Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Serf posted:

ah yes, the famous concept of a communist monarchy
The Chinese mind has a genetic predisposition to prefer emperors. If you disagree, you don't understand Confucianism. Now, regarding the Russian mind...

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Serf posted:

i'd like to refer you to my measurements of the bumps on the russian skull. very troublesome numbers!
Many people are saying this!

kommy5 posted:

Maybe they have learned the deep truths of Juche as being the true nature of communism.
If they understood Juche Thought they would have immediately cloned Comrade General Kim il Sung, the Ever Victorious Iron Willed Brilliant Commander, Who is a Perfect Incarnation of the Appearance That a Leader Should Have. These Trotskyist wolves, who have swallowed whole the formalism and dogmatism of the restorationist reactionaries, are running dogs for the capitalist imperialists who even now levy every kind of pressure and slander against our efforts to apply Marxism-Leninism creatively in accordance with our situation and with the guidance of our Dear Leader, the Sun of the Communist Future.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




People still get leprosy, too.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Ripping off all of this for the Dungeonbrawl game I'll eventually run. Slamwise goes in the battle royale with Jake the Drake, Umber Hulk Hogan, and the Macho Modron.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




I was going to make a Peter Thiel joke but I already planned a dungeon run by a fascist vampire

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Wizards! No sense of right and wrong or game design!

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




That's the thing; armor-piercing is hard to handle in systems like D&D where the whole attack/defense mechanic is built around armor.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




I think I've actually reached the point where I feel bad about making fun of Monte Cook, because there's nothing really to say but the truth: he has little in the way of imagination.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Sep 16, 2019

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




That's something I really wanted to talk about, particularly with regard to Vampire. A problem with writing legends and rumours into your setting is that if something is rumoured to exist, it exists. What are you gonna do, say "Nah, that's bullshit" and not take your fans' money to publish a sourcebook about it?

The impending End Times in all of the classic WoD games was a great parallel to the looming sense of dread at the end of the millennium. But having all the legends turn out to be true really messes with the theme. The Vampire developers could certainly have said "Yes, Caine and the Antediluvians are dead. The Jyhad is just paranoia feeding paranoia, a cycle of violence that no one knows how to stop." But that was never going to happen.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Well, that's not an inaccurate description of what they did in the Gehenna book when it came 'round. Depending on which scenario you're playing.

The one "LOL no" that stuck out to me was Set. Yeah, sorry, your eeevil snake religion is bullshit! Typhon is dead, or he's just going to eat all his loyal children for breakfast when he wakes up.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




It seems to me that Caitiff fell to the wayside as an idea, being replaced by Thin-Bloods. But Caitiff stuck around all the way through the old WoD and into V5.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




The Mask ability has an exception for environmental damage. It encourages you to deal with them by luring them into a place where they can be burned, drowned, poisoned, etc. instead of trying to fight them.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Staging a fight between two types of antagonists seems pointless for anything other than playtesting the mechanics involved.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Are the Zeky based on that one Promethean from a bit of fiction in a Hunter supplement, who's a vory v zakone gangster who inflicts cancer on everyone he's around? That's fine, but I was fine with that guy being a sui generis horror.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Outside of some goofs in the franchise here and there, Jason doesn't really chase people, he's a territorial predator. Then again, Michael Myers is also given as an example of a Mask, and he's all about stalking targets for inexplicable reasons.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




:birddrugs: PARTY HARD :catdrugs:

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Kurieg posted:

It could be that, it perhaps would have been good if it was that, but it's not. The issue is that beast rather clumsily welds itself to LGBTQ people as a metaphor for being born some way and not being able to control it. "I have to mind-rape people and it's not right for you to tell me I can't." It also casts Jocks and Conservatives as the main villains of the book while also stating that such people are actually systemically immoral and thus okay to kill, and that if they were moral they would accept Beasts for what they are and help them mind-rape people. Also the players guide completely gave the game away and introduced a splat of beasts who are cursed with urges to literally physically rape people, and states that they should be applauded for having the wherewithal and mental fortitude to go even one day without raping people, and not blamed for their actions if they give into their impulses.
I've heard people knock Changeling: The Dreaming as having been written by geeks with bad childhoods. Beast is like that, but the geek in question is an Anime Nazi.

JcDent posted:

I'd like a bullet-point list of the Gehenna scenarios!
Happy to oblige. For some necessary background: Gehenna kicks off when a Red Star appears in the sky that causes all vampires to get weaker and weaker and lose their powers, which sets off a frenzy of diablerie. Then, in most scenarios, the Antediluvians start waking up.

Wormwood: There's no escape from the Red Star. Kindred gradually die out except for a handful who are chosen by God. For 40 days and 40 nights they have to stay in the church and fight their own hunger. The faithful become human again, the wicked are smited, and that's how God ends the Curse of Caine. This was the scenario that most emphasized "personal horror" over intrigue and kewl vampyre powarz, and I believe it was Justin Achilli's favourite.

Fair is Foul: Lilith returns with her own team of Antediluvians to whip Caine's rear end. She's also adopted a little girl, for some reason, who gets involved with the PCs, for some reason. The little girl has prophetic visions, because she drank Lilith's blood, and because it's a very cliche plot device to get a group of characters to go where the script needs them to go. Anyway, Lilith is going to kick Caine's rear end, which will destroy all the vampires, so the PCs' best bet is to suck up to Lilith and be her good little minions. There are multiple opportunities to side with other Antediluvians against Lilith, all of which are suicide, not that you have any way of figuring that out.

Nightshade: The Tzimisce Antediluvian turns into a giant Thing-Blob-monster in the sewers of NYC, which blows the lid off the Masquerade. Jan Pieterzoon starts doing True Blood style damage control ("We're loyal American taxpayers with, uh, a blood disease...") and begins reforming the Camarilla into a new sect that can survive Gehenna and the end of the Masquerade. The PCs go on a world-spanning Tomb Raider style adventure to exotic locales and lost cities. The weakening of the blood is bad for them, but it also means they can fight Antediluvians they come across as boss monsters. If the PCs play their cards right, Saulot sacrifices himself for humankind, and the they're among the vampires who become human instead of just dying.

Crucible of God: Similar to Nightshade, but the Masquerade ends thanks to a cameraman catching the PCs doing something supernatural on tape. Again, the Camarilla scrambles to normalize vampirism and assimilate. This is all for nought, because the Antediluvians wake up and go hog wild. The world turns to poo poo as it becomes the battleground for the Antediluvians to play Fortnite, and passes through several "reigns" with one Antediluvian loving everything up until another emerges to eat them. This culminates in Tzimisce almost succeeding in turning every living thing into a Vicissitude monster, with Saulot once again hatching a plan to basically beg God to fix the loving mess He made. The possible endings range from "the Earth dies" to "your campaign is now a kickass post-apoc mutant hexcrawl, why didn't you just play Nightlife?"


Abrahamic Gods! No sense of right and wrong!

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Sep 19, 2019

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




OvermanXAN posted:

... Now, obviously, it entirely depends on how they actually are are in play, but all of those aside from Lilith's Happy Fun Railroad Of gently caress You If You Go Off Script sound actually kinda fun?
Sure, I'm not trying to dunk on the book as a whole, I'm just giving you the very very short version. They can be fun depending on how your ST runs them, and how they employ and juggle the optional subplots.

Coming back to it years later, the most bleak and depressing one is Wormwood. God's a douche! And your only shot at survival is being a goody good little bitch! I guess it's Gothic-Punk in the sense that the universe is an unjust hierarchy from top to bottom, and you absolutely can't do anything about it besides sell out or die.

With all the other scenarios, they will be good or bad depending on how much the ST makes you stand around watching the Antediluvians do stuff, and if they make it so that your only chance is to play vampire errand boy.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Just the vampires. All of the scenarios involve all the vampires either dying or becoming human again, ending vampirism forever (except some possible alternate endings).

In Wormwood, the Antediluvians don't play a meaningful role, and there's little collateral damage from all the vampires withering away and dying. In Fair is Foul, most of the action boils down to a Demigod Bumfight in an alley. (Yes, literally in an alley.) It's definitely a net positive for the world.

In Nightshade and Crucible, the end of Kindred is a Gotterdamerung that collapses global civilization and potentially ends all life on earth.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




:justpost:

Night10194 posted:

'Per test to continue adventure, even unto the end of days and the final conflict' is also an extreme level of 90s.
Gehenna has this too. There are points in multiple scenarios where you have to make some roll not to go into a murderous frenzy, or to turn back into a human instead of turning to dust, or to survive the coterie getting caught in an explosion. These are often unfair and uneven (much depends on your Generation and the status of your Clan's founder). It's typically justified as hey, this is a grim and gritty game, unlife's not fair.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




So vampires are mafiosos, werewolves are street gangs, mages are detectives, hunters are vigilantes, demons are spies, Prometheans are homeless. Geists are...Wobblies?

megane posted:

e: or wait, is it that the GM pretends to roll for it, because the winner is already predetermined by metaplot? Because that might be even better.
For the most part, yeah! Either the winner of the Cosmic Bumfight is predetermined, or it's "If the PCs go down Path A, Saulot wins, if they go down Path B, Tzimisce wins." And sometimes it's "If the PCs go down Path A, Saulot wins and now they've screwed themselves. That plan was suicide." It doesn't hinge on die rolls, nor tactics, but strategy--with no built-in way to know which is the best strategy!

Besides the railroad*, the other problems are that Vampire isn't built to handle big superhero streetfights, and they're unclear on how to handle the Antediluvians. The Red Star makes it possible to fight them, sometimes, but the book also goes on and on (and on and on) about how these NPCs are beyond mechanics.


*So many hobo metaphors!

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Sep 19, 2019

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




The Glass Walkers scenario sounds like a hoot, and the Red Talons one is exactly the kind of thing those idiots would do.

Like why do you need the Black Spiral Dancers when there are Red Talons? Like the Sabbat with fleas.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Didn't the Mage book also have an "asteroids are falling and there's nothing you can do about it" one?

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Zyzyzrk is so weird. Like a powerlifter in dominatrix gear with a bullwhip who lives in a giant yonic kaiju shows up and you're like "Mommy" but she just wants to scream and kill people.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Nessus posted:

And the end game where Tremere, currently in a 4th generation body, uses hella Thaumaturgy and the Mormon genealogy (as a substitute for the True Name of humanity at large) to a. reduce his Generation back to Antediluvian and b. uh, something, I think he wanted to briefly Dominate everyone else incl. vampires to go look at the sunrise (present company excepted). I believe this has several endings, including Tzimisce boiling out of his mouth after he distills his blood back to 3rd or even 2nd generation and saying "gg no wp"
I don't really understand why the body-hopping shenanigans of Saulot, Tremere, and Tzimisce play such a big role in Gehenna.

quote:

Yeah I'm legitimately surprised she never came up in discussions on SA before now, as far as I can tell.
I only know who Zhyzhak is because I played Rage, and she got a writeup in the sourcebook for the card game.

Maybe I have my timeline wrong, but I'll speculate that they got the art, decided they didn't want their dominatrix NPC to actually be a dominatrix, so made her an asexual psycho killer who wears fetish gear for no particular reason.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.







:stonk:

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Sep 19, 2019

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




The Z'igg'rau'g'l'r'r''''''''' thing was always weird to me because they were just one little weird bit in the 2nd edition corebook, as I recall. Did they build them into a major threat over the course of the metaplot?

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




You also have vital stats in each game line that don't apply to other characters. How much Banality does a vampire have?

This created the very weird situation where vampire PCs were bound to be more humane than mages and werewolves, because Humanity.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Mummy was originally a supplement for Vampire, and I have no idea why they were spun off into their own product line, with a completely burn-it-down-and-rebuild-it new mythos that nobody asked for. I may eventually review M:tR out of spite.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




What I mean is, Mummies were originally a breed apart from the standard WoD formula. Your PCs have been crossing between the mortal and spirit worlds for thousands of years. There were also no splats, just political factions with no mechanical differences between them.

When they made Mummy: the Resurrection, they decided that the metaplot origin should be all the Mummies getting blown to astral smithereens. Now Mummies are people who became monsters last week, with splats, like every other White Wolf game. I've never met anyone who could argue that the game had any reason to exist, even for people who were already WoD junkies.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




"Banality" was an extremely childish concept in the first place, and if you weren't a Changeling, it was almost entirely to your benefit to be treated as if you had Banality 10. In Old Changeling, the most important part of NPC Banality was that it makes it harder to cast spells on them.

Changeling's cantrip system is extremely hosed. It was meant to be flexible without being as universal as Mage, but in practice having both Arts (your spells) and Realms (what you can cast spells on) means more stuff you have to spend XP on before you can do anything.

Getting a spell to work typically cost a fuckton of Glamour. The system treated Glamour like Blood Points, but a vampire getting blood is way, way easier than a Changeling getting a few points of Glamour.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Night10194 posted:

This seems very unusual for a vampire. I thought all the ancient ones were supposed to be bugfuck crazy abominations from beyond on some level.
Saulot has a unique and convoluted backstory worthy of Big Two comics. The short version is that he's the "good" Antediluvian, who invented Golconda and sired the Salubri clan, a weird rare clan with healing powers. The Tremere became vampires by diablerizing Saulot, and persecuted the Salubri to hide their crimes.

There was a general implication--eventually confirmed in Gehenna--that Antediluvians can't really die at the hands of a lesser vampire, and diablerizing one doesn't really put you on their level. Saulot's soul bounces around in Tremere's body for centuries until he eventually takes control in 1998. Tremere is also infected with Vicissitude, which is really going to be a problem for Saulot. So it's pretty fair to call Saulot a "bugfuck crazy abomination." As for his state of mind, his plan has always been to redeem Kindred and end the Curse of Caine, but he's a very ends-justify-the-means kinda guy.

For example, Saulot also sired the Baali clan, for reasons that are open to interpretation. They're a clan of devil-worshipers so insane that even the Sabbat has a kill-on-sight policy. But the Baali are very good infiltrators, and what better place to hide than a sect that tolerates depravity and models its rituals on blaspheming the Catholic Church?

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Sep 20, 2019

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Saulot's not seeking some absurd notion of balance. He believes that the Curse of Caine can only be ended in a very specific and nigh-impossible way that involves forcing Caine's hand and/or getting a chance to talk to God Himself. (Depending on the Gehenna scenario you go with, he's probably right.) He'll do whatever is necessary to bring that about. Like, in the Fair is Foul scenario, he's trying to stop Lilith because he believes that if Caine is killed by anyone other than God or himself, it will unleash Armageddon.

As for the Baali thing: even before Gehenna rewrote every Discipline 10 power as "Plot Device," this power was a plot device. It's different depending on what sourcebook you read. It requires Daimonion 10, a lengthy ritual, a massive human sacrifice, and destroys your character. Since there are canonically no 3rd Generation Baali, this isn't really a power but a scenario, where the PCs have to stop a Baali from diablerizing an Antediluvian and performing a ritual to summon the Devil. If they pull it off, what happens next is up to the Storyteller, but you're encouraged to whip out some real Prince of Darkness, Mouth of Madness kinda poo poo.

I think it would be fun to include in a Gehenna scenario, where a Baali manages to eat a weakened Antediluvian and summon Lucifer, and the PCs have to deal with it. I know absolutely nothing about Demon: the Fallen, though, and I'd want that for background.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 20, 2019

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Lord_Hambrose posted:

Saulot hung out with a bunch of Kindred of the East guys, so he was down with some weird stuff.
He also killed a whole loving lot of them, according to Gehenna, but I don't know why.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Sep 20, 2019

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Requiem is designed to give you ideas and tools to design your campaign. It focuses on establishing theme, mood, and atmosphere in a living, breathing city. Instead of metaplot, it gives you possible secret origins that you can use, combine, or discard according to taste.

There's no canon timeline going back thousands of years, no convoluted metaplot with contradictions and retcons. This makes for a better game, but Masquerade made for better reading on the toilet and then arguing online.

JcDent posted:

You know, you learn of VtM from Bloodlines, and it feels tidy! 8-ish clans of variable weirdness and the Tzimitche as weirdo outcasts, ghouls and thinbloods, and oh, what this, a Chinese vampire?

Then you read about the RPG and suddenly, there's clans upon clans...
Not only are there Clans, there are Bloodlines, which are (usually) functionally the same, but rare special snowflakes who don't have an Antediluvian founder. And then they made subclans! There are two types of Brujah, two types of Tzimisce, two types of Gangrel, three types of Salubri, three types of Assamite, and don't ask me what's going on with the African vampires.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Sep 20, 2019

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




To be honest, I haven't kept up with how the whole setting fits together since the transition to calling it the Chronicles of Darkness and all that. I was horribly confused by them introducing a new edition of V:tR in the form of Blood and Smoke: the Strix Chronicle and a new WoD corebook in the form of The God Machine Chronicle.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




It's like the opposite of oWoD metaplot! Confronting it and making it relevant to your game requires going out of your way to do so.

Whereas oWoD wrote stuff into the metaplot like "Your Clan left the Camarilla. And you over there? You're dead."

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




I'm doing WoD:Combat eventually if nobody else gets there first! Actually, yeah, since I did Street Fighter I kinda have to do it.

Kurieg posted:

Spending time in torpor for extended periods of time messes up your memories but also Torpor does some weird magical poo poo where it will give you memories and languages that you need to survive once you wake up. You'll be slightly out of date but more "That's not how you use a touchscreen, grandpa" and less "Please stop calling it a mechanical velocipede."
Uh, well, although it doesn't last for centuries, torpor fucks with your memories in some very hilarious ways...hilarious because you're probably obsessive and vengeful, being an old vampire and all.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Geists are the working-class labor activists to Mage's academic Marxists, with a generous dash of "mystery cult" thrown in for flavor.
Hallelujah, I'm a ghost
Hallelujah, ghost again
Hallelujah, give us some Plasm to revive us again

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply