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That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




Yeah SAGA was artsy with matte minimalist covers on at least some of the books, in square format.

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Cooked Auto
Aug 4, 2007

If you will not serve in combat, you will serve on the firing line!




Then it wasn't that edition because the books looked like RPG books. :v: I think the first edition had Darth Vader on the cover so it probably was the edition in question.

Tylana
May 5, 2011



Pillbug

Sadly the Wounds/Vitality/LifePoints or whatever system, especially with the base damage of Star Wars energy weapons basically meant every player character was going to be one shot by an enemy crit before like level 10 IIRC.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012






Buglord

Tylana posted:

Sadly the Wounds/Vitality/LifePoints or whatever system, especially with the base damage of Star Wars energy weapons basically meant every player character was going to be one shot by an enemy crit before like level 10 IIRC.
Yes, that's a decent (flawed, but decent) rule for a grittier game but absolutely non-thematic for a cinematic game like Star Wars should be.

Tibalt
May 14, 2017

What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee


Tylana posted:

Sadly the Wounds/Vitality/LifePoints or whatever system, especially with the base damage of Star Wars energy weapons basically meant every player character was going to be one shot by an enemy crit before like level 10 IIRC.
I thought that was the point - HP represent plot armor, but an actual hit from a lucky stormtrooper still kills you until you've become a real badass.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




dwarf74 posted:

Yes, that's a decent (flawed, but decent) rule for a grittier game but absolutely non-thematic for a cinematic game like Star Wars should be.

It would've been perfect for Star Wars if it had been partially based on "tiers" instead of the usual "just randomly do better damage." Like if a crit against mooks was just a +5 margin* and their Life points were so low only a real plinker of a gun might not one-shot them.

* Or even better, make the vs mooks crit just depend on a regular successful attack roll, and doing normal base damage on a "miss", and in this case "base damage" is one dead mook, and a crit is two or more depending on the weapon.

But now we begin straying into "what if D&D was completely different and built to some singular purpose other than 'be D&D' whatever that means" territory where the barren ruins of 4e lay.

Tibalt posted:

I thought that was the point - HP represent plot armor, but an actual hit from a lucky stormtrooper still kills you until you've become a real badass.

Sure but the odds are poo poo for the players, as is often the stumbling block for D&D. Any given player faces tons more attacks than any given NPC, and only Soldiers and maybe whatever the Jedi soldier was could survive more than a couple "lucky" one in every 10-20 attacks. If you were an adventuresome social scoundrel you could get got really quick. And upping your "take crits" points was much harder and less generous than just leveling up, so everyone but the soldier stays that way basically for the whole game, and the soldier doesn't pull all that far ahead of his own starting point.

I think I recall managing a beefy powerhouse soldier who by level 14 or so who still only had like around 30 Life, which is not a lot of "lucky hits" to go before death sets in.

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Feb 27, 2020

a kitten
Aug 5, 2006



I remember having a lot of fun with West End Star Wars. Really though, as far as details go it's just my little brother's sorta Jedi who looked suspiciously like Drizzt, and them naming their knock off Falcon the Bicentennial Bluejay.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


a kitten posted:

I remember having a lot of fun with West End Star Wars. Really though, as far as details go it's just my little brother's sorta Jedi who looked suspiciously like Drizzt, and them naming their knock off Falcon the Bicentennial Bluejay.

If I ever get into another Star Wars RPG I am totally stealing Bicentennial Bluejay to be my ship's name.

I vaguely remember playing Star Wars SAGA. I used a "spacey" version of the same general ex-Conderate gunslinger guy I played in Deadlands and was really happy would I got some Feat that let me use ranged weapons in close combat so I could carry through on his constant threats to pistol-whip people.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
BUTTS





a kitten posted:

the Bicentennial Bluejay.

Your brother is a hero fyi.

MollyMetroid
Jan 20, 2004

Trout Clan Daimyo


my own group's Aeon Eagle pales in comparison

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
BUTTS





Now I want a derpy little ship called the Decade Duck.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Would it break anything to just say "only players can crit"?

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


The Lone Badger posted:

Would it break anything to just say "only players can crit"?

In the vast majority of games, no, it would not. Generally 'only players and maybe like, one or two super boss enemies can crit' is a good thing depending on what kind of play you're going for. Most people are not super into 'one of the thirty little bastards attacking me rolled a 20 so my PC is dead', so for most people this would improve their play experience.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Tibalt posted:

I thought that was the point - HP represent plot armor, but an actual hit from a lucky stormtrooper still kills you until you've become a real badass.
If the deice can decide that this attack bypasses it, it's not really plot armor, is it? Actual plot armor would prevent those lucky hits from happening at all unless it was at a dramatically appropriate moment.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Zereth posted:

If the deice can decide that this attack bypasses it, it's not really plot armor, is it? Actual plot armor would prevent those lucky hits from happening at all unless it was at a dramatically appropriate moment.
"Plot armor" means like five different things and the definition seamlessly shifts around in conversations.

In terms of old school D&D HP past the like, first two levels was always "nebulous fighting edge, gradually eroded by fatigue, don't worry about it." The connection to your Constitution score, of course, kind of mangled this. AD&D also had the rule where you had to do a system shock roll if you took more than 50 points of damage from a single source - Jake the dog taking a cumulative 50 HP from eight orcs shooting arrows at him doesn't do it, but a red dragon breathing fire on him is a different story. I presume this was intended to simulate the really apocalyptic, "yeah, this actually could just physically destroy you" situations.

So in this context HP is just "you have a finite, measurable amount of slack to gently caress up and risk taking big hits." Actual "plot armor" as generally constructed would probably be things like "you cannot, by the rules of the game, be killed by mook-type hazards, only injured or captured" or something. While Darth Ickie actually can just straight up gently caress you up.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





a kitten posted:

naming their knock off Falcon the Bicentennial Bluejay.

God tier name.

FoldableHuman
Mar 26, 2017



Star Wars TTRPGs were

West End Games:

First Edition (1987), front cover is an ensemble of characters taken from movie posters. The first of the D6 Star Wars games.
Second Edition (1992), front cover is blue with Darth Vader framed in a small insert in the middle. The most popular edition of the WEG series. If you played a Star Wars RPG in the 90s is was almost certainly this edition.
Second Edition, Revised and Expanded (1996), front cover is the Millennium Falcon dogfighting with TIEs and X-Wings. Was only in publication for ~18 months. WEG declared bankruptcy in 1998.

Wizards of the Coast:

First Edition (2000), front cover is a remix of the Episode 1 poster. Came out concurrently with D&D 3e as part of WotC's push to make d20 the de facto ruleset for TTRPGs.
Revised Edition (2002), front cover is a mashup of Attack of the Clones and Return of the Jedi key art. Is to first edition as 3.5 is to 3, which is to say a hasty patch on some of the worst balance issues without addressing any of the structural problems with the system.
SAGA Edition (2007), front cover is a minimalist illustration of Darth Vader, and the book is notable for being square, 9.25" on a side, instead of the TSR/WotC standard 8.5"x11". Rules-wise is a bridge between 3.5e d20 and 4e.

Fantasy Flight:

Edge of the Empire (2013)
Age of Rebellion (2014)
Force and Destiny (2015)

Rather than being sequential editions, Fantasy Flight's version compartmentalizes different genres and play styles to encourage more focused, balanced campaigns, as prior editions often posed a huge challenge for DMs to write focused adventures that utilized the spread of possible character archetypes.

Moldless Bread
Jul 10, 2019


The Dark Eye 4.0

Sample Character

Leraika posted:

I like the idea of a wizard con artist.

I admit I am chickening out here a bit and go for the character actually intended by the rules.
The other ones triggered a ‘Not possible’ reflex in me. I think I can build them anyway, but the actual creation process would probably drown in a mess of footnotes, creative rules lawyering and aggressive refluffing.

Inarés Cankuna Ramirez grew up in the slums of Al’anfa. As a Fanas, her family is free but poor, and every single day of her life was a struggle for her parents to bring home enough food for all her brothers and sisters, let alone some coins to save.
It’s little wonder then, that Inarés followed the lure of the less reputable professions, promising plenty of silver (or even gold) for easy work, if you are bold and witty enough to grab the opportunities presenting themselves. And while plenty of rivals and danger lurked in the seedy underbelly of the Black Alliances capital, Inarés always had an edge keeping her safe.
By pure chance (no one else in the family has it) she was born with the magic spark. Freedom and pride were all she had, so she refused to beg a Grande house to pay her tuition for the Magic University of the city, only to become the houses slave indentured servant later. Thankfully, an old, washed up fairground illusionist regularly visited the the tavern in her stomping grounds, who taught her the basics of the Charlatan tradition, the Wizard-light teachings cobbled together by failed Academy students.
Inarés successfully combined the magic with her charm and wits to run cons in the city for decent payouts and the occasional satisfaction of ruining some moneybags scheme, especially if it helps out some poor sap.
Maybe she messed up and had a con revealed, maybe she fears she’s becoming to infamous in the city, or she believed the stories of the gullible northern princelings. Either way, she left the city to travel the continent, always on the lookout for a promising opportunity to make bank and with a soft spot for an underdog story.

As a race, we are choosing the Forest people, the native inhabitants of the southern Aventurian jungles. Their stat block looks like this:

code:
Forest people
Cost: 3GP
Hair color: 1 - 5 Black, 6-19 Blue-black, 20 Dark brown
Eye color: 1-3 Light brown, 4-10 Dark brown, 11-20 black
Height: 152+3D6 centimeters
Weight: Height - 110 kg
Stat modifications: CH +1, AG +1, CO +1, PP -1
HP: +8, Stamina: +12, Magic Resistance -6
Automatic Dis-/Advantages: None
Suggested Dis-/Advantages: Good Stamina, Balance, Danger Sense, Luck, Beautiful, Heat resistance, Poison resistance, Double jointed, Beautiful voice; Superstition, Curious.
Unlikely Dis-/Advantages: Iron skin, Exceptional Balance, High Magic resistance, Cold resistance, Hard to enchant, “Dwarven” Sense; Colorblind, Brittle bones
Usual Cultures: Jungle tribes, Lost tribes, Miniwatu, Tocamuyac, South Aventuria, Buccaneers
Other possible Cultures: Yaquiria, Arania, Tulamidian City States:
Skills: Climbing +2, Physical Control +2, Sneaking +2, Perception +3, Dancing +1, Navigation +1
Dear writers: What THE gently caress is Superstition doing on the RACIAL stat block?


Ahem, anyway: The Charisma Bonus is great for a con woman, Agility and Constitution are generally useful, the penalty for physical power hurts combat, which will (hopefully) not be an issue for Inarés. Hit points are a bit on the frail side, extra Stamina we could take or leave, that MR is pretty bad (but the Average is -4, so not catastrophically bad).
Suggested and unlikely Dis-/Advantages are just that: A suggestion. No mechanical effects if we take them.


I’m going to roll for our looks and get: Black hair, black eyes, 162 cm tall, 52 kg

For the culture, we already established we’re from South Aventuria, I’m additionally springing some points to get the City state, Al’anfa variant. The Stat block looks like this:

code:
South Aventuria:
Cost 5 GP 
Stat Mods: None
Social Maximum: None
Automatic Dis-/Advantages: Social Adaptability
Suggested Dis-/Advantages: Heat resistant, Connections; Superstition, Arrogance, Vanity, Greed, Violent Temper, Curious, Debt, Restricted Diet (Cultural), Duty, Prejudices
Unlikely Dis-/Advantages: Fae friend, Cold Resistant, Kobold friend, Fear of Crowds, Fear of tight spaces.
Combat Professions: All except Amazon, Squire, Tribal Warrior
Traveling, Social and Crafting Professions: All
Magic Professions: Druids (Rare), Witches (No Toads), Wizards, Charlatans, Jokesters, Sharisad
Clerical Professions: Novice (All Twelve Gods except Firun, All Demigods except Swafnir and Ifirn, no Angrosch or Ingra Cult)

Skills: Combat Bow or Crossbow +1, Daggers +2, Brawling +1, Grappling +1, Sabers +1; Physical Swimming +1, Hiding +1,Social  Streetwise +1, Disguise +1, Fast talking +1; Knowledge History +1, Gods/Cults +1, Tales/Legends +1, Appraise +1; Languages Native Language Garethi (Brabaci or Gatamo dialect), Speak Tulamidya +4,Speak Mohic +4, Craft Small Boats +1, Woodworking +1, Leather working +1

Variant: City State (Al’Anfa): +2 GP  Streetwise +2; Sea Fishing or Seafaring +1;  Gods/Cults +2
Well, thats 10 GP down.
As a Profession, we could choose a rogue-ish mundane one and buy the Minor Caster Advantage to get some nice goodies, but I think this is not magic enough for our Magic Con woman.
I considered making her a Witch (Silent Sisterhood, Beauties of the Night and Traveling Fellowship are all good covens for our line of work), but ultimately, we’re taking the Profession that has a con-woman variant: The Charlartan.

code:
Charlatan

Cost: Depending on Variant:
Requirements: CL13 or IN 13, the other 11; CH 12, FF 12
Modifications: MR +1 AsP +6
Automatic Advantage: Demi-Caster
Skills: Combat Daggers +1, Brawling +2, Physical Physical Control +1, Self Control +2, Imitate Voices +2, Social Seducing +1, Streetwise +1, Read People +4, Disguise +4, Fast Talk +2, Convince +1, Knowledge Geography +1; Gods/Cults +3, Magic Lore +1; Mathematics +2, Law +1; Tales/Legends +2, Languages Speak Bosparano or Ur-Tulamidya +2, one foreign language of our choice +4, the appropriate Script +3, 
Feats: Tradition/Ritual knowledge Charlartan, Training for the Illusion-School, Regeneration I (For Astral Points), 
Discounted Feats: Nandusian Knowledge, Regeneration II
Suggested Dis-/Advantages: Beautiful, Social Adaptability, Beautiful voice; Vanity, Curious, Easy to distract
Unlikely Dis-/Advantages: Noble Heritage; Fear of Crowds, Colorblind, Fear of open Spaces, Speech Disorder

Equipment: Fancy, but cheap clothing for a Show including Shoes and Hat, decorated but mundane Magic Staff, Simple traveling clothes with sturdy boots, Dagger, Simple pack with bowl and cutlery
Special Possesion (if bought with Advantage): Simple Horse with Saddle and Bags,  Crystal ball with binding ritual completed, for Court Illusionists: Connections up to 20 GP, allowed to ignore the SO differences:

Variant: Con Woman (12 GP, Time Intensive, additional Requirements FF 13, SO 3-8)
Additional Suggested Dis-/Advantages: Lucky Gambler, Wanted
Additional Skills: Dagger +1, Brawling +1,  Performance Tricks +5, Sneaking +1, Hiding +2, Pick Pockets +3, Carousing +2, Streetwise +2, Read People +2, Fast Talking +4, Mathematics +1, Appraisal +4, Speak Atak +4, raft Cheating (Gambling) +4, Pick Locks +1,
Specialization Spells: Attributo +6, Harmless Figure +6, Ignorantia or Impersona +6, Penetrizzel +7, Sensibar +7
Spells: Applicatus +4, Auroleus +4, Claudibus +3, Foramen +3, Cloud Scrying +4, Ignorantia or Impersona +3, Pectetondo +4, Aversion +3
We only get the special possession if we spring extra GP for it. Ritual knowledge gives us the ritual skill at +3.

So as you can see, the Profession entries in TDE have a lot going on in them. Another small Gripe: That Bonuses to MR and Astral Points Charlatans get are apparently the result of the Demi Caster Advantage, but I can’t find any place where that is clearly written down.
Anyway, we’re at 88 GP left, let me just write all the stuff we’ve gotten down…


A Forest person Capoeira Hruruzat kicking a city guard. There's not much relation to Inarés otherwise, but the picutre is kinda cool...

Next up are the stats. I’m setting the Social Status to 5 before I forget that. That counts as lower class. Inarés has never been a beggar, and that should be enough to allow us to walk around in public places.
After spending the minimum requirements for stats we still have 19 Points until we hit the 100 GP Limit. I raise Intuition, Charisma, and Fleetness to the Generation Cap, give some additional Points to Cleverness and Courage (it takes guts to pull off a con. Research also helps) and set her Physical Power to at least average, we already have a penalty deal with. That leaves 3 points each for Agility and Constitution, and we’re done with this step. The currents Stats are (including Modifiers):

code:
CR  13     AG  12
CH  15     FF  14
CL  13     CO  12
IN  14     PP  9
Looks decent. By the way, 15 is usually the minimum requirement for most advanced feats, let’s see if we can get something interesting from Inarés Charisma.
So technically I am skipping the Dis-/Advantages and take a look at the feats first.

CH 15 actually unlocks only a single feat, and we cannot take that as a Demi Caster. Still, I found some Interesting feats, but all together they would 20 GP. We are already 17 GP over our budget without having bought any advantages, and none of the feats are essential, so we’re putting those on the backburner.

Let’s see what Disadvantages we can use to balance our GPs.
First off, we’re mercilessly exploiting our skillset: We’re taking Backfire, which reflects any spell we fail back onto us at its lowest possible strength. Since most of our spells are cast on ourselves in the first place and the others aren’t particularly dangerous, we’re willing to take that gamble. Hey, that’s our justification, too. Inarés is just not used to aiming spells. We get 10 GP for that.
(Don’t look at us like that, imaginary GM. We could learn attack spells from a wizard (at a horrendous AP cost) and we do have access to some disabling spells.)

A second one is Curse of Darkness - uh, Curse of Honesty, I guess. Inarés always considered her magic gift a natural extension of her cunning and trickery, so using it without deceiving someone feels wrong somehow.
Curse of Darkness is the sample for a template that gives out penalties if certain conditions are (not) met. The original penalizes casting spells at night and gives out the rough guideline that a character should be affected roughly half the time. We need explicit GM approval for our version, but it’s flavorful and unless the GM is planning an Heist-style campaign, I feel just helping people will come up often enough to make a difference. 2 GP for each point of penalty, we grab the maximum of 3 for 6 GP

Next, we’re going to take a Bad Attribute. Let’s say, one attempt to swindle an art collector went spectacularly wrong, leading to him releasing the hounds. This not only left some nasty marks, but also a Fear of Dogs with a value of 6. No matter how good the boy, when Inarés is around anything canine, she either has to roll on her fear (being paralyzed in terror when we roll lower than 7) or will have a penalty of 6 to all of her skill checks.
The exact cost needs to be determined according to rarity, but we already tested our imaginary GMs patience, so we’re taking the low option for 1 GP per point of the Bad Attribute

Now, we’re back to 5GP that we can spend however. I am considering Strong Matrix, lowering the chance of a critical failure when rolling for a spell, or possibly increasing the Fear of Dogs by 3 points to buy improved regeneration of astral points, but I’m feeling cute.
We increase Fear of Dogs to 7 and use the 6 GP to buy Creature of the Night Creature of Deception, the counterpart to Curse of Darkness. Now we cast our spells either with a bonus when we’re tricking someone, or at a penalty when we’re not.

Other Dis-/Advantages I considered were Bad Regeneration (The nightly regeneration sinks to 1D6-1, there should be enough ways to improve healing), Greed (Inarés really likes Gold, possibly enough to push a con or sneak back into a dragons hoard…), Body-bound Power (Part of the Astral Points pool is stored in her hair, so if she cuts it too short…) and Good Memory (Halves all costs to raise spells. This would be amazing in the long run)

All GP spent, we skip the Feats and go on to the Skills.

First off, we’re adding all bonus points from race, culture and profession together. Then, we get to spend (CL+IN)*20 SGP: 540 SGP. We’re raising the skills and spells according to the Table from an earlier update.
First off, I’m buying the Flash spell, giving her panic button when it comes to combat. See, dear imaginary GM, Backfire is meaningful. If she fails the spell, she’ll be blinded herself (for half a round).
Otherwise I’m just raising what looks useful, improving strengths and shoring glaring weaknesses etc.

Right, Starting Age. As a Forest person, Inarés starts Adventuring at 14 + 1D3 years, the time-intensive Charlatan adds 3 years. I roll a 1. Inarés is 18 years old.

Next, we determine the derived Stats:

Hitpoints are (CO+CO+PP)/2 + Modifiers: 25 HP. Oof, that’s low.
Stamina: (CR+CO+AG)/2 + Modifiers: 31
Astral Points: (CR+IN+CH)/2+Modifiers: 27
Basic Attack: (CR+AG+PP)/5 : 7
Basic Parry: (IN+AG+PP)/5: 7
Basic Ranged: (IN+FF+PP)/5: 7
Initiative: (CR+CR+IN+AG)/5: 10
Magic resistance: (CR+CL+CO)/5 + Modifiers : 3

Finally we distribute The Attack and Parry Values(Not that these have much meaning for a fighter like Inarés) :
Daggers 2/2 (Probably our “main” weapon)
Brawling: 0/4 (We’re not going to use it really, so we just want to keep ourselves safe when we have to)
Sabers: 0/3 (Daggers actually have a limited list of weapons they can parry, so we’re getting sabers too and use them purely on the defense)
Grappling: 0/1 (Some Attacks need to be parried with the grappling skill. When you don’t plan to grapple yourself, throw all your skill points onto the parry.)

To buy equipment we get to spend SO*SO*SO Copper pieces, so 5*5*5=125, or 1 Gold Piece, 2 Silver and 5 Copper.



It turns out, I don’t have an equipment list. I guess there was something else in the Basic Book. Let’s just cut Inarés budget in half and say she has everything she needs.

And finally, we’re supposed to put the finishing touches on the roleplaying. Only thing I feel I can add is that Inarés probably regularly prays to Phex, has soft spots for Travia or Rahja and has never voluntarily listened to the sermon of a priest of Praios or Rondra.

And finally, a complete character in TDE, Magic sheet included:

code:
Name: Inarés Cankuna Ramirez		
Race: Forest People	Culture: South Aventuria, City State Al’anfa Profession: Charlartan, Con Woman

Stats (Maximum)
CR	13	(20)			FF	14	(21)		SO 5
CL	13	(20)			AG	12	(18)		
CH	15	(22)			CO	12	(18)
IN	14	(21)			PP	9	(14)

Speed: 8	Hit Points:	25 (31)		Stamina: 31 (43)	Astral Points: 27 (42)
Magic Resistance: 3		Ini: 10		AT: 7		PA: 7		Ranged AT: 7

Advantages: Social adaptability, Demi-Caster, Creature of Deceit 3
Disadvantages: Fear of Dogs: 7, Curse of Honesty 3, Backfire 

Skills: 
Combat:
Crossbows		1		Daggers	4		Impact Weapons 	0
Brawling		4		Grappling	1		Sabers			3
Throwing Knives	0

Physical:
Performance Trick:	5		Climbing	2		Phys. Control		3
Sneaking		4		Swimming	1		Self Control	   	2
Hiding			3		Singing	0		Perception	 	3
Imitate Voices		2		Dancing	1		Carousing		2
Pick Pockets		4

Social:
Seducing		3		Streetwise	9		Read People		9
Disguise		9		Fast Talk	10		Convince		5

Nature:
Tracking		0		Navigation 	1		Survival		0

Knowledge:		
Geography		1		History		1		Gods/Cults		6
Magic Lore		1		Mathematics	3		Law			1
Tales/legends		3		Appraise 	6		

Languages:
Native Tongue: Garethi (Gatamo)	11	
Tulamidya		4		Mohic		6		Atak			4
Bosparano		2		Another Foreign Language +4, Script +3

Craft:
Small Boats		1		Cheating	6		Healing Arts (Wounds): 0
Woodworking		1		Cooking	0		Leatherworking	1
Paint/Draw		0		Pick Locks	4		Tailoring		0
Seafaring		1


Feats: Tradition: Charlatan; Regeneration 1; Illusion-Training
Discounted Feats: Nandusian Knowledge, Regeneration 2

Combat Stats:

Wound Threshold: 12
Injury Thresholds: 25/12/8/6
Stamina Thresholds: 31/15/10/7

Dodge 7

Armor:
Reinforced coat: Armor 1/ Encumbrance 1

Weapon:
Brawling:	1d6 Damage		AT/PA 7/11
Shortsword (As Dagger)	1D6+2 Damage	AT/PA Mod 0/-1 AT/PA 9/8,  Shatter value 1
Shortsword (As Saber)	AT/PA 9 (other Stats like Dagger)



Magic:

Ritual Knowledge 	3
(No Rituals yet)

Spells:

Applicatus	4		Attributo*	9		Auroleus	7
Claudibus	3		Foramen	4		Flash		6
Harmless Figure* 	6	Cloud Scrying	4		Ignorantio* 	6
Impersona	3		Pectodondo	4		Penetrizzel*	7
Sensibar*	8		Aversion	3			

Equipment:
Fancy, but cheap clothing for Cons in high Society,
Jewelry made from Glass baubles and gilded Brass
Simple traveling clothes with sturdy boots and reinforced Doublet, 
Simple pack with bowl and cutlery
Utility Knife
Flas filled with brandy
Inrah-Cards, Dice 
Several cheap trinkets and jewelry.
Building this character took almost 100 Minutes, more than half of them pure note-taking and transcribing. I expected it to take longer, but on the other hand I am intimately familiar with the system, knew exactly what I wanted, and know most feats and Dis-/Advantages from the top of the head. I only had to look up the magical ones, the rest of the time not taken up by writing and calculating were mostly spent juggling GP and deciding on Disadvantages. Also, spending the skill GP happened with very little care because I ran out of steam. I don’t feel like going back and recalculating everything.
Theoretically I could have saved time by writing all the stats directly into a character sheet, but a sketch sheet to quickly change and correct your choices is highly recommended.
The skills are distributed among race, culture and Profession (and it’s variants), so you have to choose between taking extra time to organize your handwritten Skill list or risk making mistakes due to the lack of any order (I actually doubled up on a skill and raised it both times. Whoops).
… I also completely forgot our basic skills when spending SGP, but I don’t think we have any glaring omission that will bite us in the rear end in play…

So, what can Inarés actually do in the game.
She is smart, headstrong and likeable and her fingers are deft like a hummingbird. The rest of her physical stats are mediocre, but the modifiers of the the Forest people make her still decently agile and tough. Just don’t ask her to carry anything heavy.

Her main role in combat will be to cower in a corner and beg for mercy, although she can at least support the martial characters with her Flash spell, unreliable as it is at this point.
We could buy her a proper shield and leather armour, so she can at least stay alive for some combat rounds. If we also set aside some AP per adventure (let’s say around a third) to raise her combat skills, she can even stop being dead weight after the first 400 AP or so, but being a competent fighter is a long way off and requires us to focus on combat skills.

She is not exceptional at anything physical, but has enough points spread around to not embarrass herself. The decent Performance tricks can be used for juggling, fire eating, and - more to the point - shell games. For card and dice tricks, she is using her equally well Cheating skill. She has a good base in other rogue-y skills (Pick locks, Pick pockets, Sneak), but her true strength as a con woman are, of course, the social skills.
Her excellent Fast talk makes her quite good at lying (and haggling, and intimidating, and begging, and…), and Disguise and Read People are helpful to set up some cons as well. With a decent Convincing skill, she has a shot at using a long con, as well.
There is no forgery skill - we’re supposed to use an appropriate crafting skill - but with her good Streetwise she should be able to find someone who can help her with that and other not-quite-legal tasks - or to find shelter when things go south.

She is also surprisingly good at debating Theology. Growing up in a theocracy paid off.

Her languages are sufficient. Garethi is her native tongue, and with a smattering of Tulamidya she should be able to get through most civilized places, her good Mohic won’t do her much good outside of the jungle, though. The additional language confuses me a bit. If I choose one without a script, what happens with the 3 points for writing? Can I use these on my native tongue, then?
Atak is sign language used by thieves.

Of, course, we spent a lot of GP to get those sweet spells. What do they give us?


Attributo is a good allrounder that raises our stats for the next hour.
Sensibar lets us read the mood and emotions of someone (which doesn’t have a mechanical effect).
Penetrizzel allows us to look through walls. Handy, and if we keep on building that we can use it to cheat at cards.
Flash blinds a target for a short while, Auroleus enchants something to look like gold.
Ignorantio allows us to effectively vanish in a crowd. Aversion does the same with objects by making them too disturbing to look at.
Harmless figure puts an illusion on us that makes us seem completely nonthreatening, but we cannot control that. We need Impersona to create a specific disguise.
Cloud Scrying hinders all divination spells.
Foramen and Claudibus are the Knock and Hold Portal spells of TDE. Pectodondo is fluff spells that allows us to change the length and color of our hair.
Finally, Applicatus allows us to pin a spell on an object and have it trigger when touch. There aren’t much obvious applications with our spell list (unless you want to mess with people by having it trigger Aversion).

So not much that helps us actually tricking people, but plenty of panic buttons when things go wrong.
Charlartans generally don’t have a great spell list, focusing mostly on Illusions (and most of them too flashy for Inarés job), but we can learn Wizards spells for a lowered cost.


Her Astral pool is pretty small right now, though (that’s Demi-Casters for you), so she has to think carefully when to use a spell, and most actions will be resolved with a mundane skill roll.

And that’s our character, focused pretty strongly on urban and social situations, with some neat tricks to pull out of her sleeve, but struggles with a lot of other situations.
Of course, depending on how we’ll spend AP she can look pretty different in a few thousand AP.

When building a character, there aren’t really traps that will ruin your character. You can definitely come out weaker than other characters by spreading your skills around to thin or pay too much for an overpriced building block (which we kinda did. Witches aren’t much more expensive than charlatans but much better spellcasters), but basic competency in skills can be gained pretty quickly - unless your campaign has a tight schedule and your group is using learning times.
Just remember to spend all your 100 GP on stats, especially in the ones you really want.
(Oh, and generation is the only point where you can make the choice to become a spellcaster. No upgrading from Minor/Demi-Casters either, so magic characters need more planning.)

What is worse is that there is no guideline how high you can raise skills in character generation. I took a reasonable, diverse approach here, but nothing is stopping us from raising our Fast Talk skill to our current cap of 18 and pick up or other skills in play. Both approaches kinda work, but the group really should find a common guideline everybody is following, but there is no discussion of that in the generation rules.
The only vague hint is that WFF calls 7 the end of apprenticeship, so obviously a good rule of thumb for beginner right? A single bad or two below average rolls in skill check can ruin that attempt, so this feels pitifully low.
Worse, not all skills are equal at the same level. Let’s take the commonly accepted fresh character cap of 12 (that is so widespread I actually thought that was a rule from the book. Whoops)
Is Fast Talking 12 good? Definitely. It will work most of the time and leave us with a decent quality.
Is Climbing 12 good? That strongly depends on the encumbrance, and therefore mostly on the expected armor of the group and therefore on how combat heavy the campaign is.
Is a weapon skill of 12 good? At this point you can just barely start to engage with the combat system properly.
Is a spell of 12 good? That strongly depends on the spell in question and how big the characters AsP pool is.

So yeah, not many outright traps, but also a total lack of guidance on how exactly a beginning character should look.

----------------

Culture Corner

Arania, an tulamidian province, used to be annexed by the Middle realm for several centuries. It’s a fertile land with very few large cities that used to be the empires breadbasket. Most people live in villages and hamlets on the land and are governed by a feudal system that shows clear influence from the european styled empire, but instead of Barons, Counts, Dukes and Kings Aranians are reigned by Beyrouns, Emirs, Sultans and Shah. The influence is obvious in the clothing as well - 1001 Night style clothing of Kaftan, loose pants, Fez and Turban are mixed with Doublets, skirts and heavy boots.
While Aranians are generally pretty social and have big families, they aren’t overly concerned with bloodlines. The wealth of a family, rather than their ancestors, determine it’s social standing, and the heir to a matriarchs fortune position is usually an adopted or in-law daughter that show the greatest promise. Women are considered the leaders of families and businesses, while men are seen as free spirits whose company is enjoyed, but who are otherwise better left to their own hobbies - which, mind, include warfare.
The wizard guilds never really managed to leverage their power in Arania and Witches are just as respected in magical matters, if not more so.
The most interesting mechanical aspects are that every Aranian knows potentially the basics of magic, and they get both Tulamidiya and Garethi as native Languages, as well as decent literacy in one of those. Variants are city, coast or noble family, as well as a mandatory choice between genders. Men cost more (6 to 5 GP) which is the result of a quirk of the profession building rules more than any reasonable trade-off.


An Aranian noblewoman

Profession Parade

Journeymen/women of the Sword* are pretty new, both to the rules and the background. The JotS represents a noble and/or rich fighter who learned fighting for fightings sake. They don’t learn combat at the frontlines or at an academy, but are the handpicked students of a single, distinguished and often famous sword master. Unlike Warriors, they don’t have the official backing of state and church, but are generally accepted as dependable and honorable warriors by sheer reputation.
Despite being pretty foppish, JotS aren’t easy going swashbucklers, but seriously dedicated to their craft. Some settle for becoming professional duellists or teach sword fighting to some nobles child, but most start to travel around Aventuria to hone their skills and refine their swordplay by learning from other masters, until they develop their own fighting style and can become sword masters themselves.
(There is no explanation how to become a sword master, or if it requires an official trial or having other masters vouch for you or anything. My personal interpretation has always been that a character becomes a sword master as soon as they call themselves one and stop being a sword master when someone tells them “You’re not.” after kicking their asses.)
Most JotS have a european aesthetic (The spreading knowledge of HEMA fencing manuals in the late 90s is a clear inspiration), but they work pretty well for a classic Kung-Fu movie setup as well.
Mechanically, they obviously get good combat skills in a single weapon, good physical, social and knowledge skills (including literacy), an unarmed fighting style and feats. Feats are the bread and butter of the JotS, and their big draw. Where other Professions give or discount some basic feats that maybe suggest a fighting style and academic Warriors can buy whatever they want, JotS provides a complete set of feats tailored to their specific weapon for free and discount a lot of ones that weapon is built around.
That makes them pretty expensive. The basic chassis that every JotS uses already has several flaws baked in: The Bad Attributes Arrogance and Vanity (see: foppish), Debt of over a 1000 Gold pieces and a code of honor, and the cheapest JotS still costs 19 GP. Add in the high requirements for Attributes and Social status, and JotS usually drown in Disadvantages.
The 4.0 book presents us with four different styles, but encourages the reader to create their own Style, with the unspoken implication that their old characters become the swordmasters.

The Garetian style of the brothers Adersin uses uncharacteristically heavy arms, wielding a hand-and-a-half sword with a light set of plate armor.
The Adersin family were the first ones to distribute fencing manuals about sword-and-boarding and are seen as the first formal sword masters. The Brothers that inherited the school developed their own fighting style based on the hand-and-half-sword (which they call the King of all weapons) and teach their style to noble students only.
The fighting style capitalizes on the hand-and-a-half swords feat selection of Yes! and provides their students with a feat for every occasion, be it counterattacks, disarming strikes and parries or a withering offense.

The Albernian Brawling style of ni Uinin was created when a student of the original Adersin adapted their fighting style to naval combat and boarding actions.
Ni Uinins fight close up with short swords and bucklers, goading the enemy to attack and binding their blade. And of course, they brawl, the fluff text tells us. (Despite the fact that their unarmed style is only discounted, just like the other styles. Also, I don’t think the combination of armed and unarmed styles existed already in 4.0).
Their feats are built around parrying weapons, increasing defense and using the Bind Blade feat to set up an attack, even if they are pretty light on the offensive.

The Vagrant style of Fedorino is the classical swashbuckling style. Their Rapier and Parrying dagger style have dominated the street brawls and duels in Horasia for the last two decades.
Fedorinos usually goad an enemy to attack and counter after binding their blade. If that sounds familiar, yeah, turns out they almost the same feat selection as the Uinins, mostly trading out the Combat in Water feat against the equally niche Improvised weapons one and fighting with a worse weapon and wearing worse armor.
As an added insult, they don’t even get Aimed Thrust and Killing Thrust, the poster feats of rapiers.
Also, the fluff points out they are traveling in caravans between cities, but they get the Incompetence: Nature disadvantage hard baked in. I guess the fluff and the rules were written by different persons.

The Rastullah-pleasing Blades style of al-Halan is the brainchild of a former cavalry officer that converted to the faith of Rastullah. Only male Rastullah believers can ever complete the apprenticeship.
The style focuses on sabers and shields, but also bows, and while the actual feat list is pretty short, it includes the mounted combat feats, making al-Halanis a bit more flexible.

JotS have some weird non-standard Rules attached. Not only do they start into their adventuring lives with less money than the standard calculation, the less armored styles also suffer additional encumbrance from armor. Which, I think, is supposed to disincentivize putting you nimble swashbucklers into heavier (read: more effective) armors beyond the standard encumbrance rules, bit it means our master duelists drafted into a militia and handed chainmail and a spear is now a worse fighter than the completely inexperienced seamstress or scribe at their sides…
Worse, since those aren’t proper disadvantages, they have no attached GP cost, which makes me doubt they are properly factored into the profession costs. To top it off, the harshest penalty of those (the Fedorinos can’t even wear a padded Gambeson…) doesn’t even get an equally handwavey bonus in exchange, so they give less an impression of well considered balancing and more some slapdash extra rules that are supposed to enforce the fluff envisioned by the writers.
These traits have been removed in 4.1, strengthening my suspicion that they weren’t part of the cost calculations.

Speaking of 4.1, Path of Heroes consolidated all Professions in one book, and it turns out most new Professions were new JotS variants. There are now also the Brillant Dwarven Swordsmen (Sword and shield), the Balayanim of Marwan Sahib (Dual wielding shortswords/daggers), the Aranian Balayanim (Saber and Iron Fan), the Khunchomion/Rashdulian Saber fencers (Sabers and medium Armor, both used to be Warrior academies in 4.0), Almadanian Caballeri (Al-Halanis, but believing in the Twelve Gods) and the Maraskanian Buskur (Samurai concentrating on Hand-and-Half Swords). Sadly, they never actually created the suggested Pollaxe style.

* Because they learned from a sword master and are no longer apprentices, get it?
The german name for them sounds credible even if it’s not a real word, but sword journeyman sounds awkward. I don’t know what a good translation would be. Students of the blade sounds overwrought, Fencers doesn’t reflect the diversity of fighting styles, just swordswomen sounds so pedestrian...


Spell Selection

Auris Nasus Oculus is the most important workhorse for any illusionist. (Well, Wizard or Charlatan)
Create a picture of decent size, a sound or a smell (or any combination) that has a potential to fool people. Masters also create moving pictures or even create taste and tactile illusions.

Axxeleratus Lightning Speed hastes a target character. No additional actions, but good combat bonuses, doubled speed and speed-based athletic checks. Also a pretty vague instructions to demand AGI checks from the character to avoid running into walls with their unfamiliar movement speed.
A variant of this spell is needed to speak kobold, otherwise a human tongue can’t keep up.

Moldless Bread fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Mar 2, 2020

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.


Oh god, I remember the 1st Ed WotC Star Wars rules in which you needed a rope to jump down from a duct into a corridor and two spaceships could both be behind and facing each other.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Holy, making a TDE character feels like something you need to put aside an entire day for.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




PurpleXVI posted:

Holy, making a TDE character feels like something you need to put aside an entire day for.

"What if Germany decided to make a tabletop RPG," the mad sage dared to ask. Here, now, is the terrible answer.

Nemo2342
Nov 25, 2007

Have A Day





Nap Ghost

Moldless Bread posted:

Of, course, we spent a lot of GP to get those sweet spells. What do they give us?


Attributo is a good allrounder that raises our stats for the next hour.
Sensibar lets us read the mood and emotions of someone (which doesn’t have a mechanical effect).
Penetrizzel allows us to look through walls. Handy, and if we keep on building that we can use it to cheat at cards.
Flash blinds a target for a short while, Auroleus enchants something to look like gold.
Ignorantio allows us to effectively vanish in a crowd. Aversion does the same with objects by making them too disturbing to look at.
Harmless figure puts an illusion on us that makes us seem completely nonthreatening, but we cannot control that. We need Impersona to create a specific disguise.
Cloud Scrying hinders all divination spells.
Foramen and Claudibus are the Knock and Hold Portal spells of TDE. Pectodondo is fluff spells that allows us to change the length and color of our hair.
Finally, Applicatus allows us to pin a spell on an object and have it trigger when touch. There aren’t much obvious applications with our spell list (unless you want to mess with people by having it trigger Aversion).

So not much that helps us actually tricking people, but plenty of panic buttons when things go wrong.
Charlartans generally don’t have a great spell list, focusing mostly on Illusions (and most of them too flashy for Inarés job), but we can learn Wizards spells for a lowered cost.

I feel like you could get some fun things going by combining Applicatus and Flash. Especially if you have people ready who can take advantage of a suddenly blinded mark.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.



This is the most FATAL and Friends thing I've seen outside of this thread, for almost every value.

https://twitter.com/deathbybadger/status/1234423909434392577

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
BUTTS





Hey Moldless, loving the Dark Eye review cause like hell I'm ever gonna read that.

I know I'm late to the party but any chance of giving the original German sometimes for those of us who sprechen Sie? I'm not doubting your translation (you're probably doing way better than I ever could), but I'm naturally curious, and, again, no way in hell I'm ever picking up those books. D&D 4e is about as crunchy as I can get as a sometimes food if I'm really in the mood, and even then only cause I already memorized most of the rules.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



TDE does partially explain why Shadowrun took off like it did in Germany.

Glagha
Oct 13, 2008

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAaaAAAaaAAaAA
AAAAAAAaAAAAAaaAAA
AAAA
AaAAaaA
AAaaAAAAaaaAAAAAAA
AaaAaaAAAaaaaaAA



Having played a one shot of The Dark Eye with the DM holding our hands pretty strongly the whole game at pax was an eye opening experience. There was some novelty to the dice mechanics but daaamn did it feel like if OSR nerds decided to make a more modern game with modern mechanical heft. Fuckin 30 umptillion skills each with 3 ability scores they key off of, and separate lists of spoken vs. read/write languages. It wasn't an entirely unpleasant experience but definitely not the sort of game I'd ever wanna play with regularity.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

This is the most FATAL and Friends thing I've seen outside of this thread, for almost every value.

https://twitter.com/deathbybadger/status/1234423909434392577

I'm amused that demons from the 1980's knew to allow a space for "other" gender on their forms when some humans from 2020 haven't figured it out yet.

But holy poo poo I want this.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



PurpleXVI posted:

I'm amused that demons from the 1980's knew to allow a space for "other" gender on their forms when some humans from 2020 haven't figured it out yet.

But holy poo poo I want this.

For people as clearly well-read in this, I'm not surprised.

Lemme put it this way: Rabbinical Judaism of the Babylonian Diaspora period classified at least four genders, and Judaism's a heavily binary religion in terms of gender. But, y'know, folks like to classify stuff and they had to find words for people who didn't clearly fit in the two boxes.

Moldless Bread
Jul 10, 2019


Xiahou Dun posted:

Hey Moldless, loving the Dark Eye review cause like hell I'm ever gonna read that.

I know I'm late to the party but any chance of giving the original German sometimes for those of us who sprechen Sie? I'm not doubting your translation (you're probably doing way better than I ever could), but I'm naturally curious, and, again, no way in hell I'm ever picking up those books. D&D 4e is about as crunchy as I can get as a sometimes food if I'm really in the mood, and even then only cause I already memorized most of the rules.

I don't mind. Is there something you're specifically interested in or something that's unclear?

The JotS german name, for example is Schwertgeselle - literally sword journeyman. As I said, it sounds right in german. The style names have been pretty closely translated (Albernisches Raufen, Vagantenstil, Rastullahgefällige Klingen)

I might as well admit I got a bit carried away translating the attributes. I mean, Charisma and Intuition aren't even spelled differently, and Constitution, Agility and Courage are simple translations (Konstitution, Agilität, Mut). Cleverness is not quite the correct translation (Klugheit means more general intelligence), but it allows me to use a very similar abbreviation. That's how I landed on the somewhat silly Fleetness of Fingers - Fingerfertigkeit is just an somewhat uncommon word meaning (manual) dexterity, but I couldn't resist the chance to use FF in english too.
Physical power is similar. Körperkraft is just Strength, but I jumped on the chance to use another repetetive letter to turn KK into PP. Having all these similarities honestly helps me with transcribing the abbreviated stats.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

This is the most FATAL and Friends thing I've seen outside of this thread, for almost every value.

https://twitter.com/deathbybadger/status/1234423909434392577

I'm all for an internally consistent hell bureaucracy that has a good explanation for the banners.

The only thing this is missing is illustrations by Wayne Barlowe.

Page 159: *an image of The Screaming Arch of Asmodeus, the largest soulbrick structure in nine hells, sagging under its own weight and thus in eternal suffering.*
Page 160: in-depth discussion of the incubi labour disputes that had halted the construction of The Screaming Arch for five years and the resultant changes in hell labour code.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


JcDent posted:

I'm all for an internally consistent hell bureaucracy that has a good explanation for the banners.

The only thing this is missing is illustrations by Wayne Barlowe.

Page 159: *an image of The Screaming Arch of Asmodeus, the largest soulbrick structure in nine hells, sagging under its own weight and thus in eternal suffering.*
Page 160: in-depth discussion of the incubi labour disputes that had halted the construction of The Screaming Arch for five years and the resultant changes in hell labour code.

God's Demon loving rocked. And I've just learned that there's a sequel. I need to acquire it nowish.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
BUTTS





Moldless Bread posted:

I don't mind. Is there something you're specifically interested in or something that's unclear?

The JotS german name, for example is Schwertgeselle - literally sword journeyman. As I said, it sounds right in german. The style names have been pretty closely translated (Albernisches Raufen, Vagantenstil, Rastullahgefällige Klingen)

I might as well admit I got a bit carried away translating the attributes. I mean, Charisma and Intuition aren't even spelled differently, and Constitution, Agility and Courage are simple translations (Konstitution, Agilität, Mut). Cleverness is not quite the correct translation (Klugheit means more general intelligence), but it allows me to use a very similar abbreviation. That's how I landed on the somewhat silly Fleetness of Fingers - Fingerfertigkeit is just an somewhat uncommon word meaning (manual) dexterity, but I couldn't resist the chance to use FF in english too.
Physical power is similar. Körperkraft is just Strength, but I jumped on the chance to use another repetetive letter to turn KK into PP. Having all these similarities honestly helps me with transcribing the abbreviated stats.

O no, you're great. I just naturally wonder about the original wording cause I'm curious about that kind of thing. (Like I guessed it was Fingerfertigkeit but it's cool to know for sure.) I figured it probably wouldn't be a big pain for you to type a few extra words here and there, and it'd make me happy to know what and how you're translating, so I thought I'd ask politely to see if you wouldn't mind.

And yeah, "Schwetgeselle" does sound a lot better in German lol. That's a night and day difference. The closest I can come up with something in English is something like "errant" but that has all sorts of other connotations that make it not work, so you're better off just coining a new word.

Tsilkani
Jul 28, 2013



Okay, so I'm trying to revive my Infinity RPG review, and I'm slogging through the first rules chapter, and I'm wondering should I go to the trouble of writing out the various character conditions, or should I just list them and move on?

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Just talk about stuff that’s weird or bad; the Let’s Read treatment isn’t always necessary.

Tibalt
May 14, 2017

What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee


Tsilkani posted:

Okay, so I'm trying to revive my Infinity RPG review, and I'm slogging through the first rules chapter, and I'm wondering should I go to the trouble of writing out the various character conditions, or should I just list them and move on?
With stuff like that, I would focus on how they contribute (or detract) from the game and how they feel. Are they mostly corner cases? The main way your character interacts with the world besides damage? A confusing mess that should have been excised altogether?

To point to d&d 3.5, the interesting thing about the Toughness feat isn't the +4 HP.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Tibalt posted:

With stuff like that, I would focus on how they contribute (or detract) from the game and how they feel. Are they mostly corner cases? The main way your character interacts with the world besides damage? A confusing mess that should have been excised altogether?

To point to d&d 3.5, the interesting thing about the Toughness feat isn't the +4 HP.

...there's interesting things about the Toughness feat?

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

Mors Rattus posted:

...there's interesting things about the Toughness feat?

Examining the muddled design process and identities of feats that lead to a +4 hp feat existing at all.

Tibalt
May 14, 2017

What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee


Kaza42 posted:

Examining the muddled design process and identities of feats that lead to a +4 hp feat existing at all.
And their retroactive justification as deliberately bad "trap options" to reward system mastery!

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

I've always wondered what that makes that whole chain of X's Toughness feats from the first fighter's book. Other than filler.

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FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

I thought Toughness had a bit of utility as a low-effort "filler" feat when statting up monsters (who got their own feats).

"Orc Leader has a class level and I have to choose a feat? OK, Toughness, boom he has a couple extra HP. Done."

Which, of course, leads to discussions about the wisdom and necessity of fully statting up monsters and having them use the same rules-as-physics as the PCs.

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