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90s Cringe Rock
Nov 29, 2006
:gay:
a mob of npcs joining the party is tiresome and awkward to deal with so you can't hire mercenaries unless you want to drag things out and make the entire table suffer

but if it's a class feature,

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JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Everyone posted:

Figure my response to people wanting to alter or remove the Ducks would be:

Me: "Are Halflings okay in D&D?"

Them: "Yeah, I guess so."

Me: "Then shut up."

I've grown to hate non-LotR halflings more and more, while my love for ducks has never floundered.

Ducks are objectively better.



DUCKS!

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016





The game does break the same if you hire mercenaries. If you go to not-England and hire all the unemployed longbowmen you can do the exact same thing, it just opens (as others have pointed out) the opportunity for DMs to gently caress with you more.

Jimmeeee posted:

I feel like there's a story here, if you're up for elaborating. Thanks for the writeup, it's fun to see the new and creative ways the D&D team can find to further gently caress up the balance in the game.

Not much to say, I asked him during a reddit AMA why the DMG was delayed if they'd had an entire year to prepare and why the skill system didn't have consistent outputs. As I recall, his reply was that if I wanted cross-table consistency 5e was not for me. As it turned out, he was right!

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer

JcDent posted:

I've grown to hate non-LotR halflings more and more, while my love for ducks has never floundered.

Ducks are objectively better.



DUCKS!

I'm not sure the guy in the upper right corner agrees, but his opinion doesn't matter.

megane
Jun 20, 2008



Bieeanshee posted:

I'm not sure the guy in the upper right corner agrees, but his opinion doesn't matter.

The best part of every KoDP picture is the random Orlanthi villagers photobombing it with weird expressions.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer

megane posted:

The best part of every KoDP picture is the random Orlanthi villagers photobombing it with weird expressions.

"Who are they?"

"Oh, that's the film crew. They're making a video game."

Mr. Maltose
Feb 16, 2011

The Guffless Girlverine
Yeah, I dunno, dude looks cautiously excited about getting a visit from the ducks.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

And the best part is that side of the screen is usually hidden by the story blurb, so the artists tend to sneak in jokes and the like for the players that figured out how to hide the decision scroll.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Age of Sigmar Lore Chat: Cities of Sigmar
Magic Lives



Hallowheart is the home of the Hallowed Knights Stormhost, built inside a large crater-shaped hole in the ground called the Shimmering Abyss. A large basalt mesa emerges from the hole, and before the city was there, it was the lair of the Wyrdflame Drake, a massive, snake-like dragon that was corrupted by Tzeentch. The Hallowed Knights and the local Vostarg Lodge Fyreslayer mercenaries slew the beast in a massive battle at the start of the Realmgate Wars, clearing the land for reclamation. Hallowheart has been built into the mesa the dragon once lived in, descending through it into the Abyss. The central column is full of massive, winding staircases, and the city makes quite a lot of money on the mining it performs to expand due to the minerals that run through it.

These minerals are typically bathed in magic, and the most valuable magical mineral is emberstone, a powerful but volatile and semisentient material. This mining is exceptionally dangerous, requiring only the most skilled excavators, armed with the most advanced protections available from the Ironweld and Collegiate Arcane. The Collegiate's headquarters in the city, Whitefire Court, are built almost entirely from emberstone, and the building twists and changes shape on a daily basis, driven by the magical commands of the wizards within. Many of them spend their time studying the relics and treasures of the Agloraxi mage-kings that ruled over the Flamescar Plateau in the Age of Myth. The wizards love the place due to the powerful magical aura...but they are also endangered by it, thanks to the lasting influence of Tzeentch.

To keep the wizards in check, both the Hallowed Knights and the Devoted of Sigmar maintain a vigil against magical corruption in Hallowheart, as well as any signs of Tzeentchian activity in the Abyss. There's plenty of that - Tzeentch's corruption runs very deep in the caves. The Stormcast often head into the mines on secretive missions to hunt down daemons, and entire excavation teams have been known to vanish occasionally. The city's people tend to be fearful about daemonic attack and that isn't helped by the frequency with which Witch Hunters and Stormcast sentinels are seen in the streets, heading for danger areas. That said, it is the Witch Hunters they fear, not the Hallowed Knights - the locals love their Stormcast.

The Hallowed Knights operate out of the Celestrine Cathedral, built at the summit of the mesa. It is at once part of the Stormkeep and a massive temple to Sigmar, with walls of enchanted stained glass housing gigantic basilicas and worship halls, capable of housing thousands. In times of emergency, they are used as refuges by the citizens of Hallowheart, such as during the Living Inferno crisis, when sentient fires assaulted the city during the Necroquake. Under it is the Stormkeep proper, the Shining Citadel. Far below are the crystal caverns, source of much of the magic in the area. This magic flows through the entire city and all of its inhabitants, granting them a portion of its energy. The people of Hallowheart tend to be touched by magic in many ways - sometimes they have strange birthmarks or extraordinary luck, sometimes slight mutations, it varies a lot. In all cases, however, it grants an innate resilience to harmful magic, a trait the military forces of Hallowheart take advantage of often. For those spellcasters born and raised there, however, it also provides a powerful boost to abilities. Magic done within Hallowheart's borders comes easily and is surprisingly easy to control, and so many local Battlemages make a fine living as spell hunters, tracking predatory living spells and wiping them out.

Hallowheart's armies are also especially well-armed with magical artillery such as the Luminark or the Celestial Hurricanum, which rely on magical foci to launch massive magical attacks at the enemy. Their standard battle strategy is to use heavily armored defensive infantry to protect their wizards and magical engines, which they rely on for the majorit of their offense. The city is also well known for hiring Fyreslayers to supplement their forces, as the mines provide pleny of gold to pay them with - either from the veins proper or from selling the minerals mined.



Tempest's Eye is built all over a mountain in the Brimstone Peninsula of Aqshy, allowing it to serve as both a natural fortress and a thriving trade skyport. It is built on multiple levels, connected by winches and cables. The cliffs are caughted in skydocks, which are in near constant use by duardin airships and gyrocutters, bringing goods in and out for trade. Due to its height, the mountain is constantly surrounded by an aura of Celestial magic, and the city is also famous for its planar observatories and orreries.

The city's seers are always hard at work watching over the lands under the dominion of the Tempest Lords, the Stormhost that controls the city and resides within the Castle Regal at its highest peak. All of them are of noble birth and see themselves as leaders, so the Tempest Lords take an active hand in governing the city, far more than pretty much any other Stormhost. They are heavily involved in city politics and law, and are obsessive about fairness and justice, as it is their duty to inspire those below. Both their highest Lord-Celestant and Lord-Castellan have seats on the Grand Conclave in areas focusing on civil and martial affairs.

The mountains of the city overlook a vast ash steppes with many fortified outposts and Freeguild camps. They focus heavily on cavalry forces, particularly Outriders and Pistoliers, as they are often required to travel and fight over long distances on the steppes. They are directed in their movements by the seers and prophets employed by Tempest's Eye, who use the heights and their Celestial aura to provide detailed predictions of enemy movements. Ambush and mobile raids are a favored tactic, drawing the enemy into vulnerable spots so that the Tempest Lords can launch an aerial assualt on unsuspecting foes.

The Kharadron maintain a strong alliance with Tempest's Eye - its position as a prime trade port makes it a valuable friend. They have achieved a lot of profit from trades with the locals, and so their forces have often been seen working alongside both the Freeguild cavalry and the Tempest Lords in defense of the city's interests. Many of the Kharadron skyports have reached the conclusion that long-term profit relies on the existence of the city and thus have deemed it an asset worthy of martial protection.

Next time: The Collegiate Arcane and the Freeguilds

OtspIII
Sep 22, 2002

Ithle01 posted:

Hypnotic Pattern is a great example of a spell that is far more powerful at lower levels than higher levels where more enemies will just be able to no-sell it instantly, but they can't exactly shrug off a Cone of Cold or something else.

What are people's experiences (in play) of how much of an impact stuff like legendary resistances have on all this? Do they make damage a viable way to beat enemies, or does it just devolve into 2-3 turns of the party mages burning the resistances down before ending it all?

Ithle01
May 28, 2013

OtspIII posted:

What are people's experiences (in play) of how much of an impact stuff like legendary resistances have on all this? Do they make damage a viable way to beat enemies, or does it just devolve into 2-3 turns of the party mages burning the resistances down before ending it all?

2-3 turns is sometimes literally an entire fight. In my experience 5th ed. combat is very fast and fights get decided fairly quickly or at least the actual important parts of the fight get decided very quickly. This has some downsides. Combat healing is a complete waste of time, not just because it doesn't heal enough (it does not), but also because spending an action to heal means wasting an action that can simply remove a damage dealer. Similarly, if an enemy has legendary resistance and your wizard spends an action to do something that doesn't change the game state in any way then your wizard has made a mistake.

There are a bunch of exceptions to this, but this is more or less my experience.

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016





Ithle01 posted:

2-3 turns is sometimes literally an entire fight. In my experience 5th ed. combat is very fast and fights get decided fairly quickly or at least the actual important parts of the fight get decided very quickly. This has some downsides. Combat healing is a complete waste of time, not just because it doesn't heal enough (it does not), but also because spending an action to heal means wasting an action that can simply remove a damage dealer. Similarly, if an enemy has legendary resistance and your wizard spends an action to do something that doesn't change the game state in any way then your wizard has made a mistake.

There are a bunch of exceptions to this, but this is more or less my experience.

I really want to know what you are doing to make 5e combat fast, because I find everything has far too many HP and people can and will miss.

Ithle01
May 28, 2013

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I really want to know what you are doing to make 5e combat fast, because I find everything has far too many HP and people can and will miss.

I find that fights have a tipping point where once the enemies have suffered enough losses the monsters will start to death spiral and then the rest of the fight is a mop-up exercise. Missing early attacks in a fight is far more consequential than missing attacks later in a fight. DnD heavily rewards blowing your biggest attack early rather than holding it in reserve, although you do have to make certain that you maximize your chance to hit. But like I said, there are exceptions. Big enemies such as dragons have less of a tipping point, but they also have limited resources and if you can survive their damage bursts with enough hp in reserve you'll take them out.

Or it could just be that someone in the group is always either a paladin or a hexblade warlock and we always have a diviner wizard as backup. (It's probably this)

I'll have to check my old game notes to see how long some of the 'big' fights lasted. Okay, after checking some of my last group's level 5-8 encounters, it seems that the fight's lasted about five rounds with most of them decisively decided in round three or four, so I may have been off a bit in my 2-3 rounds, but I also should note that these were 'big' fights that were above the appropriate challenge rating for the party. However, the PCs started the fights at, or close to, nearly full strength with most of their resources ready to compensate. I also have several fights that dragged on either because the party fought poorly or rolled poorly. However, in two cases it was because I choose an enemy that was 'a pile of hp and nothing else' so that's on me (loving shambling mounds).

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Man now trying to recall if there's any edition tabletop or game where Shambling Mounds aren't massive time-wasters.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

The Lone Badger posted:

If a mob of lovely skeletons is so gamebreaking, why not hire a mob of lovely mercenaries?

Because there's no class feature/ability that states "hire X mercenaries per round essentially for free*."

*spell components exist, but nobody cares**.

**E: Spell components for animate dead are, apparently, "A drop of blood, a piece of flesh, and a pinch of bone dust," which should be plentiful due to murder-hoboing. I'm sure there are lovely level 1 spells that would require rarer stuff."

E2: Mend is a stupid cantrip you'll never use that requires two lodestones, which makes it harder to cast than Animate Dead.

JcDent fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Nov 23, 2020

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Wait do you not bring a bunch of pre-modern pseudo-magnets when you go homicide-camping?

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
I keep track of them right next to all of the grasshoppers I dismembered for jump.

Angrymog
Jan 30, 2012

Really Madcats

Removing Morale and Reaction rolls from D&D was such a poo poo decision.

Cooked Auto
Aug 4, 2007

If you will not serve in combat, you will serve on the firing line!




I think the only time our group cared about spell components in our 5e games was when they were really expensive. Otherwise it was just covered via the magic component pouch or a spell focus of some kind.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!
OK, Imma gonna ask a thing: what is an example of a good elfgame? Like, where martials don't snooze after their one attack, where exploration and social are actually pillar shaped, where caster supremacy isn't a thing? Does The Good Elfgame even exist?

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Ironclaw 2e does those things pretty well! Though it also works better if you port in Soaks from Urban Jungle, though that takes some serious work, sadly. But Ironclaw 2e has plenty of room for diplomacy and out of combat mechanics, magic is interesting but doesn't overrun the game, and warriors are fun to play and have a lot of options from atavism to fencing to armored knights on angry raptors. If you want a crunchy fantasy adventure game it works.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Age of Sigmar Lore Chat: Cities of Sigmar
The Heroes of Men



The Collegiate Arcane is an organization dating back to the Age of Chaos. When Sigmar made his fighting retreat to Azyr, many human wizards and spellcasters were among the refugees. They came from across the Mortal Realms, from thousands of different cultures, and their magical knowledge was as a result exceptionally diverse and widespread. The pyromancers of Aqshy knew all the secrets of flame, while the hedge druids of the Jade Kingdoms were masters of plant magic, and the soul whisperers of Shyish knew how to calm the unquiet dead. Sigmar decreed that this arcane wisdom was to be preserved at all costs, and at his order, the mages formed the Collegiate Arcane, building the Towers of the Eight Winds in the skies over Azyrheim. The towers, even now, are held in the sky by powerful enchantments that allow them to drift around above the Eternal City. Each one is a massive college and arcane study devoted to mystic lore and the recovery of artifacts dedicated to one of the Winds. The Battlemages of the Collegiate typically spend a full decade studying at one tower, and only the greatest and eldest of their number have studied at all eight and thus qualify for the rank of Grandmaster.

Even a Collegiate apprentice is nothing to be sneezed at, however. Most spellcasters have the greatest talent for the Wind corresponding to their home realm, so a Battlemage born in Hysh has great command of Light Magic, and while they are not prevented from learning the magics of Ulgu, they will have much more innate talent for summoning creatures of light such as the GHuardians of Pha or calling down blasts of radiance. While many Collegiate mages still train in the Eight Towers, associated towers and schools have been built in all of the major Free Cities, funded publicly with the promise of magical support when the city is threatened. Battlemages are often called on to help purify corrutped Realmgates, to fight daemons or to defeat enemies who seem immune to normal cannon fire. The Collegiate is a human institution, and unlike the aelven mages of the Eldritch Council, Collegiate members are almost universally unable to instinctively command magic. Instead, they rely on sorcerous foi or techno-arcane machines to channel the power they command. These typically appear as staves, hourglasses or other relatively simple items, through which the mages channel their power.

While the Battlemages' offensive magic is by far their most famous ability, it is not their only one. Magic is very versatile, and they're just as able to conjure protective shields or grant strength to allies. Most Battlemages are not, however, masters of physical combat. They dedicate too much time to their studies and rarely spend time practicing swordsmanship. This doesn't make them easy to fight in duels, however. Their magic can be called on to shield them from physical blows as easily as arcane ones, and their magical foci are often terrifying weapons, as they can channel their spells through their blows, setting targets on fire with a single strike or withering them with a touch. The most primal of them, the Amber Battlemages of Ghur, also sometimes ride into battle on a war mount called by their ties to the animals. These beasts can be highly variable - tales speak of winged frogs, solar bears, and other monsters - but the most frequent are the two-headed griffons of Ghur, related to the more famous Azyrite griffons but more aggressive and physically stronger. (And, of course, with two heads.)

In addition to Battlemages, the Collegiate Arcane is happy to supply arcane siege weaponry in times of need. The most common is the Luminark of Hysh, a device made from a set of focal lenses formed from refined aetherquartz. Magical energy is focuseed through the lenses, generating a giant laser of purest light. These lasers are powerful enough to blast through fortress walls and slay gargants in a single shot, if you're lucky, and the machines come with a senior White Battlemage whose job is to maintain the exceptionally complex machinery that controls the lensing effect. On top of doing that, these mages are more than capable of firing off their own spells to defend against foes that want to break the Luminark. Rarely, the Collegiate may even offer access to a Celestial Hurricanum. This is a massive orrery that functions as an aetheric vortex, pulling in absolutely absurd amounts of magical energy. The acolytes assigned to operate the Hurricanum are able to channel this power to conjure up a Storm of Shemtek, a massive magical storm that unleashes blazing comets and lightning at any nearby enemy.

In the wake of the Necroquake, the Collegiate has dedicated a lot of time to trying to understand and harness te magic unleashed upon the Realms. Many spellcasters died by the sudden empowerrment of their own spells, but in the days that followed, the Battlemages of Hallowheart found new ways to tap into and even bind living spells. It was dangerous, but allowed these spells to be trapped in voidstone amphorae, from which they could then be unleashed as weapons - dangerous, unpredictable weapons, but theoretically controllable. The Grandmasters of the Collegiate Arcane formed the Order of the Chained Flame to capture or dissipate living spells, though most people just call them the Spell Hunters. They specialize in dispellation and have free license to form up their own mercenary bands to support their hunt of the predatory spells. While they go out to hunt down and destroy the most dangerous of the unleashed wild magics, the Grandmasters have set about dissecting captive spells to understand them better. Rumor has it that they are in the midset of developing yet more dangerous siege weapons, ranging from massive lance-cannons that canfire across the void between realms to negastone arks that drag all nearby objects into a crushing point to even chronomantic tools that can slow down the passage of time for their bearer.



The Freeguilds are the source of most of the military forces of the Free Cities. They are...well, warriors. Normal people who have taken up arms to fight monsters and gods alike in defense of their homes. They stand against the worst things Chaos can throw at them and fight anyway. They aren't so famous as the Stormcast, no, but the Free Cities are built on their sacrifices and their triumphs. Millions of normal humans, duardin and aelves have fought, died and lived for the sake of everyone. Their names may be forgotten by all who didn't know them personally, but they didn't fight to become famous. They fought to protect their families. These are the Freeguild regiments, the guardians of the Free Cities. In theory, each Freeguild can claim descent from one of the twelve tribes that fled to Azyr alongside Sigmar at the start of the Age of Chaos. Certainly their martial traditions largely descend from those groups, who maintained them and trained endlessly throughout the Age. Their descendants still mark themselves with the symbols of their ancient tribes - the Crowned Skull of Penumbra, the Iron Bull of Tarsus, the Sanguine Lady of Flames and more. However, the Freeguilds are no longer exclusively Azyrite. That'd be impractical at best, and also bigoted.

Im practice, fighting and building across the Mortal Realms means a constant recruiting effort is required, and many of the Freeguilds are now made from a majority of Reclaimed soldiers, those that descended from the surviving mortals outside of Hysh. There is still some tension between ethnic Azyrites and Reclaimed, but often it is kept at a dull murmur by the courage and skill the Reclaimed have shown in the Freeguilds as well as their invaluable local knowledge and specialist tactics. Each free city has at least a few Freeguilds, organized into regiments by their Freeguild Generals. These soldiers work as both the city guard and the standing army of the city, and each city often develops its own unique fighting style to take advantage of local terrain. Often, each regiment will maintain unique colors and traditions, though not always - in some cities they operate instead as a unified army with shared uniforms and banners. The Blackshore Guard of Lethis often carry blessed trinkets and enchanted amulets to protect against the ghostly foes that haunt their lands and use musket balls forged from enchanted silver and marked with sigils of banishment. Those of Greywater Fastness use only the most advanced guns available, given the production that goes on in their city, and Anvilgard's were famous for their tenacity and ability to handle even the most hostile environment.

Freeguild soldiers often rely on numbers to make up for their lack of the same mystical armaments as other forces. Even in the brief generations since the Age of Sigmar began, the population of the Free Cities has exploded, between recruiting locals and bringing more colonists in from Azyr. When the Freeguilds mass for war, the operative word is "mass," and each company is made of dozens of men and women, both veterans and new recruits. While often willing, the Freeguilds sometimes utilize conscription to make up their numbers, and in times of need, city districts may be given a quota of soldiers they have to produce. If there aren't enough volunteers, the districts must find a way to make up the gap. In practice, origin and even conscription tend not to matter in the long run for morale - the Freeguild soldiers learn to trust each other, no matter what walk of life they came from or how much wealth they had before joining. The common bond of defending the lives of the Free Peoples, faith in the gods (and particularly Sigmar) and simple survival usually forge them into a united force that fights with shocking skill.

Rising to command rank in the Freeguilds isn't easy. The traditions laid down by Sigmar require the Freeguild Generals to be veterans of many battles, with demonstrated mastery of both strategy and tactics, plus an education in one of the martial colleges of the Free Cities. This ensures that the generals command their forces with skill, exploiting any weakness they spot in the enemy defenses. Many ride into battle atop Azyrite griffons, powerful beasts whose claws and beak can tear iron like it was paper and who are known for intense loyalty once tamed. This allows the General to get an aerial view of the battles they command, tracking them easily to direct their forces in an ideal manner, as wlel as giving them a deadly and terrifying mount that can fight on an equal level with them. Generals also usually carry enchanted, runic weapons to enhance their own combat skills above and beyond the normal requirements of their rank.

The forces that serve as patrol and police forces in their home cities are known as the Freeguild Guard, defensive specialists who form a solid core on the field. They may be armed with spears, swords, rifles or halberds, but poorer regiments may well be armed with simple clubs, farm equipment and a handful of outdated wheel-lock guns. They don't have a nice or easy job - they are the heart of the army, and they have to absorb the strongest enemy forces and blunt their attack. They go into battle knowing that many of them will end up killed by powerful weaponry and magic, and that their victory will always come at a price. They are, after all, reliant more on numbers than anything else. There's no force multiplier quite like determination and home defense, though, and the Freeguild Guard have often taken down foes many times their own size thanks to heroic sacrifices and tenacious efforts.

The Guard are supported by Handgunner formations, who use powerful blackpowder weapons to take down the enemies of the Free Peoples. A well-placed lead shot can take down even a Khornate warlord, after all. For those armies unable to afford enough rifles for the Handgunners, Freeguild Crossbowmen can serve a similar role. Crossbows are often much cheaper and able to be fielded en masse, sending forth rains of bolts in enough number to briefly darken the skies. There are several other specialist formations that strike hard at the enemy while the Guard keep them entangled - most notably, the Greatswords. These warriors are chosen only from the biggest and strongest veterans of the Freeguilds, given expensive and valuable plate armor and immense zweihanders. A Greatswordsman can bisect an orruk in one blow, and they serve as the shock troops for the Freeguilds, carving out holes in the enemy line so the army can make a decisive strike. They tend to enjoy fighting and are famous for raucous singing as they fight.

Freeguild cavalry units also work as shock troopers and raiders. Pistoliers head onto battle on horseback, armed with a large number of disposable long-barrel pistols that they can accurately fire even from horseback and even in the midst of a melee. They are famously brave or infamously reckless, depending on how you look at it, and are often found ranging out far from their home cities to hunt down the enemy and wipe them out. Outriders are more frequently older soldiers, more experienced with their horses, and trusted for long-range recon without getting caught up in needless fights. They are often some of the best marksmen in the Freeguilds, armed with repeater handguns. Each unit of Outriders also gets a single grenade-launcher blunderbuss, able to fire explosive shells that can take out large groups at once with tearing shrapnel.

The deadliest, rarest and most powerful cavalry, however, are the Demigryph Knights, the best warriors in all of the Free Cities. Many can claim descent from the noble bloodlines of Azyrite, as these families typically raise their children practically on horseback and drill them heavily in cavalry combat. Rather than horses, however, the Knights have earned the right to ride demigryphs - powerful Azyrite beasts from the high mountains, which resemble small, wingless hippogriffs. These creatures are no less dangerous than their riders, who are arimed with sigmarite-tipped lances and powerful greatblades. When they charge, the demigryphs are able to leap over enemy spears and smash into them, tearing them apart with vicious beaks and claws.

Next time: The Dispossessed and the Ironweld Arsenal

Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Nov 23, 2020

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer

Cooked Auto posted:

I think the only time our group cared about spell components in our 5e games was when they were really expensive. Otherwise it was just covered via the magic component pouch or a spell focus of some kind.

We tried tracking mundane components when we started playing 2E back in the day, but quickly decided that unless it has a GP cost, it isn't worth keeping tabs on.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



There's probably a way to make spell components interesting in theory, but you'd basically have to turn it into a mini-game and actually bother to integrate it and balance it rather than "o yeah you need a spider and an egg". Like the idea of a wizard who's quietly playing some stream-lined version of Quacks of Quedlinburg and going "O poo poo I pulled another teddy bear out of my component pouch, what can I even do with this," in theory could be pretty fun. But that is not what D&D has ever done.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012

JcDent posted:

OK, Imma gonna ask a thing: what is an example of a good elfgame? Like, where martials don't snooze after their one attack, where exploration and social are actually pillar shaped, where caster supremacy isn't a thing? Does The Good Elfgame even exist?

Shadow of the Demon Lord.

Loxbourne
Apr 6, 2011

Tomorrow, doom!
But now, tea.
The Freeguilds aren't badly written per se, it's just that they replaced something far, far more interesting and flavourful. It's just depressing.

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016





Spell components are literally a joke, like how fireball needed bad poop because you're making gunpowder or how lightning bolt was a glass rod and steel wool to make static electricity.

Gynovore
Jun 17, 2009

Forget your RoboCoX or your StickyCoX or your EvilCoX, MY CoX has Blinking Bewbs!

WHY IS THIS GAME DEAD?!

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

Spell components are literally a joke, like how fireball needed bad poop because you're making gunpowder or how lightning bolt was a glass rod and steel wool to make static electricity.

Yeah, or how Feeblemind was "a handful of glass or clay spheres." The target is losing his marbles.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



TheGreatEvilKing posted:

Spell components are literally a joke, like how fireball needed bad poop because you're making gunpowder or how lightning bolt was a glass rod and steel wool to make static electricity.

O yeah, totally. I wasn't even trying to fix them. I was just mentally toying with if you could make them interesting as a game mechanic and went to something like you have a literal bag full of little chits that you try to assemble into a spell on your turn. Making that work in a party that's not all wizards or is at least a la Ars Magica would probably be really difficult though. It's just a thought experiment anyway.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Nanomashoes posted:

Shadow of the Demon Lord.

Hum, does it have martial maneuvers and stuff? I don't think I got deep enough into the rules for that.

Loxbourne posted:

The Freeguilds AoS fluff today isn't badly written per se, it's just that they replaced something far, far more interesting and flavourful. It's just depressing.

And the best part is hammering the lore around legacy models they haven't squattrd yet!

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado


JcDent posted:

OK, Imma gonna ask a thing: what is an example of a good elfgame? Like, where martials don't snooze after their one attack, where exploration and social are actually pillar shaped, where caster supremacy isn't a thing? Does The Good Elfgame even exist?

Spellbound Kingdoms looks good, though I've not seen it in action sadly.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Loxbourne posted:

The Freeguilds aren't badly written per se, it's just that they replaced something far, far more interesting and flavourful. It's just depressing.

Well the Cities themselves are pretty interesting and serve the Empire Role well.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012

JcDent posted:

Hum, does it have martial maneuvers and stuff? I don't think I got deep enough into the rules for that.

It has a couple that anyone can do and martial classes tend to unlock tons more as they level up. The class system also encourages going martial/magic or martial/rogue dual class. Mages tend to get fewer spells than in D&D and they're a lot more even with the martial classes in terms of damage as well (except Sorcerer, but Sorcerer is such a strong class it nearly breaks the game anyways).

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Xiahou Dun posted:

O yeah, totally. I wasn't even trying to fix them. I was just mentally toying with if you could make them interesting as a game mechanic and went to something like you have a literal bag full of little chits that you try to assemble into a spell on your turn. Making that work in a party that's not all wizards or is at least a la Ars Magica would probably be really difficult though. It's just a thought experiment anyway.

Tabletop or electronic, the only games in which crafting isn’t a plague are ones where crafting is the game’s main point.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

Xiahou Dun posted:

There's probably a way to make spell components interesting in theory, but you'd basically have to turn it into a mini-game and actually bother to integrate it and balance it rather than "o yeah you need a spider and an egg". Like the idea of a wizard who's quietly playing some stream-lined version of Quacks of Quedlinburg and going "O poo poo I pulled another teddy bear out of my component pouch, what can I even do with this," in theory could be pretty fun. But that is not what D&D has ever done.

I like the way WHFRP does it. You have a Magic characteristic that goes from about 1d10 to 4d10. Each spell has a difficulty to cast it. Each spell usually also has some thematically appropriate spell component that you can use to add a bonus to your roll of maybe +1 to +3. You don't have to use the component, but with WH, generally the less dice you can roll from your Magic Char the better because doubles/triples/etc can gently caress you to death easily.

As for D&D the only time I recall spell components being a thing is if the Party got full-on strip-searched captured. Aside from that (and the occasionally really expensive component) we just assumed that the wizard got his stuff while memorizing his spells. Just like we assume the warrior was oiling his armor or cleaning his weapons. Just basic maintenance.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

It's less to help you roll less dice and more that any static modifiers also greatly increase your chance of casting. A guy with Mag 2 trying to cast a CN 11 spell has 50-50 odds. Give them +2 to that and it makes it much more likely. Same reason Channeling is so valuable whenever you can. Similarly it takes some more powerful spells and moves them into a realm where you have a chance of using them earlier. Which is very helpful when you spend the majority of a campaign Mag 2, but Channeling and an Ingredient can give you +2 (for your Mag when Channeling) and +1-3 for the spell component. Even a Wizard Lord wants those static numbers when using the really mighty spells that are CN 25-31; hitting that on 4d10 is not likely. Hitting that on 4d10+7 is much better.

Hence also the temptation of Dark Magic, since it lets you roll an extra unkept die and doesn't have any actual downsides besides 'you now definitely used Dark Magic if anyone saw it' and 'you rolled more dice, so you have a higher miscast chance'.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Everyone posted:

I like the way WHFRP does it. You have a Magic characteristic that goes from about 1d10 to 4d10. Each spell has a difficulty to cast it. Each spell usually also has some thematically appropriate spell component that you can use to add a bonus to your roll of maybe +1 to +3. You don't have to use the component, but with WH, generally the less dice you can roll from your Magic Char the better because doubles/triples/etc can gently caress you to death easily.

As for D&D the only time I recall spell components being a thing is if the Party got full-on strip-searched captured. Aside from that (and the occasionally really expensive component) we just assumed that the wizard got his stuff while memorizing his spells. Just like we assume the warrior was oiling his armor or cleaning his weapons. Just basic maintenance.

O yeah I was totally just theory-crafting if there could in theory be a good game made out of front-loading the spell-component pouch and making it a real front and center part of the gameplay loop rather than a hand-wave. The random stuff out of a sack came to mind because of a novel I read a while ago and thinking about new(er) ways to do randomization in RPG's.

Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.

Xiahou Dun posted:

O yeah I was totally just theory-crafting if there could in theory be a good game made out of front-loading the spell-component pouch and making it a real front and center part of the gameplay loop rather than a hand-wave. The random stuff out of a sack came to mind because of a novel I read a while ago and thinking about new(er) ways to do randomization in RPG's.

It’s possible you could use it as a sort of substitute for the “adventuring day” as spellcasting limiter in a resource-focused dungeon crawl game. You’d need fewer components than D&D has, but if the idea is that you can only carry so many components and then need to either find more or return to town, that could be an interesting way to make spells feel rare and precious that isn’t just “you run out until you sleep.”

I’m not sure if it’d be a lot better but it’d be sort of cool, and might give people reasons to favor some kinds of spells in some dungeons if they know a certain component will be common there or w/e. I think it’s at least a little more interesting than spell slots because it’s based on a thing in the world that you can seek out and otherwise interact with. Of course, “more interesting than spell slots” is a very low bar.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



I ain't exactly making a KickStarter for this. It was just 10 seconds of staring into space, but you're getting the general idea of what I had in mind.

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Servetus
Apr 1, 2010

JcDent posted:

OK, Imma gonna ask a thing: what is an example of a good elfgame? Like, where martials don't snooze after their one attack, where exploration and social are actually pillar shaped, where caster supremacy isn't a thing? Does The Good Elfgame even exist?

How broad is you definition of an Elfgame? Are we actually assuming Fantasy dungeon crawls with pointy-eared people?

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