like is that it's also very space opera- you've got your lizard people, warrior cultures, small fuzzy critters, and outright Bug Eyed Monsters.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Maxwell Lord posted:

Yeah, Transhumanism was still a pretty niche concept at the time, but that's basically what this is. What I also like is that it's also very space opera- you've got your lizard people, warrior cultures, small fuzzy critters, and outright Bug Eyed Monsters.
I think this is a place where Eclipse Phase is limited by its vision of Hard Sci-Fi, very badly. Some of this is just the progression of science and technological knowledge, but some of it is also that Eclipse Phase plays by very specific rules that correspond to one particular version of technological progress, and which is taken as being the semi-objective nature of things. These include some ethical statements which are treated as physical laws, narratively if not literally.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Nessus posted:

I think this is a place where Eclipse Phase is limited by its vision of Hard Sci-Fi, very badly. Some of this is just the progression of science and technological knowledge,

I mean, no, honestly, no. EP is nowhere near anything I'd consider to be "hard" sci-fi, everything that's treated as "hard" sci-fi is mostly only to make it something the players won't interact with(physical interplanetary travel, for instance). The only thing that prevents it from being as laughable as Hc Svnt Dracones is that the political statements are slightly less laughable and that the setting actually has some things to do.

Rubix Squid
Apr 17, 2014


It certainly feels like it wants to be hard sci-fi though.

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



PurpleXVI posted:

Mildly entertained that this Buck Rogers RPG which isn't even supposed to specifically call out to weird transhumanism has what feels like a more interesting repetoire of near-humans than Eclipse Phase.

That aforementioned "No Humans Allowed" is literally a proto-Eclipse Phase bestiary of gennies. There's a slew of variants of the gennies already mentioned, such as the Barney Terrines, an alternate supersoldier take designed by a rival genetics branch that explains the origin of a space pirate metacharacter in XXVc, allowing you create your own Black Barney; the Terrine Mark II, which can best be described as Terrine Terminators, since they're human-looking infiltrators genetically engineered from the Terrine shark-bat-cat hybrid base; the Devastator, another RAM supersoldier project that's more like a weaponize Worker gennie, except they come off as bootleg WH40K Space Marines that degenerate rapidly (that's a feature, not a bug). You also get a "monster manual" of various nasties that staff RAM facilities, some hosed-up post-apocalypse poo poo on Earth like the oversized ratwurst and coyo-dogs, or something that someone threw together and dumped as a cheap bioweapon.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





PurpleXVI posted:

I mean, no, honestly, no. EP is nowhere near anything I'd consider to be "hard" sci-fi, everything that's treated as "hard" sci-fi is mostly only to make it something the players won't interact with(physical interplanetary travel, for instance). The only thing that prevents it from being as laughable as Hc Svnt Dracones is that the political statements are slightly less laughable and that the setting actually has some things to do.
I'm not disagreeing, but Eclipse Phase tries very hard to act like it's hard SF, which Buck Rogers does not. This means Buck Rogers doesn't have to spackle in any logical gaps with "uhhh nanomachines... AIs... titans... people will accept magic if it's the fruit of the super AI, I guess", they can just go about their fictional business.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


I want to know more about totally sweet rocket pistols. How directly are they just Gyrojets? Or are they actual rocket launcher pistols, like WH40K's bolters never dared to be?

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

I do have No Humans Allowed and I'll probably do that after the box set. But yeah it's a great bestiary (released fairly late in the line's life, with a lot of stuff reprinted from adventures and supplements.)

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



Night10194 posted:

I want to know more about totally sweet rocket pistols. How directly are they just Gyrojets? Or are they actual rocket launcher pistols, like WH40K's bolters never dared to be?

Rocket pistols and rifles are totally rocket launcher pistols, but there's a big catch that can be easily and totally exploited if you've ever played the SSI games!

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



Maxwell Lord posted:

I do have No Humans Allowed and I'll probably do that after the box set. But yeah it's a great bestiary (released fairly late in the line's life, with a lot of stuff reprinted from adventures and supplements.)

That was literally the first XXVc book I bought, even before the box set. I loved that book SO much that I mourn that I sold it for five bucks in desperation to a friend who has since moved to another city.

Snorb
Nov 19, 2010


Maxwell Lord posted:


Overall the variety is interesting- most players will want to be one of the “Human” types because they have the fewest drawbacks, and I do think they maybe go a little overboard with this- even if you want the authenticity of species bred to live in very hazardous environments, breathing apparatus could be made more reliable and not something you have to keep track of.

As an aside, Countdown to Doomsday limits PCs to the "human" races (Terrans, Mercurians, Venusians, Lunarians, and Martians), Martian Desert Runners, and tinkers. Desert Runners don't have to worry about breathing masks in-game, but I'm pretty sure that was a gameplay concession rather than a Gold Box engine limitation.

Oh, and rules as written, Stormriders are (technically) unable to be played as PCs despite the writeup. (No Humans Allowed fixes that handily.)

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Young Freud posted:

Rocket pistols and rifles are totally rocket launcher pistols, but there's a big catch that can be easily and totally exploited if you've ever played the SSI games!

A catch in the tabletop game, or the SSI game? Because I played the unholy Hell out of Countdown.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Maxwell Lord posted:

(released fairly late in the line's life, with a lot of stuff reprinted from adventures and supplements.)

Personally I don't mind that stuff because gently caress having to page through 50 different books and supplements for that one gun you saw in the back of that one book about Titan.

So books that pull everything into one tome are A-OK with me.

Selachian
Oct 9, 2012



Maxwell Lord posted:

Overall the variety is interesting- most players will want to be one of the “Human” types because they have the fewest drawbacks, and I do think they maybe go a little overboard with this- even if you want the authenticity of species bred to live in very hazardous environments, breathing apparatus could be made more reliable and not something you have to keep track of. The section closes out with a few notes on deciding age, personality, appropriate names etc. For gender they have the standard “we use ‘he’ for simplicity’s sake” thing but there’s no mechanical differences and they even mention that cross-gender play is okay, which is about as progressive as TSR were willing to get in 1990.

In my experience, Spacers were really popular. Their limitations (needing a vocoder to speak and needing light to survive) are minor, and never needing a spacesuit is quite handy.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


The Lone Badger posted:

And excellent for the person they're buying from too. That murder you've been trying to cover up for the last 30 years? Never happened.
Or rather it did, but it was someone else who dunnit and you're completely innocent now.

I wondet how convincing a demon must be to be able to buy abstract concepts like that.

Or are people just humoring a weirdo and then suddenly finding out that its all true?

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



JcDent posted:

I wondet how convincing a demon must be to be able to buy abstract concepts like that.

Or are people just humoring a weirdo and then suddenly finding out that its all true?

Anonymous Caller: "I know about what you did in 2004."
Startled Man: "Wait what, how did you get this nu..."
Caller: "If you want to make this go away, I'm going to put $50,000 in nonsequential bills in a briefcase under a bush in the park."
Startled Man: "...ok I'm reasonably certain one of us has got something backwards here."

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




JcDent posted:

I wondet how convincing a demon must be to be able to buy abstract concepts like that.

Or are people just humoring a weirdo and then suddenly finding out that its all true?

A pact has to be an actual, written contract of exchange. Demons can't outright lie in the contract, and it has to convey to the human the core purpose of the pact ("I will give you X for Y"), but it can otherwise be as manipulative and full of fine print and loopholes as you're willing to hope they won't notice. Soul pacts have to be signed in blood.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





JcDent posted:

I wondet how convincing a demon must be to be able to buy abstract concepts like that.

Or are people just humoring a weirdo and then suddenly finding out that its all true?
I think Demons can put up Resources dots for people so basically someone will literally buy your student debt and credentials from you. Or your lousy work history. Or your bad relationships that you regret. Cash money on the barrelhead.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




Nessus posted:

I think Demons can put up Resources dots for people so basically someone will literally buy your student debt and credentials from you. Or your lousy work history. Or your bad relationships that you regret. Cash money on the barrelhead.

Demons can grant basically any Merit, but "external" stuff like Resources is harder and requires at least two separate pacts to get really crazy, unless the person is already doing pretty well.

As an aside, there's an off-hand mention of being able to boost Attributes, but the only core traits there are mechanics for are Merits and Skills.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





That Old Tree posted:

Demons can grant basically any Merit, but "external" stuff like Resources is harder and requires at least two separate pacts to get really crazy, unless the person is already doing pretty well.

As an aside, there's an off-hand mention of being able to boost Attributes, but the only core traits there are mechanics for are Merits and Skills.
Even so! "I would like to buy your regrettable college years, and in exchange you will at least be able to pay it off with money leftover, OR POSSIBLY, I am also accepting your debts" - this is a message that would probably get some replies on craigslist.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




Nessus posted:

Even so! "I would like to buy your regrettable college years, and in exchange you will at least be able to pay it off with money leftover, OR POSSIBLY, I am also accepting your debts" - this is a message that would probably get some replies on craigslist.

Oh there are definitely enough flippant or weird people around to collect a fair amount of contracts based solely on "lol why not?"

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



And once you've concluded one pact with them, preferably one that offered them a lot for very little, you're in an excellent position to start buying other things.

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JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


The Lone Badger posted:

And once you've concluded one pact with them, preferably one that offered them a lot for very little, you're in an excellent position to start buying other things.

How do you replenish your supply of "a lot"?

Anyways, love the XXVc write-up, it feels inspiring and fun. Unlike Eclipse Phase.

The stormriders is a great name and a great visual!

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