|
skasion posted:It’s right in the intro what you’re up to. There’s a curse on the land which makes “every pain of the soul” manifest in the world. The player character’s name isn’t just a spooky sounding name, it’s the justification for what he’s doing. It’s penance. Deogracias is guiding you in how to do that, like a confessor, by accumulating holy wounds that correspond (sort of) to the elements of the sacrament of penance. manifesting "every pain of the soul" is vague as poo poo yes, the macguffins you get have catholic names, but how does that tie into the world? why are you eviscerating churchmen if you're doing penance? i thought it was some kind of ritualized test or initiation (i.e., supported by the religious power structures), but Bad Voice Actress made it clear that you're committing sacrilege. none of this makes sense.
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 15:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:39 |
|
|
i took the miracle to be like the warhammer god slaneesh who came into being due to the eldar society becoming totally overtaken by hedonism and decadence (and almost wiped out their civilization). the miracle was birthed by a society devoted to mortification of the flesh reaching some level of transcendence. it's why the church calls it the miracle and wants to protect it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:00
|
|
|
so were you trying to stop the monsters? I thought the monsters were just a test to see if you were pure enough and if you get to become the next last son of the miracle. Was PO supposed to be opposing the miracle? if so whoops I missed it. I thought Cristina just didnt believe in you as a holy figure, it's not surprising an aspiring saint might be called a heretic. (she does the exact same thing you do in the intro) No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:08
|
|
|
skasion posted:It’s right in the intro what you’re up to. There’s a curse on the land which makes “every pain of the soul” manifest in the world. The player character’s name isn’t just a spooky sounding name, it’s the justification for what he’s doing. It’s penance. Deogracias is guiding you in how to do that, like a confessor, by accumulating holy wounds that correspond (sort of) to the elements of the sacrament of penance. It's specifically a weird nightmare vision of a version of Christianity with tangible physical power but without any of the concepts of mercy or compassion that go along with the dark stuff about blood and penance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:14
|
|
|
I'm about 60ish percent in I think. Just got to to the library. I'm actually liking the story at this point, even if I don't understand much of the references to actual Catholicism. I went to Catholic school, but I guess they don't teach you the real poo poo in NE USA! So far the story seems not too hard to follow. Whatever the spiritual power is in the world has cursed the land with a "miracle" that turns sinners into monsters. A lot of people still revere this spiritual higher power despite how grotesque the miracle is on its face (I guess kinda like real life Catholics). You're from some brotherhood that has a vow of silence. At this point the player character motivation isn't clear, but I don't think that's a bad thing in a metroidvania. I don't expect the same type of storytelling I would in a book or a TV show. Different mediums have different acceptable conventions. I really like when you find the guy who's been chronicling your story standing by the tree, and he tells you the story of the first miracle. He's finally standing up, and he's totally in awe of what to him is this holy symbol. Kinda gives some clarity to the feelings of the denizens of this world.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:15
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:It's specifically a weird nightmare vision of a version of Christianity with tangible physical power but without any of the concepts of mercy or compassion that go along with the dark stuff about blood and penance. There’s a tiny bit of that, the wound-kissing guys
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:18
|
|
|
Well, it certainly was a miracle, after all. Supernatural and immense power made manifest in what happened to the First Penitent. Considering their entire church was founded after this happened, it makes sense they'd found a church based on extreme penitence and suffering, since that's apparently what God was cool with and decided to listen to It seems pretty coherent to me so far. skasion posted:There’s a tiny bit of that, the wound-kissing guys Who also seem to doubt the Miracle some, same with the guy you give the pieces of the unburied to, who believes the woman you're finding is unjustly punished. The people who show real compassion and mercy seem to be the ones who doubt the Miracle's divinity a bit, which is interesting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:20
|
|
|
skasion posted:There’s a tiny bit of that, the wound-kissing guys and some of the item lore like the woman who took prisoners' pain into herself until she was just finally screaming all the time. i liked a lot of the vignettes like her and the saint who burnt her face out of humility.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:21
|
|
|
i thought they became wound kissers because they realized doing so actually was healing people.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:22
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:i thought they became wound kissers because they realized doing so actually was healing people. Yeah, the stuff on their order you get from the items you find has them realizing this was genuinely working to close peoples' wounds and treat their sickness and take away their pain.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
Ok I'll just copy and paste this from the KS updates which are available to us backers. The History of Orthodoxia Isolated from the rest of the world, religion is of paramount importance to the Orthodoxians: superstition runs amok throughout the land and fervent prayer coupled with constant penitence is the only way of life. Churches and chapels outnumber people two to one, the congregation live their lives in constant fear of divine retribution while at the same time operating under the mentality that the fear they are experiencing is a blessing and should be regarded as sacred. All of Orthodoxia has long been ruled over by a powerful and ruthless theocracy, lead by the High Pontiff, with the highest bishops serving directly beneath him. They preach their merciless doctrine to the congregation tirelessly, unsatisfied until it is evident that entire congregation share the same terror that they themselves feel at the prospect of being at the mercy of God’s wrath. The smallest of sins are held in the absolute highest contempt and are punished accordingly with the most severe of sentences, unapologetic in their cruelty. The Twisted One The Orthodoxian religion revolves around one omnipotent God: The Twisted One, a god typically depicted humanoid in appearance with grossly and terribly contorted limbs. While The Twisted One is the sole God worshipped in Orthodoxia, there are also lesser icons thought worthy of prestige and devotion such as renowned Virgins, Saints and infamous Martyrs. The Story of the Turned Throne and the Burnt Tree The High Pontiff would spend his days preaching and lecturing the congregation, warning them of the horrific and macabre repercussions by their one true God should they ever lapse into a life of sin. He lavished in his role as The Twisted One’s most senior devotee, rarely leaving the sanctuary of the Great Cathedral where his ornate, golden throne resided amidst various other ostentatious displays of the Church’s wealth such as intricate carvings of gold depicting previous instances of the God’s terrible punishments. Despite all of his best efforts, The High Pontiff could not escape the conviction that both he and the congregation were failing to rise up to and meet the various expectations of the unforgiving God; riddled with frustration at their insufficient devotion, in an act of desperation The High Pontiff heaved his golden throne with all of the strength he could muster and turned the entire throne around. He then stood and solemnly vowed to never again turn back or cast his eyes on the faces of the miserable congregation until The Twisted One granted him the guidance to redeem his people. Days turned into weeks, weeks turned into months, and months turned into years; and still The High Pontiff, defying belief and reason, remained rooted to that very same spot in silent meditation, waiting for a sign. The congregation returned to the Great Cathedral day after day in an effort to observe some kind of divine message to no avail. This age has since been referred to as the Age of the Turned Throne. Years passed before it seemed that something was beginning to change: branches began to emerge from the ends of his fingers then all over his dead, withered body. The branches grew out from his arms, head, feet and legs winding outwards continuously until one could no longer see where the High Pontiff ended and the branches began. This growth accelerated so dramatically that the High Pontiff was soon entirely transformed into a great, withered and barren tree, great branches extended ever outwards, destroying everything in their path until they finally broke through the Great Cathedral’s ceiling. The Bishops and Cardinals were aghast. Lacking any appropriate reasoning or explanation, they cried out accusing The High Pontiff of the worst possible variety of heresy. For what else could have prompted The Twisted One to commit such an act? Now in the absence of a High Pontiff, the Bishops and Cardinals grew greedy, eyeing the vacant throne with lust in their eyes. Blinded by their desire, they ordered for the great tree to be sacrificially burned in a terrible ritual that was reserved for only the most terrible of sins. For ninety days and ninety nights the tree burned incessantly. The Cathedral was filled with a fierce lament emanated from within the tree. Ash piled up in great heaps within and surrounding the Cathedral, engulfing everything but the turned throne that remained above the ashes, pristine and golden. Such was their single-minded enthusiasm that they did not notice the mountain begin to shift beneath them and before long it had swallowed up each and every one of them. Even the congregation were not unscathed - every single person disappeared into the dark pile of ash and not a single voice was to be heard. Seasons changed and decades passed by unnoticed until finally a great, ravishing flood came. Violent storms battered the Great Cathedral until it collapsed under the strain, its mighty ceiling caving inwards, lashings of water washing away the ash. From the wet, dank ashes rose those unfortunate souls who had been swallowed years ago, transformed into horrible and bloodthirsty beasts, left with nothing but their faith. The final being to emerge from the ashes was The High Pontiff himself but not in any recognisable form; he has been transformed into the most frightening beast that ever walked the land. This is the Age of Corruption. Basically the setting was ALWAYS religiously zealous, but events like the "First Miracle" at the tree in Mother of Mothers followed by the High Pontiff's take just sent things into full blown overdrive. doomrider7 fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Sep 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
This God sure loves turning people into trees!
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 16:47
|
|
|
Bonaventure posted:lol you do realize that the word cenobite refers to monks and convents right skasion posted:The game isn’t trying to show what catholic societies are actually like. It’s showing how a world composed of purely catholic ideas would be incredibly hosed up, cruel, inscrutable, futile, and cursed. [e] quote:From the wet, dank ashes rose those unfortunate souls who had been swallowed years ago, transformed into horrible and bloodthirsty beasts, left with nothing but their faith.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 17:31
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:Yes, that was entirely my point, really: that the whole thing just comes across not making enough actual sense for the setting to feel believable as somewhere that people actually live. if that's what you meant then we agree -- but you said that a focus on guilt and suffering are 'fringe' elements of Catholicism, which is certainly not the case. case in point: i know the English language mass was reformed a few years ago to re-emphasize the mea culpa at the start of the mass, so now every english-speaking Catholic every week in public gathering is supposed to strike their breast while saying that they have sinned "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault." there's a reason there are so many jokes about Catholic guilt.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 17:39
|
|
|
Bonaventure posted:if that's what you meant then we agree -- but you said that a focus on guilt and suffering are 'fringe' elements of Catholicism, which is certainly not the case. case in point: i know the English language mass was reformed a few years ago to re-emphasize the mea culpa at the start of the mass, so now every english-speaking Catholic every week in public gathering is supposed to strike their breast while saying that they have sinned "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault." There's "putting emphasis on the importance of guilt and personal redemption" part of your religion and then there is "habitually wishing people a sorrowful heart and spending all day kissing open, infected wounds as a lifestyle choice" part of your religion.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 18:20
|
|
|
I think the introduction of the game could have used more of a direct portrayal of, or at least a formal reference to, the major events described in the bonus comic and in the relevant Kickstarter updates posted above. You can still eventually get some of these details from the rest of the lore, sure, but I agree that it does create a risk of confusion and ambiguity around the setup and why the Penitent One wants to take action. As for the influence of historical Catholicism, I'd point out that various real life communities hold similar beliefs taken from local folklore and even apocryphal sources. It might not always be strictly canon, but you can still find real depictions and traditions that place an emphasis on pain, suffering and so on. wielder fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Sep 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 18:24
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:All I can say is that none of the Catholics I meet on a daily basis treat rope bondage as acceptable street clothes or casual self-mutilation as a completely normal daily expression of their faith. Of course it is not daily. That's reserved for holy week.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 18:41
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:All I can say is that none of the Catholics I meet on a daily basis treat rope bondage as acceptable street clothes or casual self-mutilation as a completely normal daily expression of their faith. Just because you don’t meet Catholics literally flagellating themselves on the street doesn’t mean the suffering aspect isn’t a huge part of it? One of the most popular mainstream movies about Catholicism in recent memory was about the The Passion and you had people seeing it multiple times cus they couldn’t get enough of Jesus being brutally executed for 2 hours.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 19:50
|
|
|
A lot of the stuff that isn't directly a reference to some real-life thing, usually from Holy Week in Seville, is actually symbolic in a sort of Hieronymus Bosch way. Those bastards who throw boomerang-like projectiles and seem to be cut in half are victims of the saw, while the guys with the bull heads who throw javelins are based both on the brazen bull and spanish bullfights. Not bullfighters, the bulls themselves: they pull the lances out of their own bodies to throw them. Both the saw and the bull were methods of torture and execution ascribed to the Spanish Inquisition. Like the works of Bosch, if you don't know the reasoning behind it a lot of the stuff in game really does come off as exaggeratedly morbid, but the artbook does a good job of showing how pretty much everything is either a literal or symbolic allusion to Spanish culture.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 20:24
|
|
|
NewMars posted:A lot of the stuff that isn't directly a reference to some real-life thing, usually from Holy Week in Seville, is actually symbolic in a sort of Hieronymus Bosch way. Those bastards who throw boomerang-like projectiles and seem to be cut in half are victims of the saw, while the guys with the bull heads who throw javelins are based both on the brazen bull and spanish bullfights. Not bullfighters, the bulls themselves: they pull the lances out of their own bodies to throw them. Both the saw and the bull were methods of torture and execution ascribed to the Spanish Inquisition. Like the works of Bosch, if you don't know the reasoning behind it a lot of the stuff in game really does come off as exaggeratedly morbid, but the artbook does a good job of showing how pretty much everything is either a literal or symbolic allusion to Spanish culture. I have the artbook and have contemplated sharing it, but don't know if that would be cool to do so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 20:42
|
|
|
You can purchase the artbook on Steam for cheap. It's worth buying if you have any interest in the visuals and like reading bits of developer commentary.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 21:06
|
|
|
Unfortunately, my opinions has done a bit of a 180 on the game. I still love the aesthetic and the imagery. The lore stuff is really cool and I like that you get more than dark souls and its easier to build up elements of the story in your head. The game play is a little clunky but its simple in a way that scratches a retro itch and exploring is sort of fun. What isn't fun is hunting down an item with an elaborate name, working out what you're supposed to do with it (mostly by running long distances, dying to the same spike pits etc.) to try one of several vaguely mysterious 'this unlocks stuff' bits. I've just got the tongues that grow vines. Cool, now I can run around the whole map AGAIN looking for a part where the vines growing will open up something. Can't wait until I get the item that lets me jump out of the water and I can run around the whole map again to find a place where the water is a problem. When the game is fluid and fun its great and has the best metroidvania feel. When it doesn't, its repetitive and clunky and boring.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 21:16
|
|
|
it's made me appreciate why every other game in the genre has generally minimal punishment for missing a platform jump -- in a linear arcade-style platformer it's fine to punish the player severely for missing jumps, because generally speaking they'll only have to get through any given platforming section once per playthrough. But in a non-linear game, if you're lost and exploring and have to traverse the same tricky instant death pits and platforming obstacles an indefinite amount of times, having such a severe punishment as sending you back to the respawn point every single time you go through the area is downright moronic.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 21:24
|
|
|
Game doesn't seem super punishing to me. Whenever you enter a new area, there's almost always bonfire close by, and most areas seem to have a generous amount of shortcuts as well. Only really had an issue in the snowy mountain area, but I also kinda stumbled upon that first.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 21:34
|
|
|
I mean it's just a basic Gnostic setting. The High Will and beyond the dream is heaven/the higher realm/the truth, and isn't really the direct instigator of the horror of the Miracle. That comes from Escribar, praying for guilt and punishment and speaking the three words. The three words that define the world now, "My great guilt". Or if you want to Latin it up like a good Catholic should? Mea maxima culpa. He's made his own guilt and desire for punishment the rule of the world, literally, and that's pretty scary in a world where the spiritual component of things is made manifest. And this can have some negative sides, what with all the monsters and the horrific suffering, but it can have some positives too, like the Kissers being able to actually heal folks. By and large it's a poo poo proposition, and so your charge: To take your sword, the Mea Culpa, and to absorb the guilt of the world. It's all fairly straight forward for what you'd expect if you smacked High Catholicism and High Fantasy together. e: I mean in the end You become a tree that is the source of all good and evil, until you are disturbed by a woman and it is potentially released back into the world. It's not exactly treading new ground. Mulva fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Sep 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2019 23:41
|
|
|
watching this ranking of the difficulty of the bosses and the guy actually pronounces it "pie dad". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd72spdFJ8A
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2019 21:20
|
|
|
I wish my dad had ten pies
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2019 21:31
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:watching this ranking of the difficulty of the bosses and the guy actually pronounces it "pie dad". Not really agreeing with the ranking. I found the hands boss among the easiest and I wouldn’t rank the end boss as the hardest either. Fire guy along with the face boss were my most frustrating fights.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2019 22:06
|
|
|
agreed i'm surprised he took so many tries on the final boss - your two are the two i had the most deaths on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2019 22:08
|
|
|
welp
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2019 22:16
|
|
|
Mr Hands is really easy to freak out on. If you’re constantly running around trying to avoid poo poo/chase after the boss while he scoots around you will have a terrible time. If you wait for him to come to you and focus on dodging/parrying it works much better.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2019 22:16
|
|
|
"Realm of the Fire Nuns" sounds like a bad b-movie subtitle. I can't get that goofy name someone had for the place out of my head. The Penitent One faces the peril of: The Realm of the Fire Nuns!!! And then the MST3K crew starts commentating.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2019 22:21
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX6imKsicpo
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2019 22:50
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:watching this ranking of the difficulty of the bosses and the guy actually pronounces it "pie dad". I'm Spanish and it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize why people were calling him that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2019 00:04
|
|
|
Elman posted:I'm Spanish and it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize why people were calling him that. i'm an english speaker who hasn't spoken spanish since high school and i was confused since i can still half read spanish so my brain reads it properly. that dude also drops the S at the end of words like it's french.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2019 00:47
|
|
|
The room in Grievance Ascends where you fight several waves of lovely ghosts on top of crumbling platforms can eat every inch of my fat rear end.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2019 04:51
|
|
|
dis astranagant posted:The room in Grievance Ascends where you fight several waves of lovely ghosts on top of crumbling platforms can eat every inch of my fat rear end. I hate the annoying glitch that gives the bell lepers invincibility when they spawn. Makes dealing with them pure loving rear end.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2019 05:10
|
|
|
Just finished the game with the true ending. Enjoyed it a lot! Got 95%. I think the most difficult bosses for me were the face lady, mostly because I fought her first. That lightning Paladin dude took a while for me to understand how to dodge his poo poo. And the final boss, because I had to be a little more patient during the first phase. I actually one shotted the dude with all the hands. I also really liked being torn apart by a giant loving baby!
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2019 05:14
|
|
|
Draxamus posted:Just finished the game with the true ending. Enjoyed it a lot! Got 95%. I think the most difficult bosses for me were the face lady, mostly because I fought her first. That lightning Paladin dude took a while for me to understand how to dodge his poo poo. And the final boss, because I had to be a little more patient during the first phase. My hardest ones were Esdras, Crisanta, and the Lady of the Charred Visage. Quince was also pretty drat hard as well actually. Exposito and Melquiades were also fun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2019 05:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:39 |
|
|
imagine how top-heavy you'd be with that hat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2019 05:23
|
|
