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GreenMetalSun
Oct 12, 2012

Robindaybird posted:

This is something I've seen over and over again in published campaigns that writers attempt to write a detective module, but completely fail to account for common spells like Zone of Truth and Speak With Dead that will shortcut much of the investigation phase.

Zone of Truth and Speak with Dead aren't particularly good investigation spells, and they're more likely to backfire on you than work. Zone of Truth doesn't compel someone to speak and explicitly does not compel them to tell you the truth (for example, if your witness has decided that Steve is for sure the murderer, that's 'the truth' to them, and the spell will return a result of 'they're telling the truth' even if they only saw someone who might have been Steve). The target of Speak with Dead can lie to you as much as they want, and they might just... y'know, not know who murdered them.

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Heliotrope
Aug 17, 2007

You're fucking subhuman

GreenMetalSun posted:

Zone of Truth and Speak with Dead aren't particularly good investigation spells, and they're more likely to backfire on you than work. Zone of Truth doesn't compel someone to speak and explicitly does not compel them to tell you the truth (for example, if your witness has decided that Steve is for sure the murderer, that's 'the truth' to them, and the spell will return a result of 'they're telling the truth' even if they only saw someone who might have been Steve). The target of Speak with Dead can lie to you as much as they want, and they might just... y'know, not know who murdered them.

That's just "pretend to fix the problem by declaring an ability the PC took doesn't work", which sucks. Either adjust your game to take those into account or explicitly say "Hey I want to run a mystery game, the following spells aren't going to be available."

Prism
Dec 22, 2007

yospos

Heliotrope posted:

That's just "pretend to fix the problem by declaring an ability the PC took doesn't work", which sucks. Either adjust your game to take those into account or explicitly say "Hey I want to run a mystery game, the following spells aren't going to be available."

I don't think 'this spell works exactly the way the book says it does' is 'declaring an ability the PC took doesn't work'.

I know Pathfinder better than 5E, so:

Speak with Dead posted:

You grant the semblance of life to a corpse, allowing it to answer questions. You may ask one question per two caster levels. The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what it knew during life, including the languages it spoke. Answers are brief, cryptic, or repetitive, especially if the creature would have opposed you in life.

If the dead creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive. If successful, the corpse can refuse to answer your questions or attempt to deceive you, using Bluff. The soul can only speak about what it knew in life. It cannot answer any questions that pertain to events that occurred after its death.

Zone of Truth posted:

Creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it) can’t speak any deliberate and intentional lies. Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area. Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth.

Speak with Dead doesn't perfectly compel obedience and Zone of Truth only stops them from telling intentional lies; if they really believe what they're saying, it won't stop them. It also won't stop them from being able to deliberately lie if they make the save.

As mentioned, I don't play 5E, but I looked it up and it's pretty similar; Zone of Truth lets you know if they failed the save or are capable of lying, whether or not they actually do or not, and Speak with Dead doesn't have the alignment hedge so they can always try to deceive you if they don't like you.

Prism fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jul 7, 2022

Heliotrope
Aug 17, 2007

You're fucking subhuman
If, when it's important to the adventure, you decide that actually the person I'm talking to is misinformed/ just doesn't say anything at all or the dead person is hostile and therefor my spells won't do anything...you kind of have set it up so they don't work. It's not even a "you get at least some benefit out of using these spells" - in this case I should have taken different spells so I can actually use my abilities and would have preferred you told me not to take them in the first place. This is more a problem with the system and trying to use it for mysteries, but "Just make so those spells don't do anything" is often a common bit of advice given that is actually bad.

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Quick question before I get into actually writing my review tomorrow.

I'm going to make a Mage character, but I'm debating if I want to see just how badly the system hates Hollow Ones by making one of them, or if I should go with one of the other Traditions that would probably be easier.

Admittedly I'm kinda leaning towards a Son of Ether or Virtual Adept if I don't go with HO.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



joylessdivision posted:

Quick question before I get into actually writing my review tomorrow.

I'm going to make a Mage character, but I'm debating if I want to see just how badly the system hates Hollow Ones by making one of them, or if I should go with one of the other Traditions that would probably be easier.

Admittedly I'm kinda leaning towards a Son of Ether or Virtual Adept if I don't go with HO.

Over the top 90's edgy Euthanatos.

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


joylessdivision posted:

Quick question before I get into actually writing my review tomorrow.

I'm going to make a Mage character, but I'm debating if I want to see just how badly the system hates Hollow Ones by making one of them, or if I should go with one of the other Traditions that would probably be easier.

Admittedly I'm kinda leaning towards a Son of Ether or Virtual Adept if I don't go with HO.

While the system is a little overcomplex and the organization is terrible, I think once you hurdle that latter part the actual character creation is simple enough I would encourage you to make two. It would allow you to demonstrate a bit more of stuff you might want to show off, and in particular also better showcase how wildly wonky things can get by contrasting the two characters.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Heliotrope posted:

If, when it's important to the adventure, you decide that actually the person I'm talking to is misinformed/ just doesn't say anything at all or the dead person is hostile and therefor my spells won't do anything...you kind of have set it up so they don't work. It's not even a "you get at least some benefit out of using these spells" - in this case I should have taken different spells so I can actually use my abilities and would have preferred you told me not to take them in the first place. This is more a problem with the system and trying to use it for mysteries, but "Just make so those spells don't do anything" is often a common bit of advice given that is actually bad.

I wouldn't necessarily say it doesn't yield anything. For instance, if they learn that the corpse is being evasive and doesn't want to tell them things due to some personal issue it has with them or whatever cause they serve, the PC's still learn something about the victim. At the same time, it may let some things slip even if it isn't just giving them the entire solution of the mystery immediately. Same thing with Zone of Truth, it lets them know what the target genuinely believes(assuming they don't pass the save), which still gives them clues as to motivations and what other people understand.

To me it's no real difference from a modern-era mystery where the players as some sort of authority bring someone in for questioning and that person then pleads the fifth or yells "gently caress off, copper, I know my rights," and refuses to cooperate until all they can do is let him go again. While it doesn't answer exactly what they asked, it still tells them that here's someone who has a reason to gently caress things up for them and perhaps bears more looking into.

Player abilities giving them a partial answer that they actually have to think about and make choices based on, rather than just answering a core mystery for them instantly, is not "making their abilities not do anything."

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Xiahou Dun posted:

Over the top 90's edgy Euthanatos.

:getin:

That Old Tree posted:

While the system is a little overcomplex and the organization is terrible, I think once you hurdle that latter part the actual character creation is simple enough I would encourage you to make two. It would allow you to demonstrate a bit more of stuff you might want to show off, and in particular also better showcase how wildly wonky things can get by contrasting the two characters.

Also a very good idea. I'll add that to the weekend to do list.

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.


GimpInBlack posted:

(Hi Erika! I promise I won't abandon this one like I did PATROL!)

So... yeah. About that....

Part Ten: Haves and Have-Nots

Before we dive into the next pair of backgrounds, I realized that when we left off last year (Jesus...), I forgot to talk about the starter plane options for the Farmer and Soldier. So let's fix that. I'm not going to go into a ton of detail here, if you're interested in an extensive overview of every plane in Flying Circus, that's what 11dragonkid's videos are for.

You can tell the Farmer's planes in the Aircraft Catalog by the fact that, just like their moves, every drat one has a Star Wars quote. (Surprisingly, the Mammut Smuggler Custom we saw back in a previous update is not one of them.) As you might expect, all of the Farmer's starter planes are Used, since they're rural kids probably hotrodding some crop duster that's been in their parents' barn for decades. All but one of them predate the start of the Great War, and most of them have a primary function as farm equipment. All of them are a little under-gunned, but also ripe for modification and hot-rodding.

The planes include an old pre-war racing plane that's been home-modified with an interrupter gear and a single machine gun for use as a militia scout, an extremely nimble but very unstable pusher-prop fighter mostly used as a crop duster these days (apparently the pusher prop aids in dispersion), a diesel engine sky tractor (slow as hell, but able to carry a surprising bombload a surprising distance), and an early-model biplane scout with an interrupter gear (less agile than other turnfighters, but also less likely to spin out and kill you--ideal for lightly-trained rural militias). If none of those appeal, you can choose any Used plane that costs 10 thaler or less.

By contrast, the Soldier gets to choose between four New, dedicated warplanes. ("New" doesn't necessarily mean the Soldier's hometown has working aircraft factories--though it might--it could also just mean that they carefully maintain and refurbish their machines, keeping the Used penalties at bay.) Their options include a heavily-armed but sluggish biplane scout, the most agile turnfighter in the game (the Kreuzer Spinne, which was Gunther's plane back in the gameplay example), a solid but unremarkable scout that can carry a couple of bombs, and our first two-seater, a hybrid fighter/observer/bomber. Alternatively, they can spend up to 30 thaler on any New plane of their choice (and it has to be New--the glorious armed forces of Whereversburg would never consent to be seen flying hand-me-downs!)

Now, on to the next backgrounds!


Pants: Fancy. Monocle: Yes.

The Scion is the child of the nobility, whose family survived the end of the world by dint of living in a heavily-fortified mountain castle, probably sitting atop mines or vast, natural caverns--but also by dint of the fact that, with the rise of the old empires and capitalism, the aristocracy just weren't really important enough to bomb during the War. Still, the Scion has an awful lot of wealth and power, and while it's up to them how they use it, the playbook is explicitly structured to highlight the fact that, no matter how "nobly" they use it, possessing that kind of power over others is fundamentally an abuse. It is much, much easier, mechanically speaking, for the Scion to exploit those under her power than to uplift them.

A bit like the hardholder in Apocalypse World, the Scion starts with an Estate: a town that they (or their family) rule. Since Flying Circus is much more of a bildungsroman than Apocalypse World, though, it's rather simpler: it's a town like any other and starts with a Wealth rating of +1. No extra tags or fortunes or anything, but at the beginning of every routine, you roll to see if its fortunes have declined or improved. The Scion can also reduce its Wealth by 1 at any time to gain 10 thaler (we can presume that, if time is not of the essence, the money is couriered to them in a few days, or if it is of the essence, that we're just retroactively establishing some previously-paid tribute). By contrast, if the Scion wants to improve their Estate's wealth, they have to actually go there and pony up 15 thalers or the equivalent in goods or labor (a pro-bono routine counts) to increase its Wealth by +1.

The Scion's Core and Intimacy moves are pretty straightforward: The Scion costs 1 extra thaler in upkeep per routine, and if they can't pay up, they suffer 2 Stress. Like the Soldier, though, they lose their Core move after the second time they Burn Out as they finally get used to "roughing it" (i.e. living like normal people). Their Intimacy move is, of course, about power dynamics: when the Scion is intimate with someone, you decide who takes charge in the encounter, If it's the Scion, they choose a stat to increase by +1 for the next routine. If it's someone else, the Scion immediately clears 2 Stress. If they're intimate in the air, everybody involved gets both benefits.


God drat it, Chappell.

The Scion's personal moves are, of course, all about throwing their weight and money around. They can get the option to roll+their personal Company Value when they Press the Issue (which starts off not that great, since your personal CV starts at 1, but that goes up as you become a Notorious Air Ace), extract more wealth from their Estate, and even annex new towns into their burgeoning little empire. Probably my favorite Scion move is Old Tales, wherein you spin a yarn (which can be utter bullshit) about some glorious past exploit of your family and hold 1. Later, when you do something that either reinforces the moral of the story or defies it, you can spend your hold for Advantage. A great little moral lesson for every episode in one move, and since you can't use the same story twice, it's fun incentive to keep coming up eith increasingly absurd, Munchausen-esque tales.

We didn't really talk about the starting assets or baggage for the other backgrounds, but they do deserve a callout for the Scion, because one of the things they can start with is "a clockwerk attendant and its Key," and I want you to remember that when we get to the Threats section because holy poo poo that's a story hook and a half. Their baggage is all stuff like "your family is disgraced" or "someone else stands to inherit--" stuff that drives home the fact that the lives of a bunch of people depend on the petty family drama of a bunch of rich assholes.

Unsurprisingly, the Scion's plane options are some of the most expensive in the game, and range from a ridiculously over-gunned scout designed for the concept of an "airborne gun line," the equivalent of an Eddie Bauer edition biplane with a bunch of extra luxury features like a high-altitude engine, oxygen mask, and electric heaters, and a couple of ridiculously tough planes designed to keep the precious baby alive, including the delightfully-named "Hugo’s Einzigartiger Stahl-Jagdbomber!," our first all-metal bomber. And yes, the exclamation mark is part of its name. If none of those options appeal, they also have a 45 thaler budget for any New plane they like (which is actually less than some of these starter options: the Königskondor luxury biplane has a sticker price of 70 thaler, and the Hugo's is 65).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g

The Worker is a bit of an outlier in our Backgrounds. Whereas most characters are assumed to be idiot young adults who are doing this to have adventures and try to figure out who they are, the Worker is a grown-rear end adult who's here because they need a goddamn job. They don't have time for all the bullshit, they have people depending on them, and even in a cozy Ghibli-inspired post-apocalypse, capitalism sucks. Alternately, you can play them as someone having a mid-life crisis and getting up to all the stupid debauchery these kids are into these days, even if they should know better.

The Worker's Core move is our first fairly complex one--they have two Dependents, which replace their personal upkeep cost. Each dependent has a track that indicates how secure and taken care of they are, and there's a little confusion here because the playbook sheet shows three spaces on the tracks, but the rules only describe what happens if a Dependent has 0, 1, or 2 marks on their track. So I'm not sure if the playbook sheet is out of date or if the third space is there to be a buffer you can give yourself. In any event, you start the game with 1 mark on one track and 2 marks on the second.

Anyways, when it comes time to pay upkeep for the routine, the Worker has to choose to pay 0, 1, or 2 thaler per dependent. If they pay nothing, they erase 1 mark on the track. If they pay 1, nothing happens. If they pay 2, they describe something special they did for that Dependent and mark another space on the track. For each Dependent with 0 marks, the Worker takes 2 Stress per routine, but for each Dependent with 2 marks, the Worker clears 1 Stress. The Worker also takes 1 Stress any time a Dependent loses a mark. In other words, keeping your dependents happy ends up costing more than other pilots' upkeep, and you'll probably have to argue with those young, responsibility-free punks about why you deserve that extra cash.

Unlike the previous playbooks, there is no mechanism for the Worker to lose this move, so if your Dependents grow up and become self-sufficient adults, die, or you just finally get that Goth recruit you rescued from the brainwashing back to his family, you'll have to address it in the fiction.

The Worker's Intimacy move is much simpler: when they're intimate with others, every PC involved can redistribute their Stress among the other participants. This has to be consensual, and redistributing Stress like this doesn't count as losing Stress (so it doesn't convert to XP), but it can potentially get a bunch of people out of the burnout zone. If NPCs are involved, each PC does actually lose 1 Stress per NPC, and if you do it in the air, everybody loses 1 more Stress.

The Worker's playbook moves are really good, and they start with more of them than other PCs (alternately, they can start with some moves from other backgrounds to represent who they are aside from "cog in capitalist machine"). Their statline options are also really good, but to balance this they pay double XP for all advancement. Their moves, predictably, revolve a lot around stress management, short-circuiting bullshit drama, and being dependable. I particularly like the one where, the first time somebody Vents at the Worker in a routine, they just take 2 XP directly instead of getting Stress they have to burn off, because the Worker isn't bothered by childish outbursts.


God drat it, Chappell!

Like the Workers themselves, their starter plane options are solid and reliable. Also like the Workers themselves, they're all Used. They include a biplane with a goddamn light repeating cannon and an unfortunate tendency to melt the pilot's face off thanks to the high-mount radiator, a couple of solid energy fighters, and a goddamn heavy bomber that hits like a loving truck but has one of the highest upkeep costs in the entire game. Or they can take a modestly-budgeted 15 thaler Used plane of their choice.

Next Time: Weird Kids

thatbastardken
Apr 23, 2010

A contract signed by a minor is not binding!
Yeah!

GimpInBlack posted:

Next Time: Weird Kids


So Weird! The Weirdest!

thatbastardken
Apr 23, 2010

A contract signed by a minor is not binding!

GimpInBlack posted:

The planes include an old pre-war racing plane that's been home-modified with an interrupter gear and a single machine gun for use as a militia scout, an extremely nimble but very unstable pusher-prop fighter mostly used as a crop duster these days (apparently the pusher prop aids in dispersion), a diesel engine sky tractor (slow as hell, but able to carry a surprising bombload a surprising distance), and an early-model biplane scout with an interrupter gear (less agile than other turnfighters, but also less likely to spin out and kill you--ideal for lightly-trained rural militias). If none of those appeal, you can choose any Used plane that costs 10 thaler or less.
Let's take a quick dive into one of these:

The 'Spatz' (Sparrow) is...like the sticker says. Pretty average. You can maybe take one of the common alterations:

Or you can skip ahead to someone else's plane selection for this hot little suggestion:

Hmm. What's a W.O.1?

Oh no, I'm falling down into a singularity of madness!

Oh God, oh gently caress, where am I?

OK, Engine. That looks familiar. Let's see what we can do...

Hmm. Well, it's different. But what does that mean for Lukas Himmelswanderer? Well, compare:


Faster, better acceleration and rate of climb, fractionally better handling, significantly but not ruinously increased fuel consumption. Not bad for 1Þ. Of course, the W.O.1 isn't as easy to get hold of as the Rhona Motorbau Z12, but it's not out of line as a piece of starting equipment - the Arntwerke c.7 Rennflugzeug (Now THIS is air racing) has a Rare engine, albeit one that's been modified rather than coming from the factory.

The plane builder system is amazingly powerful, and completely optional. The most many players would ever want is maybe to install another gun, which doesn't really need anyone to interact with a system that tracks like 20 different inputs into your lateral stability. But once you get comfortable with the game you can spend a lot of time making inadvisable tweaks until your custom monster crashes on takeoff, killing you instantly becomes the plane of your dreams.

Hostile V
May 31, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

Wenn du nicht außer Kontrolle bist, bist du außer Kontrolle.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!


I'll wait until Erika creates the ultimate mobile cities and land dreadnauts RPG with dieselpunk sensibilities she no doubt is working on.

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.

By popular demand posted:

I'll wait until Erika creates the ultimate mobile cities and land dreadnauts RPG with dieselpunk sensibilities she no doubt is working on.

The last time we joked about something like this in the thread she started developing a full-on tank squadron expansion, don't give her any ideas.

GreenMetalSun
Oct 12, 2012

Heliotrope posted:

That's just "pretend to fix the problem by declaring an ability the PC took doesn't work", which sucks. Either adjust your game to take those into account or explicitly say "Hey I want to run a mystery game, the following spells aren't going to be available."

There is not a spell in D&D that produces absolute objective truth (and if there was, it would not be first level), because the writers and developers knew that would be a terrible idea. There are no powers that 'don't work', you made that up, though I don't understand why. The spell works exactly as it says it does in the text, as per the game's intentional design. Any player who has Zone of Truth either knows this already (because they read the publicly available text of the spell), or is going to learn a lesson about actually reading the powers they take instead of regurgitating half-remembered 'OMG THIS IS SO BROKEN U GUIZE' rants from Youtube.

Both Zone of Truth and Speak with Dead have uses, but being your instant 'I WIN INVESTIGATIONS FOREVER' button is not that use.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

GimpInBlack posted:


God drat it, Chappell!

Let me tell you, editing this book was an experience!

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Xiahou Dun posted:

Over the top 90's edgy Euthanatos.

Gee, if joylessdivision wanted that I could just have given them one of my old character sheets.

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Dawgstar posted:

Gee, if joylessdivision wanted that I could just have given them one of my old character sheets.

:allears: I appreciate the thought, but I think I might have hit on a very amusing character idea for my Euthantos which is both edgey and 90's as hell. It's also going to be pretty god drat silly, but it came to me last night and I think it has legs (as far as being a character I make for a review at least).

Prism
Dec 22, 2007

yospos

GreenMetalSun posted:

There is not a spell in D&D that produces absolute objective truth (and if there was, it would not be first level), because the writers and developers knew that would be a terrible idea. There are no powers that 'don't work', you made that up, though I don't understand why. The spell works exactly as it says it does in the text, as per the game's intentional design. Any player who has Zone of Truth either knows this already (because they read the publicly available text of the spell), or is going to learn a lesson about actually reading the powers they take instead of regurgitating half-remembered 'OMG THIS IS SO BROKEN U GUIZE' rants from Youtube.

Both Zone of Truth and Speak with Dead have uses, but being your instant 'I WIN INVESTIGATIONS FOREVER' button is not that use.

It's this (though Zone of Truth is 2nd level).

If you really want to make sure you get exactly what someone knows out of them, you'll have to use one of the mind-based spells. Speaking for PF, there's a low-level one, Share Memory, that can be done only with a voluntary target, and several higher-level ones that don't require that. Mind Probe is probably the most common. But, you know, in that case you're using mind magic against an unwilling target, with all the issues that causes... and they can still try to hide info from you, though it's hard. It still doesn't tell you if they're just wrong, though you might be able to tell more than they did about something they saw if you know more. Share Memory is legitimately very helpful for investigations, though, if a witness is willing to cooperate. I don't know if 5E has an equivalent.

The only way to get objective truth out of magic is to use Retrocognition or similar spells to just look at the event yourself; that's a 7th level spell for wizards so if you have a level 13+ party maybe this won't work. But even then, it doesn't penetrate disguises or hiding or other trickery. You have to do that yourself. (And in the case of Retrocognition you have to know and have access to where it happened; if you cast Retrocognition on an area where a body was found you might only see it being dragged there.)

It is absolutely possible to run a murder investigation in D&D and related games. I've done it in Pathfinder, which is why I keep bringing it up. Spells are helpful forensic tools - sometimes extremely helpful - but they won't solve the case immediately, especially if you don't have access to the big guns of magic yet. Honestly, in my experience, the urban ranger and the rogue did far more useful work than the wizard did.

Prism fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Jul 7, 2022

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 12 hours!
I haven't actually played Mage since the 90s, and the last mage I played was a Euthanatos who was a sort-of Tarantino movie protagonist. Good times.

Quackles
Aug 11, 2018

Pixels of Light.


GreenMetalSun posted:

There is not a spell in D&D that produces absolute objective truth (and if there was, it would not be first level), because the writers and developers knew that would be a terrible idea.

So, who did shoot J.R.?

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!


Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

By popular demand posted:

I'll wait until Erika creates the ultimate mobile cities and land dreadnauts RPG with dieselpunk sensibilities she no doubt is working on.

So basically Mortal Engines: The Game?

GimpInBlack posted:

The last time we joked about something like this in the thread she started developing a full-on tank squadron expansion, don't give her any ideas.

No! Give her ideas. Give her all the ideas!

Edited to avoid double-posting:

GreenMetalSun posted:

There is not a spell in D&D that produces absolute objective truth (and if there was, it would not be first level), because the writers and developers knew that would be a terrible idea. There are no powers that 'don't work', you made that up, though I don't understand why. The spell works exactly as it says it does in the text, as per the game's intentional design. Any player who has Zone of Truth either knows this already (because they read the publicly available text of the spell), or is going to learn a lesson about actually reading the powers they take instead of regurgitating half-remembered 'OMG THIS IS SO BROKEN U GUIZE' rants from Youtube.

Both Zone of Truth and Speak with Dead have uses, but being your instant 'I WIN INVESTIGATIONS FOREVER' button is not that use.

Here in the real world where we live we have fingerprinting and security camera and DNA testing. Those catch a lot of the dumber, lazier criminals. But we also have criminals that know about those things and take countermeasures against them and that will also be true in the D&D world. It doesn't mean those methods don't work. It means that they won't just do the work for you and the greatest crime-solving power you have is still going to have to be the three pounds of watery meat inside your skull.

Everyone fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jul 7, 2022

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!



Never watched the movie, I just to command a mobile city fighting off dieselpunk spidertanks.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

GreenMetalSun posted:

There is not a spell in D&D that produces absolute objective truth (and if there was, it would not be first level), because the writers and developers knew that would be a terrible idea. There are no powers that 'don't work', you made that up, though I don't understand why. The spell works exactly as it says it does in the text, as per the game's intentional design. Any player who has Zone of Truth either knows this already (because they read the publicly available text of the spell), or is going to learn a lesson about actually reading the powers they take instead of regurgitating half-remembered 'OMG THIS IS SO BROKEN U GUIZE' rants from Youtube.

Both Zone of Truth and Speak with Dead have uses, but being your instant 'I WIN INVESTIGATIONS FOREVER' button is not that use.

That's not my point, my point is the writers almost never take of those spells into account - leaving DM to either having to go 'Module says no', or figure out how to remap the module path, or make up answers that won't reveal the entire plot because the murder as described gives the dead no reason to be cagey.

Players would be rightfully annoyed at the first because they waste spell slots and time pursuing logical leads - the latter would be an annoyance for DMs.

GreenMetalSun
Oct 12, 2012

Robindaybird posted:

That's not my point, my point is the writers almost never take of those spells into account - leaving DM to either having to go 'Module says no', or figure out how to remap the module path, or make up answers that won't reveal the entire plot because the murder as described gives the dead no reason to be cagey.

Players would be rightfully annoyed at the first because they waste spell slots and time pursuing logical leads - the latter would be an annoyance for DMs.

I can't speak to D&D adventures, but certainly every single Pathfinder AP has a 'What if the players use Zone of Truth/Speak with Dead/etc.' or a 'Here's how this villain will answer/evade answering questions if captured alive', or a 'here are the facts this person knows', sidebar. One AP even has a serial killer familiar enough with those spells to mutilate the faces of his victims specifically to piss off people trying to use Speak with Dead to catch him.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
Good Lord, Flying Circus. I get that it's meant to be a sex-positive game but then there's being gratuitously horny.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!


Eh, so long as this is where it ends we can handle it.
Also I imagine the players giggling over that daddy reference.

Pakxos
Mar 21, 2020

Cythereal posted:

Good Lord, Flying Circus. I get that it's meant to be a sex-positive game but then there's being gratuitously horny.

Can you give an example of being sex-positive that is horny without being gratuitous? Because by the standards of some of what's been covered in this thread, Flying Circus is practically mormon.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

By popular demand posted:

Never watched the movie, I just to command a mobile city fighting off dieselpunk spidertanks.

Well, sure. How dead would your soul have to be to not want to do that?

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 12 hours!

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

By popular demand posted:

Also I imagine the players giggling over that daddy reference.

A lot of the overt sexual references are deliberately corny and supposed to make you groan.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Pakxos posted:

Can you give an example of being sex-positive that is horny without being gratuitous? Because by the standards of some of what's been covered in this thread, Flying Circus is practically mormon.

Blue Rose comes immediately to mind.

Maybe I just have a low tolerance for corny 'lol they fuckin' jokes.

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



July 7th update:

Chapters 1-5 have been written up. I've been writing pretty much all day since 7am and just stopped because I'm struggling to stay focused and coherent.

I haven't read back over it yet so I'm not sure about the flow but I feel pretty good about. Plenty of chastising White Wolf though I can promise you that!

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



joylessdivision posted:

July 7th update:

Chapters 1-5 have been written up. I've been writing pretty much all day since 7am and just stopped because I'm struggling to stay focused and coherent.

I haven't read back over it yet so I'm not sure about the flow but I feel pretty good about. Plenty of chastising White Wolf though I can promise you that!

You’re doing the Lord’s work.

The Lord of lovely rear end 90’s White Wolf.

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Xiahou Dun posted:

You’re doing the Lord’s work.

The Lord of lovely rear end 90’s White Wolf.

I gotta justify the money I spent on eBay acquiring these stupid books.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



joylessdivision posted:

I gotta justify the money I spent on eBay acquiring these stupid books.

God I hope you set aside the money for like a liter of Evan Williams or something to get you through it.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




Cythereal posted:

Good Lord, Flying Circus. I get that it's meant to be a sex-positive game but then there's being gratuitously horny.

You should maybe skip the novel. It's really good but yeah, they fuckin'.

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open_sketchbook
Feb 26, 2017

the only genius in the whole fucking business
all i'm really hearing here is that after im done the tanks i need to make a flying circus expansion where i really take the limiters off and go Full Horny

really put things in perspective

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