Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

PurpleXVI posted:

what are the consequences if the March gets stopped?

My impression is that they would try again. Which would be very annoying for many people.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ronwayne
Nov 20, 2007

That warm and fuzzy feeling.
Wait, what's the local birds and bees equivalent, do modrons come from a source other than modrons? Because it was implied all the modrons were there, and if those get wiped, uh?

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Ronwayne posted:

Wait, what's the local birds and bees equivalent, do modrons come from a source other than modrons? Because it was implied all the modrons were there, and if those get wiped, uh?

Modrons are just sort of naturally pooped out by Mechanus when one of them dies. The only way to permanently lower the number of "loyal" modrons, is when one of them goes rogue, and keeps its lifeforce away from the communal pool, which is part of why they're so aggressively hunted by the other modrons, since the only way to reclaim that lifeforce is to kill the rogue modron.

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case


Ronwayne posted:

Wait, what's the local birds and bees equivalent, do modrons come from a source other than modrons? Because it was implied all the modrons were there, and if those get wiped, uh?

Not even close to all the modrons go on the March. It’s a few thousand at the start, out of hundreds of thousands/millions

And when a modron dies, another modron is promoted to its spot, another to its spot etc. then a pool in Regulus, the modron realm, spits out a new monodrone

DAD LOST MY IPOD fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Dec 19, 2019

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you
Indeed as the book shows even Primus dying has no effect on the modrons in the long term, as a new one will quickly replace it.

Tylana
May 5, 2011

Pillbug
I assume promotion here is basically a transformation with the similar increase in abilities?

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Tylana posted:

I assume promotion here is basically a transformation with the similar increase in abilities?

Yes and you also get all the required knowledge of how to do your role correctly, and a bunch of other stuff. Tons of memories are inherited, and the personality is basically the same. There is functionally no difference, between the old Primus and the new one for example, who would know basically everything the old Primus knew.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

feedmegin posted:

Let me tell u about the Mongols

I did not see a single encounter in the module involve 5d6 dragonmen horse archers :colbert:

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

JcDent posted:

I did not see a single encounter in the module involve 5d6 dragonmen horse archers :colbert:

I really want to inflict pegasus archers on someone in D&D. Pretty sure you can outrange almost all spells with a longbow.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

wdarkk posted:

I really want to inflict pegasus archers on someone in D&D. Pretty sure you can outrange almost all spells with a longbow.

Probably. Though I doubt you could use a longbow on a pegusus. You might be able to use a short bow or horse bow, though. That said, figure the folks most likely to be riding pegasi will be elves - and many elves can cast spells back what with Fighter/Mages being very much a thing for them.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

wdarkk posted:

I really want to inflict pegasus archers on someone in D&D. Pretty sure you can outrange almost all spells with a longbow.

THE SKY MONGOLS ARE COMING! :supaburn:

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!
Chapter 6: Character Creation, pt. 3



Degenesis Rebirth
Katharsys
Chapter 6: Character Creation


Cults

The thing Degenesis is crazy about! Cults! Your character belongs to a Cult, either by birth or by choice.

quote:

The Character starts at the bottom of the food chain. As a Spitalian, he starts as a Recruit. As a Chronicler, he starts as a Bit. His Skills—and his background (explained later in this chapter)—decide if he rises in rank and into which one. Through clever choice of Attributes and Skills, Characters can rise through the first two levels during Character creation.

Only two ranks? We'll see about that!

Still, the implication is there that you may end up with only a single rank, which is, as you all remember, essentially “child labor under the supervision of a Cult-appropriate Fagin.”

Rising ranks in a Cult allows you to earn Cult Potentials as well as Cult gear.

Clanners

So you know how I said that there's no peasant-peasant Cult? Well, this side section says that Clanners are the “the populace, the farmers, gatherers and hunters.” Which is... interesting when you always see uppity Clanners outlined as one of the dangers to civilization.

Anyways, Clanners! The side section says that they're not a homogenous group; you should choose your clan from Chapter 10 or make up your own (the rank guide later on should give you hints on how to do that). The Clanner statline here represents your regular caveman; if your dudes are more tech adept (like the Enemoi, whatever they are), you might have to ask the GM to give you a different set of skills.

Six Backgrounds

These aren't backgrounds as you'd understand it. Rather, they're like Cult resources that determine how high and mighty you are. There's 6 of them, and like everything else in the game, they're ranked from 0 to 6. You get 4 points to raise them at chargen – at this point no Background can go over 3. Unlike skills and attributes, Backgrounds are not raised with XP; you'll have to work with your Cult to increase them (so it's either roleplaying or Mother-May-I, depending on how you viewsuch things).

Allies

An Allies score means having friends in the Cult. They're basically your real buddies who don't care about your social standing.

Use: when you meet members of your Cult, you can recruit them. Allies score determines number and rank of recruits. 5-6 means you can pull some high-level help.

Gain/Loss: Depends on characters ethical/moral disposition. If you betray your morals/cult, if you don't help your allies when they ask you, you will be abandoned.

Authority

Authority measures how highly your char is regarded in the Cult. This is your social standing.

Use: making Cult members fall in line in social conflicts or just getting them to do poo poo.

quote:

Most often, it is used in conjunction with CHA+Leadership, CHA+Negotiation, and PSY+Domination.

Gain/Loss: Never. Stop. Husslin. Authority only retains its level if you're constantly working on proving it. It rises as you compete with other ranking members. Welcome back to high-school!

Renown

You're known for being the paragon of your Cult's values. I guess that means that you're the biggest rear end in a top hat if you're an Apocalyptic.

Use: if you're a high renown character, people want to “break their bread with them” and offer aid. Somewhat like passive authority, I guess.

Gain/Loss: the book itself states that you don't have hustle like with the Authority score. People already idealize you. You just have to keep on the straight and narrow.

Resources

How willing your Cult is to give you the good Cult poo poo.

Use: We're told that in Chapter 8, we'll notice that each Cult item has a price and Resource cost. Price only applies when buying stuff; Resource means that you can take it from your Cult stache. Don't know how that works for Scrappers. Maybe you know the best hobo hiding spots.

quote:

If the Character’s Resource score is equal to the object’s value, the same is true. However, the Character’s Resources are reduced by 1.

I guess this means that taking anything under the Resource score doesn't impact it.

Oh, an Resource 5-6 items are only available at the Cult HQ. Can't wait to find out what's considered to be the Shitbird or Clanner central!

Gain/Loss: you gain them by fulfilling missions and tasks that helps the Cult. You lose it if you become known for wasting it (like taking a bunch of things below your Resources value to sell).

Secrets

How well-versed are you in the edgy bullshit from the first book?

quote:

The Anubian rites are only mumbo-jumbo to hide the truth from the eyes of the villagers. What kind of influence would they hold if everyone knew that?

Under the Cathedral, manuscripts detailing every step of Rebus, the Cult’s founder, are stored. They permit for other interpretations than the official ones lived these days.

Use: you can finally tell what's the motivation behind the orders of your superiors – finally, you can really know if Iraq was invaded for oil! You also know about hidden/abandoned facilities (bonus on INS+Orienteering – but I guess only when you're looking for those). You also get bonus on INT+Legends roll to impress Paler ladies with your cryptic hints about MEMETICS as you know about your Cult’s secrets (such as the Scrapper secret of faaart). It also emcompases the knowledge of shady dealings of corrupt cultists.

quote:

A high Secrets score reveals shortcuts and promises additional information during the game.

Gain/Loss: you gain secrets from dying mentors and such. You may get waxed if you appear dangerous in your knowledge. And you may lose points of secrets if you keep telling everyone about Anubian religion being false or whatever.

Network

Your contacts outside of your own/in other Cults

Use: Information gathering?

Gain/Loss: Be a good person, help your friends and they'll help you. Be a bastard and shithead and people will not like you anymore.

Assigning Points

quote:

Now that all bonuses are clear, the player can assign points to Attributes and Skills and must decide between Primal or Focus and between Faith or Willpower.

Well, that's a lot clearer now!

Potentials

Potentials, separated into Cult and general, are your fancy super powers, rule-breaking abilities and such. Each has three levels. You start with 1 at Level 1.

Ranks

Time to climb the corporate ladder! You always start at Rank I and each cult only has one of those (Jehammedans and Apocalyptics are singled out as the only ones to have different choices due to cultural/sex reasons).

Ranks have prerequisites in backgrounds and Skills (well, the Attribute+Skill score). You don't lose Rank if you experience Skill loss. Rank bonuses come in the shape of duties (doubtful bonus), rights and Cult equipment (which you can keep).

You have to follow the Rank tree, so no grabbing Rank from other branches, skipping ranks and so on. Special rules are usually only applicable to the current rank.

So this solves the issue of “how are you gonna work a Spitalian recruit, literally a dumb teen, into the game?” I raised earlier: unless you screwed chargen terribly bad, you should be able to get three ranks at the word go.

Next time: I’ll re-read the chargen rules so that we could see how far we can take a starting Spitalian!

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable

What are players supposed to do in Degenesis? I keep getting the impression that every faction/class hates each other.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Green Intern posted:

What are players supposed to do in Degenesis? I keep getting the impression that every faction/class hates each other.

We're gonna have more minor factions appear in the NPC section later down the line, but fighting Primer-stuff is probably #1 goal.

I think.

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

wdarkk posted:

I really want to inflict pegasus archers on someone in D&D. Pretty sure you can outrange almost all spells with a longbow.

Composite Longbow has a maximum range of 1100 feet (110 range increment, 10 range increments), but suffer a -20 penalty to hit from there. The longest non-unlimited range spells are Long range, which is 400 feet + 40/level. These spells are pretty commonly available, with one or two per level that a player could grab. In order to match the 1000 range limit on a longbow, you'd need to be level 18 though, at which point flight becomes trivially accessible.

If you follow the more reasonable restriction that you can only use a shortbow on horseback, that's a maximum range of 700 (70 range increment on composite shortbow), which still requires level 8. More reasonable, but again Fly is available at level 5

Gun Jam
Apr 11, 2015

Kaza42 posted:

Composite Longbow has a maximum range of 1100 feet (110 range increment, 10 range increments), but suffer a -20 penalty to hit from there. The longest non-unlimited range spells are Long range, which is 400 feet + 40/level. These spells are pretty commonly available, with one or two per level that a player could grab. In order to match the 1000 range limit on a longbow, you'd need to be level 18 though, at which point flight becomes trivially accessible.

If you follow the more reasonable restriction that you can only use a shortbow on horseback, that's a maximum range of 700 (70 range increment on composite shortbow), which still requires level 8. More reasonable, but again Fly is available at level 5

Thing is, if your'e going to try and take these only nat 20 shots, you'll run out of ammo before your enemies run out of HP.
So, if you are trying to actually hit something...depends on our assumptions:
But let's say we are shooting at an average person (AC 10. Also, they forgot about total defence action) - we got a level 1 fighter, 14 dex and a masterwork bow (sounds reasonable for a mook - or even a good one). Equals +4 to-hit. Say we're aiming at one hit outta four - this gives us a -9 to-hit allowed, so...
about 400-500 feet away? Still in fireball range.
(I feel I either forgot something about the calculation, or made a wrong assumption.)

grassy gnoll
Aug 27, 2006

The pawsting business is tough work.

I Got to Say It, and It’s Hard for Me

https://stephenwoodgames.com/
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/286012/Wild-Lands

Wild Lands is a standalone system released in August of 2019 by Stephen Wood Games, and it will shock you to learn that the creator is a guy named Stephen Wood. I’m using creator specifically here because I needed a sufficiently encompassing word - Wood did the game design, setting, layout, and illustration for the whole book.

Wood himself is an illustrator by trade, with a master’s degree in the field and a good deal of lecturing on the subject under his belt. It shows, and Wild Lands is lavishly illustrated - I think I counted maybe a two page gap between illustrations in the whole book.

The illustrations are actually how I stumbled onto the game. I use Twitter as an art RSS feed, and some of the pre-press sketches were circulating around. I figured they were the typical idle “I’d love to make a game of this someday” scribblings. But no, there was an actual game with an upcoming release date attached to them. So, already we’re in the top 99% of illustrators for actually delivering on a product made in someone’s spare time. I can’t count the number of times I’ve fallen into that particular pit of slack-rear end myself.

I feel like Wood and I come from pretty similar backgrounds. This is a labor of love by someone who grew up with the same nerdy stuff I did, playing the same games I did, from someone trained as an illustrator, it’s gorgeous to look at, it aims for a lot of the goals I like to see in an RPG, and it’s one of the heartbreaker-iest things I’ve ever laid eyes on.


This is just dropped as a page filler. This’d be a full-page spread in another game.

Wild Lands is a rules-light RPG designed for quick pick up and play, where you take on the role of a Redwall-esque Critter and go out adventuring, in a vaguely fantastical setting. Wild Lands is also a fiddly dungeon crawler with randomly-generated loot and stats that make up your mechanical ability to interact with the world, an equipment list that echos Monster Hunter titles, and a bevy of Pathfinderian subsystems. Wild Lands is, in addition, a beautiful object of art that is poorly laid out as a teaching or a reference document.

This game, you guys. This game.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.
Well everything about that intro sounded interesting!

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Kaza42 posted:

Composite Longbow has a maximum range of 1100 feet (110 range increment, 10 range increments), but suffer a -20 penalty to hit from there. The longest non-unlimited range spells are Long range, which is 400 feet + 40/level. These spells are pretty commonly available, with one or two per level that a player could grab. In order to match the 1000 range limit on a longbow, you'd need to be level 18 though, at which point flight becomes trivially accessible.

If you follow the more reasonable restriction that you can only use a shortbow on horseback, that's a maximum range of 700 (70 range increment on composite shortbow), which still requires level 8. More reasonable, but again Fly is available at level 5

Ah, for some reason I remembered the range increment as 200 feet.

Nemo2342
Nov 25, 2007

Have A Day




Nap Ghost

Gun Jam posted:

Thing is, if your'e going to try and take these only nat 20 shots, you'll run out of ammo before your enemies run out of HP.
So, if you are trying to actually hit something...depends on our assumptions:
But let's say we are shooting at an average person (AC 10. Also, they forgot about total defence action) - we got a level 1 fighter, 14 dex and a masterwork bow (sounds reasonable for a mook - or even a good one). Equals +4 to-hit. Say we're aiming at one hit outta four - this gives us a -9 to-hit allowed, so...
about 400-500 feet away? Still in fireball range.
(I feel I either forgot something about the calculation, or made a wrong assumption.)

This is reminding me a lot of the old "Seven Ways to Kill the Tarrasque" file.

Leraika
Jun 14, 2015

Luckily, I *did* save your old avatar. Fucked around and found out indeed.
I'm definitely interested in Wild Lands just from the premise and one illustration.

Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.

Kaza42 posted:

Composite Longbow has a maximum range of 1100 feet (110 range increment, 10 range increments), but suffer a -20 penalty to hit from there. The longest non-unlimited range spells are Long range, which is 400 feet + 40/level. These spells are pretty commonly available, with one or two per level that a player could grab. In order to match the 1000 range limit on a longbow, you'd need to be level 18 though, at which point flight becomes trivially accessible.

If you follow the more reasonable restriction that you can only use a shortbow on horseback, that's a maximum range of 700 (70 range increment on composite shortbow), which still requires level 8. More reasonable, but again Fly is available at level 5

Of course neither of these really seem to reflect the Mongolian composite bows. Per Wikipedia, back in the day of ol' Temujin, there were at least some archers hitting targets at distances somewhere between 500 yards and 500 meters, so like 1000-1500 feet. Since those are results they bragged about, they're presumably impressive even to the Mongols, but not unbelievably outrageous, so if we're going for the theoretical pegasus Khan, you'd presumably have a new exotic weapon representing their better bows that had range increments of 150-200ish, depending on how high level we think those elite keshiks were.

None of that addresses that even mid-level wizards can fly, of course, but if you're talking about the earlier editions of D&D where taking damage ruined concentration, it might be hard for the wizard to get a spell off in the face of the arrows.

Once you get to 3.x where you can make easy concentration checks and Stoneskin it up, of course, there's still not a lot of hope.

Poil
Mar 17, 2007

Wouldn't arrows aimed down go a lot further, and arrows going up shorter?

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.
There is nothing more D&D than 'Well, if we look at the historical boasts of the mongols we can maybe give the fighter a new weapon to spend a prof on for a specialized task that rarely comes up' against 'But of course, the wizard can fly.'

Like I know it's just people chatting and this has been said a million times, but it's such a perfect encapsulation of the two entirely different games being played.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

Ultiville posted:

Of course neither of these really seem to reflect the Mongolian composite bows. Per Wikipedia, back in the day of ol' Temujin, there were at least some archers hitting targets at distances somewhere between 500 yards and 500 meters, so like 1000-1500 feet. Since those are results they bragged about, they're presumably impressive even to the Mongols, but not unbelievably outrageous, so if we're going for the theoretical pegasus Khan, you'd presumably have a new exotic weapon representing their better bows that had range increments of 150-200ish, depending on how high level we think those elite keshiks were.

None of that addresses that even mid-level wizards can fly, of course, but if you're talking about the earlier editions of D&D where taking damage ruined concentration, it might be hard for the wizard to get a spell off in the face of the arrows.

Once you get to 3.x where you can make easy concentration checks and Stoneskin it up, of course, there's still not a lot of hope.

Mid-level wizards can also cast "Protection from Normal Missiles." And are often with Fighters/Rangers/etc who also have bows, and ground-based cover/concealment. And figure Pegasi are probably easier targets to hit than their riders, but falling damage is kind of a bitch, too.

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

Ultiville posted:

Of course neither of these really seem to reflect the Mongolian composite bows. Per Wikipedia, back in the day of ol' Temujin, there were at least some archers hitting targets at distances somewhere between 500 yards and 500 meters, so like 1000-1500 feet. Since those are results they bragged about, they're presumably impressive even to the Mongols, but not unbelievably outrageous, so if we're going for the theoretical pegasus Khan, you'd presumably have a new exotic weapon representing their better bows that had range increments of 150-200ish, depending on how high level we think those elite keshiks were.

None of that addresses that even mid-level wizards can fly, of course, but if you're talking about the earlier editions of D&D where taking damage ruined concentration, it might be hard for the wizard to get a spell off in the face of the arrows.

Once you get to 3.x where you can make easy concentration checks and Stoneskin it up, of course, there's still not a lot of hope.

Don't worry, there's a feat that increases the range increment of non-thrown weapons by 50%, with only one prerequisite! (thrown by 100%). So with two feats, your composite longbow has a maximum range of 1650 feet. This is easily accomplished by a level 1 fighter, who is still useless due to the -20 penalty from that long of range. What's weird though, is that Far Shot (the range feat) requires Point Blank Shot. You'd think those were very different abilities

And of course, a 5th level wizard can cast Fly

Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.

Night10194 posted:

There is nothing more D&D than 'Well, if we look at the historical boasts of the mongols we can maybe give the fighter a new weapon to spend a prof on for a specialized task that rarely comes up' against 'But of course, the wizard can fly.'

Like I know it's just people chatting and this has been said a million times, but it's such a perfect encapsulation of the two entirely different games being played.

Oh yeah 100%, I just think keshiks are super cool and felt like the numbers were underselling them. PvP in general isn't a great way to talk about D&D balance in any case, since the PC classes are not generally supposed to be getting in duels, and I've never had that kind of long-ranged battle show up in gameplay.

That said, it still shows off how absurd the whole thing is. You compare wizard spell ranges, and they compare really favorably to even the long range bands of the ranged weapons, without any dropoff in effectiveness. Meanwhile you're talking about crippling penalties to hit for the weapons, and less damage even if they do. Even if you can say "well theoretically this mechanic could let a whole army of pegasus fighters take down a 6th level wizard," that doesn't change that you'd never have a credible discussion about how a wizard force could ever deal with the dire threat posed by a mid-level fighter.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.
And no-one ever makes the connection that you're meant to be the guys the mongols are boasting about in D&D because it's always stuck in that weird 'mud peasants for some, Exalted for others' middle space where it doesn't know what it is.

Which is then aided by the fact that it has two entirely different and separate resolution mechanics. D&D has the issue of never realizing there was any need to standardize magic and non-magic at all (outside of 4th, but I don't have personal experience with 4th because I was mostly out of D&D when it was popular). So it's stuck with the mindset that you have to attach some kind of limitation or drawback to anything cool that is done without magic (magic having the inbuilt 'you have X charges of this' one, which is insufficient but was accepted as enough of a limiter) and the only thing it could think of was 'massive penalties' or 'Buy with extremely precious and limited feat slots'.

90s Cringe Rock
Nov 29, 2006
:gay:
It's time to bring back Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit references. You can't stop me. I cast protection from normal mods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

Night10194 posted:

And no-one ever makes the connection that you're meant to be the guys the mongols are boasting about in D&D because it's always stuck in that weird 'mud peasants for some, Exalted for others' middle space where it doesn't know what it is.

Which is then aided by the fact that it has two entirely different and separate resolution mechanics. D&D has the issue of never realizing there was any need to standardize magic and non-magic at all (outside of 4th, but I don't have personal experience with 4th because I was mostly out of D&D when it was popular). So it's stuck with the mindset that you have to attach some kind of limitation or drawback to anything cool that is done without magic (magic having the inbuilt 'you have X charges of this' one, which is insufficient but was accepted as enough of a limiter) and the only thing it could think of was 'massive penalties' or 'Buy with extremely precious and limited feat slots'.

And the most frustrating part of it is that they had it working so much better in 1e and 2e. Magic-Users were actually not automatically better than Fighters (everyone was still better than rogues), and Fighters had a bunch of automatic advantages to show off how incredibly good they were at fighting. It was, ironically, the attempt to standardize things that messed it up. Spell DCs and Fort/Ref/Will was the best thing to ever happen to wizards.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.
Also just the fact that magic is one-step. Cast spell, no roll, they make the save. Compare to something like WHFRP, where A: Your caster cannot affect the saving throw the target is making by having high stats/taking incentivized talents like in 3.PF and B: They have to cast the spell (often at 40-60% odds to succeed) and THEN have someone with probably 40-60% odds to save fail a save if they're doing something really nasty like trying to stun somebody. The extra potential point of failure makes those actions much less likely to hit home.

E: Though more combat-heavy games should recognize that stuns are usually loving lethal and also really un-fun to deal with. Stunning/controlling NPCs and enemies (especially mooks) is fine, knocking one player out of the turn order entirely kind of sucks.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Dec 19, 2019

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!
WHFB wizards also deal with Perils!

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

JcDent posted:

WHFB wizards also deal with Perils!

Perils really isn't a serious issue in 2e, at least. The Witch in my current game is throwing around 2-3 Mag w/Dark Magic (when necessary) spells all the time and the worst she's done is spoil the party's on-hand food supplies once because your actual chances of hitting triples or more are very low.

Mind she did that in the middle of the Chaos Wastes and trying to find more food got them in trouble, but still. Even the Witch genuinely playing with fire setting wise has very low chances of loving everyone.

The only time I've ever seen someone actually kill themselves with Perils was a Tzeentch Daemon Prince trying to use their one 'instant kill, sent mortal to the Realm of Chaos' spell. And accidentally banishing himself. It was hilarious.

Big Mad Drongo
Nov 10, 2006

Kaza42 posted:

And the most frustrating part of it is that they had it working so much better in 1e and 2e. Magic-Users were actually not automatically better than Fighters (everyone was still better than rogues), and Fighters had a bunch of automatic advantages to show off how incredibly good they were at fighting. It was, ironically, the attempt to standardize things that messed it up. Spell DCs and Fort/Ref/Will was the best thing to ever happen to wizards.

I honestly think Fort/Ref/Will was a step in the right direction (namely, paring down overly complicated mechanics), they just screwed up the math. To start with, Fighters and fightery monsters should still have had high saves across the board to represent their balls of steel, while Wizards should have terrible saves because they are horrible nerds.

Just because you work magic good doesn't mean you have an iron will, but being willing to charge several tons of scales and fire with just a sword probably does.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Night10194 posted:

Also just the fact that magic is one-step. Cast spell, no roll, they make the save. Compare to something like WHFRP, where A: Your caster cannot affect the saving throw the target is making by having high stats/taking incentivized talents like in 3.PF and B: They have to cast the spell (often at 40-60% odds to succeed) and THEN have someone with probably 40-60% odds to save fail a save if they're doing something really nasty like trying to stun somebody. The extra potential point of failure makes those actions much less likely to hit home.

You're basically describing 1E/2E AD&D here. :v: True wizard supremacy is a 3E artifact. At higher levels, against tougher enemies, mages are unlikely to have more than a 25 to 50% chance of the target failing their save.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
You guys are crazy. Literally nothing on the player-facing side of a tactical combat TRPG should have as low as a 50% chance to succeed.

The big brain move wouldn't have been giving wizards to-hit rolls, it would have been removing them from fighters. :getin:

Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

You guys are crazy. Literally nothing on the player-facing side of a tactical combat TRPG should have as low as a 50% chance to succeed.

The big brain move wouldn't have been giving wizards to-hit rolls, it would have been removing them from fighters. :getin:

Nah, I'm with you on this. Like, making it so that fighters have more general resistance to everything, including wizard nonsense, makes lots of sense, but the idea that this should take the form of "your stuff frequently just doesn't work" is one of the worst legacies of D&D. There are lots of ways to have variance that aren't...that.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Yeah, nothing sucks more than missing entirely. I have seen people have paroxysms of rage over "whiffing" in online RPG spaces. A chance of failure unless modified on some super move, that's one thing.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Nessus posted:

Yeah, nothing sucks more than missing entirely. I have seen people have paroxysms of rage over "whiffing" in online RPG spaces. A chance of failure unless modified on some super move, that's one thing.

Personally, I dislike having more than a 75% chance of loving up when I do something that's plain generic for my character. But that's predicated on the ability attack being binary, either win or lose, do thing or do nothing.

A lot of wizard spells have halved or partial effects even if the target sticks the save, or affect multiple targets so it's entirely possible some of them may make it, or they've got powers that there are no saves against, and in a fight with enemies of varied power levels, you might be able to one-shot a bunch of the mooks, clearing the path for the fighters to the big guy. Or you could focus on buffing the fighters if you know these particular targets are highly magic resistant, etc. Or even focus on some terrain-affecting spells that, since they don't actually target an enemy directly, don't get a save, but could still flip the fight by blocking off reinforcements or retreat or something else.

It'd be valid critique if the save-or-die spell was the only option the mage had.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.
What I was more getting at is that anything that is so devastating it needs to have low odds of success should either be shifted to an entirely player-on-enemy move or removed from the game. As in, if it's 'getting stunned for multiple turns is so unfun and so bad that it's not acceptable to use without 80% odds it misses' then getting stunned like that is not something abilities should be doing.

Hard-control effects in RPGs usually suck to deal with and are extremely hard to balance.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply