Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«19 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Croatoan
Jun 24, 2005

I am inevitable.
ROBBLE GROBBLE


Hello and welcome to the fringe science and cryptid thread! This is an offshoot to get back to the root of the PYF unnerving article or story thread. That thread is still cool and good but mostly focuses on creepy and weird deaths now with a heavy bent for cults and pedos. That's not what we're looking for here. Here, we'll discuss cool and creepy FRINGE stuff.

- Don't just post a link - tell us a short synopsis, or quote the article itself in your post! It prevents derails from people asking for more information, and is a courtesy to other goons who might find the subject too spooky.
- It's cool to post pics and or video too! It makes your post more interesting and engaging when you're posting a new subject. Basically don't shitpost when bringing a new one up.

Here, I'll start with Lost Cosmonauts!

Lost Cosmonauts, or Phantom Cosmonauts, is a conspiracy theory alleging that Soviet cosmonauts entered outer space, but without their existence having been acknowledged by either the Soviet or Russian space authorities.

Proponents of the Lost Cosmonauts theory concede that Yuri Gagarin was the first man to survive human spaceflight, but claim that the Soviet Union attempted to launch two or more manned space flights prior to Gagarin's, and that at least two cosmonauts died in the attempts. Another cosmonaut, Vladimir Ilyushin, is believed to have landed off-course and been held by the Chinese government. The Government of the Soviet Union supposedly suppressed this information, to prevent bad publicity during the height of the Cold War.




Sleep paralysis and shadow people discussions are banned. Sure they're creepy and weird we don't care.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

LostCosmonaut
Feb 15, 2014



I'm personally very doubtful that Lost Cosmonauts exist. If they had the US would have made a massive propaganda victory out of it (basically, my reasoning is a lesser variant of how the Soviets would have know the US faked a moon landing.)

One 'fun' bit of weird conspiracy stuff is Operation High Jump, an American expedition to the Antarctic in 1946; https://www.airspacemag.com/history...hjump-18223476/

Because the expedition involved a whole bunch of military equipment (including an aircraft carrier), conspiracy theorists claim that the real purpose was to take out a Nazi remnant in Antarctica. Nazi Germany did claim some of Antarctica; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Swabia, but they never actually did anything with it.

Hackers film 1995
Nov 4, 2009

Hack the planet!


i have nothing new to add unfortunately, but one of my past favorites is the voynich manuscript. the voynich manuscript is a book dated to the 15th century that uses an unknown writing system. no one has really deciphered it, but even this year people have claimed they have.

from the wiki article:

In 2019, the journal Romance Studies published a paper by Gerard Cheshire titled "The Language and Writing System of MS408 (Voynich) Explained". Cheshire, a biology research assistant at the University of Bristol, claimed to have deciphered the manuscript in two weeks using a combination of "lateral thinking and ingenuity." He suggested that the manuscript is "a compendium of information on herbal remedies, therapeutic bathing and astrological readings”, with a focus on female physical and mental health, reproduction, and parenting; and that the manuscript is the only known text written in proto-Romance. He said: "The manuscript was compiled by Dominican nuns as a source of reference for Maria of Castile, Queen of Aragon." However, experts in medieval documents disputed this interpretation vigorously, with the executive editor of Medieval Academy of America Lisa Fagin Davis denouncing the paper as "just more aspirational, circular, self-fulfilling nonsense".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript

BetterToRuleInHell
Jul 2, 2007

Touch my mask top
Get the chop chop


LostCosmonaut posted:

I'm personally very doubtful that Lost Cosmonauts exist. If they had the US would have made a massive propaganda victory out of it (basically, my reasoning is a lesser variant of how the Soviets would have know the US faked a moon landing.)

One 'fun' bit of weird conspiracy stuff is Operation High Jump, an American expedition to the Antarctic in 1946; https://www.airspacemag.com/history...hjump-18223476/

Because the expedition involved a whole bunch of military equipment (including an aircraft carrier), conspiracy theorists claim that the real purpose was to take out a Nazi remnant in Antarctica. Nazi Germany did claim some of Antarctica; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Swabia, but they never actually did anything with it.

Isn't Operation High Jump the origin of the story of a US pilot who claimed to discover a massive hole that ships flew out of? This tied into the other conspiracy that the Nazis also set out there because they were looking for something similar because they believed they would find the undercity orgin of the great Aryan race.

I hope this fits, it's something has has genuinely fascinated me ever since I saw it on Ancient Aliens (I know, I know): Gobekli Tepe.



Originally dismissed as a ancient cemetery in Turkey, it has now been discovered as a temple of sorts, dubbed the first temple ever created by man, but even as only 5% of it has been calculated as being unearthed, it is already causing controversy in the archaeological community as the structures/carvings/construction are dated around 6,000 years before conventional wisdom says civilization developed the sophistication to develop such a place.





I would love to see what else they unearth, especially since they have seemingly only scratched the surface of this site (evidence suggests that this site has been built over multiple times, meaning even more, older evidence lies beneath the surface.

If you want to learn more, try the link above, or give the Astonishing Legends podcast about it a listen. It's a three-part series, and really goes into depth about the significance of the discovery.

Kanine
Aug 5, 2014


gobleki tepe is one of those things that make me imagine an alternate universe where civilization still developed but in a completely different way based on nomadic hunter-gatherers rather than sedentary farmers. and that makes me wonder how alien cultures could evolve in ways we can't conceive of

Grand Gigas
Jul 2, 2006

True heroes always show up late.


Gobleki Tepe is one of those things I just think about and get misty eyed. There’s something about it.

Scathach
Apr 4, 2011

You know that thing where you sleep on your arm funny and when you wake up it's all numb? Yeah that's my whole world right now.




I'm pretty sure our ideas of how advanced ancient humans were are still based on ridiculous Victorian ideas-- kinda like the notion that dinosaurs were slow and stupid. Early humans were probably way more advanced than we believe because we're still plagued by "hurp durp we're super smart so they couldn't have done advanced stuff without us."

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 11, 2012

This particularly rapid unintelligible patter isn't generally heard, and if it is, it doesn't matter.





Scathach posted:

I'm pretty sure our ideas of how advanced ancient humans were are still based on ridiculous Victorian ideas-- kinda like the notion that dinosaurs were slow and stupid. Early humans were probably way more advanced than we believe because we're still plagued by "hurp durp we're super smart so they couldn't have done advanced stuff without us."

One of the good points that Stephen Pinker (ugh) makes is that surviving as a hunter-gatherer in New Guinea or Australia (for just two) requires an enormous body of knowledge that you're constantly updating. "Froo looks like it will be ripe in another day, so come back then, but it's almost the time for froz". That isn't visible to archaeologists, only to sociologists who are paying attention Hunter-gatherer sounds like okay, kill an okapi one day, eat the berries on this bush another day, build some huts, wear some pelts, you're good. It's much much more complex than that.

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007


Yeah,ancient people were smart and creative as gently caress, because that’s what humans are. Ancient man was doing math in his head and tracking the exact movements of celestial bodies and performing science well before the written word. If your chores and done for the day and everything is ok, you’ve got nothing but time to think about and discuss poo poo, even if you’re a nomadic hunter-gatherer. “Ignorant man,” somehow figured out how to tame animals, grow crops, make booze, play music and perform complex dances, make medicine and care for the injured and represent speech as symbols, among thousands of other amazing achievements. People in the “before time,” lacked consistent knowledge sharing and hypothesis testing between large groups, ie accumulated knowledge on a mass scale as we can enjoy today. Even then, they did pretty loving well for themselves.

I mean if Greeks could make steam engines and robotic puppet shows, Romans and Chinese could make mechanical computers and automated factories, etc, I think it’s silly to assume some group of people in pre-history couldn’t have figured out a little carving and architecture and myth making “ahead of time.” Even ancient writers wrote accounts of ancient ruins of unknown origin. gently caress, Koko the gorilla knew the implications of mortality and had an idea of what awaits after death. I think Joe Caveman could figure out how stones work.

*the Koko is a lie

Pvt.Scott has a new favorite as of 19:56 on Sep 16, 2019

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





Koko was a loving scam, and thus perfect for the thread. The lead researcher was the only person who could 'interpret' Koko, and used that position to sexually harass the women he worked with. "No, you see, the gorilla is signing 'nipple', so you'd better show the gorilla your nipples, it's not my idea"

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

Tunicate posted:

Koko was a loving scam, and thus perfect for the thread. The lead researcher was the only person who could 'interpret' Koko, and used that position to sexually harass the women he worked with. "No, you see, the gorilla is signing 'nipple', so you'd better show the gorilla your nipples, it's not my idea"


I don't think I heard that second part before, just the huge questions about assessing nonhuman intelligence largely via trainers/interpreters.

Wasabi the J
Jan 23, 2008


Here's a bit more on the subject of Koko

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

article posted:

arrogant, hyperskeptical, human-biased speciesist, contemptuous of ape abilities

Requesting exception to username character limit

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/feb/21/2

The nipple lawsuit was in 2005

Ralph Crammed In
May 11, 2007
Let's get clean and smart

I've always been partial to good old fashioned American one-off mystery creatures



Oh black and white Flatwoods Monster, you're not just an owl, you're more than that to me.



You're too cute to be a demon, Dover Demon!



Hopkinsville Goblins, however, is a spot on name.



You'll love our frogmen here in Loveland.

I don't have Mothman on this list cause I don't really consider him a one-off. There's a lot of lore around him and he's been sighted in Chicago recently. But the above are just big question marks.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Cats have a lot of nipples

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

Ralph Crammed In posted:

I've always been partial to good old fashioned American one-off mystery creatures

Along those lines, one that's relatively new to me is the fearsome SLIDE-ROCK BOLTER


Who wouldn't love a giant mountain eel/whale that slides down steep mountainsides to swallow up unsuspecting tourists, whose only visible trace is slopes full of downed trees that definitely couldn't have been caused by any other mechanism? (answer: the forest ranger who blew one up in a Jaws-esque victory moment )

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Next time I'm flush I'm seriously considering getting a sub to fortean times

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007



Oh, cool. Koko was a case of one of those people who types responses to a family’s question with the finger of their beloved vegetable? I suppose an educated horse doing math with hoof stomps might be a closer fit? Ouija by way of gorilla is at least a novel take. RIP one more half-remembered myth from my youth.



E: whatever you think you saw, it’s always an owl

Pvt.Scott has a new favorite as of 20:03 on Sep 16, 2019

Randaconda
Jul 3, 2014

The preceding post has been paid for by the new World order.



I used to love listening to Coast to Coast AM for the insane callers and guests.

Wasabi the J
Jan 23, 2008


Pvt.Scott posted:

Oh, cool. Koko was a case of one of those people who types responses to a family’s question with the finger of their beloved vegetable? I suppose an educated horse doing math with hoof stomps might be a closer fit? Ouija by way of gorilla is at least a novel take. RIP one more half-remembered myth from my youth.


E: whatever you think you saw, it’s always an owl

Yeah Koko is a better case study on a lot of biases in human reasoning, more than a demonstration of cross-species communication.

Koko did nothing wrong. She's a gorilla -- her handlers were charlatans though and somehow convinced A LOT of academics somehow ignore the glaringly obvious bullshit tactics used.

I mean I was a kid, I was convinced it was real science. Looking back through even a brief history would reveal all the cracks, like the fact that NO ONE COULD UNDERSTAND KOKO BUT HER HANDLERS.

Wasabi the J has a new favorite as of 20:15 on Sep 16, 2019

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

Randaconda posted:

I used to love listening to Coast to Coast AM for the insane callers and guests.

My grandparents randomly decided to listen to some station that rebroadcast that for a year or two, including one summer when I was out for a long visit. I was young enough to think that it wouldn't be on the radio if it weren't true, so I spent the summer secretly spooked at alien coverups/chupacabras/etc

Madkal
Feb 11, 2008

It was all going well, and then the parademons showed up


Fallen Rib

I feel that this is a question that would be asked sooner or later so I will ask it now. As someone who loves unsolved mysteries, cryptids, and weird stuff what are some good podcasts to listen to? I already listened to all the Thinking Sideways episodes, and just recently got into Astonishing Legends. I guess there is also Our Fake History as well. Any other recommendations?

Randaconda
Jul 3, 2014

The preceding post has been paid for by the new World order.



Captain Hygiene posted:

My grandparents randomly decided to listen to some station that rebroadcast that for a year or two, including one summer when I was out for a long visit. I was young enough to think that it wouldn't be on the radio if it weren't true, so I spent the summer secretly spooked at alien coverups/chupacabras/etc

It's too bad it's just terrible with George Noory

luxury handset
Jan 24, 2018

THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON


Captain Hygiene posted:

My grandparents randomly decided to listen to some station that rebroadcast that for a year or two, including one summer when I was out for a long visit. I was young enough to think that it wouldn't be on the radio if it weren't true, so I spent the summer secretly spooked at alien coverups/chupacabras/etc

yeah i was a young child during the alien/cryptid zeitgeist of the late 80's and early 90's and the thing that terrified me more than anything else was being abducted by aliens

i used to get cold shiver scared whenever the spooky green alien face popped up for the intro to the show sightings. still watched it though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79HmgT9pbvI

Randaconda
Jul 3, 2014

The preceding post has been paid for by the new World order.



luxury handset posted:

yeah i was a young child during the alien/cryptid zeitgeist of the late 80's and early 90's and the thing that terrified me more than anything else was being abducted by aliens

i used to get cold shiver scared whenever the spooky green alien face popped up for the intro to the show sightings. still watched it though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79HmgT9pbvI

lol
look into the face of true terror

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7veciQZgYo

OutOfPrint
Apr 9, 2009



Fun Shoe

luxury handset posted:

yeah i was a young child during the alien/cryptid zeitgeist of the late 80's and early 90's and the thing that terrified me more than anything else was being abducted by aliens

i used to get cold shiver scared whenever the spooky green alien face popped up for the intro to the show sightings. still watched it though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79HmgT9pbvI

Same, but for me, it was that one Albert Einstein looking psychic they had on occasionally. His stories were the scariest poo poo when I was 7.

luxury handset
Jan 24, 2018

THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON



oh yeah i had these books. the exact sequence from 2:23 on was something that went straight from my daytime tv watching eyes directly to my sleeping nightmares. there was nothing in the world scarier to me than aliens just showing up around my childhood bed and flying off with me

Brute Hole Force
Dec 25, 2005

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


Pvt.Scott posted:

Yeah,ancient people were smart and creative as gently caress, because that’s what humans are. Ancient man was doing math in his head and tracking the exact movements of celestial bodies and performing science well before the written word. If your chores and done for the day and everything is ok, you’ve got nothing but time to think about and discuss poo poo, even if you’re a nomadic hunter-gatherer. “Ignorant man,” somehow figured out how to tame animals, grow crops, make booze, play music and perform complex dances, make medicine and care for the injured and represent speech as symbols, among thousands of other amazing achievements. People in the “before time,” lacked consistent knowledge sharing and hypothesis testing between large groups, ie accumulated knowledge on a mass scale as we can enjoy today. Even then, they did pretty loving well for themselves.

I mean if Greeks could make steam engines and robotic puppet shows, Romans and Chinese could make mechanical computers and automated factories, etc, I think it’s silly to assume some group of people in pre-history couldn’t have figured out a little carving and architecture and myth making “ahead of time.” Even ancient writers wrote accounts of ancient ruins of unknown origin. gently caress, Koko the gorilla knew the implications of mortality and had an idea of what awaits after death. I think Joe Caveman could figure out how stones work.

*the Koko is a lie

Even though I'm a firm believer that most humans then and now are largely stupid and lazy as hell, it's still a pretty no poo poo assumption to make that ancient people achieved everything they did simply by not having anything else to do. Eventually laughing at the goats loving is going to get old and moving some big rear end rocks and precisely fitting them together starts to sound like a good time.

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Blind.
Idiot.
God.



Madkal posted:

I feel that this is a question that would be asked sooner or later so I will ask it now. As someone who loves unsolved mysteries, cryptids, and weird stuff what are some good podcasts to listen to? I already listened to all the Thinking Sideways episodes, and just recently got into Astonishing Legends. I guess there is also Our Fake History as well. Any other recommendations?

Blurry Photos
Cryptonaut Podcast
Euphomet
Into The Portal
Last Podcast on the Left
Lore
Nighttime Podcast
Not Alone
Our Strange Skies (listen to the recent ones first)
Pleasing Terrors
Somewhere in the Skies
The Strange and Unusual Podcast
Strange Animals Podcast (only occasionally cryptids, but the ones about real weird animals are great too)
Unexplained
Unfathomable
The What If? Podcast

Raptor1033
Dec 17, 2010

That ain't a noodle, chirpy!


Tony Snark posted:

Even though I'm a firm believer that most humans then and now are largely stupid and lazy as hell, it's still a pretty no poo poo assumption to make that ancient people achieved everything they did simply by not having anything else to do. Eventually laughing at the goats loving is going to get old and moving some big rear end rocks and precisely fitting them together starts to sound like a good time.

aw poo poo, Doobie's got that wild look in his eye.
"Gonna get some big rear end rocks, stack em REAL high!"

For fringe science, Goop is expanding into men's health! I'm excited to see what toxic object ol' Gwynny suggests I shove up my rear end for spiritual health.

Raptor1033 has a new favorite as of 01:04 on Sep 17, 2019

FFT
Dec 28, 2005

Keyboard Cowboy



Pvt.Scott posted:

Oh, cool. Koko was a case of one of those people who types responses to a family’s question with the finger of their beloved vegetable? I suppose an educated horse doing math with hoof stomps might be a closer fit? Ouija by way of gorilla is at least a novel take. RIP one more half-remembered myth from my youth.

Clever Hans I get, but I'm not familiar with the other.

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Blind.
Idiot.
God.



Ralph Crammed In posted:




Hopkinsville Goblins, however, is a spot on name.

Your entire list is great, but I've always had a soft spot for the Hopkinsville Goblins. It's one of those weird cases where, regardless of whether one thinks anything weird actually happened, the folks involved believed they did.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011




Another lovely tidbit on the pile of fuckery that was Koko, Francine Patterson pretty much stole her from the San Francisco Zoo. She was originally on loan for only four years, but Patterson used a load of PR spin to keep her indefinitely.

She most likely would have had a far better, healthier life if she'd been returned to the care of the zoo. Patterson had her fed a diet entirely inappropriate for a gorilla, and had some quack holistic "doctor" provide health care.

Animal language is an interesting topic to look into, just for the drama behind the scenes. Herbert S. Terrace went into it believing, with Nim Chimpsky, but ended up completely on the opposite side and called out Patterson and the Koko studies. John C. Lilly flooded a house and had Margaret Lovatt live in there with Peter the bottlenose dolphin. She got up to sexual shenanigans with Peter like that was totally normal. Lilly was also dosing dolphins with LSD. There's all sorts of debate about Alex, the grey parrot.

The field has died back from it's glory period, but there was, and is, a lot of drama in it.

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007


FFT posted:

Clever Hans I get, but I'm not familiar with the other.

If clever Hans is a horse (making the assumption here) then the other thing I mentioned was facilitated communication.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fac...d_communication

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011




Facilitated communication has infested parts of the autism communities. Like, I get it. Severe autism is a bitch, and it seems like the magic method to achieve communication with their kids. But it's pretty much proven bullshit, and relies on believing autism is solely a motor control and emotional disorder, when it's widely accepted as a neurological condition often comorbid with intellectual disabilities.

M_Sinistrari
Sep 5, 2008

Do you like scary movies?





Wasabi the J posted:

Yeah Koko is a better case study on a lot of biases in human reasoning, more than a demonstration of cross-species communication.

Koko did nothing wrong. She's a gorilla -- her handlers were charlatans though and somehow convinced A LOT of academics somehow ignore the glaringly obvious bullshit tactics used.

I mean I was a kid, I was convinced it was real science. Looking back through even a brief history would reveal all the cracks, like the fact that NO ONE COULD UNDERSTAND KOKO BUT HER HANDLERS.

Same situation with Washoe the chimp's learning sign language. There's definitely some weirdness with the academics into this line of study. I think it was on the application for either a dolphin or chimpanzee language study where applicants were asked about their sexual attitudes and being nude at work.

AngryRobotsInc posted:

Facilitated communication has infested parts of the autism communities. Like, I get it. Severe autism is a bitch, and it seems like the magic method to achieve communication with their kids. But it's pretty much proven bullshit, and relies on believing autism is solely a motor control and emotional disorder, when it's widely accepted as a neurological condition often comorbid with intellectual disabilities.

I was about to post about this. It's purely preying on the desperation of families when they have a loved one incapable of communication. Frontline did an episode about it which completely debunked it but there's still true believers who cling to it. The big case was this one: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/...ubblefield.html.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004

.




Every year for my birthday I look up the complete set of these on Ebay and debate buying them. I finally own my own place, so I think this may be the year I actually pull the trigger.

I'm gonna be tearing it up this year for 9 year old Solice. I'm going to Medieval Times Dinner and Tournament and buying the spooky books about ghosts I never got to read!

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012


Madkal posted:

I feel that this is a question that would be asked sooner or later so I will ask it now. As someone who loves unsolved mysteries, cryptids, and weird stuff what are some good podcasts to listen to? I already listened to all the Thinking Sideways episodes, and just recently got into Astonishing Legends. I guess there is also Our Fake History as well. Any other recommendations?

I'll add futility closet to the recs. Not so much unsolved mysteries. But a ton of lesser known oddities throughout history. Secret Presidential surgery's, mislocated animals, obscure expeditions, and other strange goings. It took me a minute to get into, but the hosts clearly take the research seriously and manage to find some incredibly obscure tales to tell.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011




Fringe science "therapies" for autism are an area of study that I love to call out. I understand the drive behind parents going for them, as my son is autistic, and was close to non-verbal until he was about six years old. He could speak, but it was entirely echolalia. The people pushing them, though, are either as deluded as the parents, or vile villains preying on the desperation of those caring for special needs children.

Some of them are just quackery like facilitated communication, but some have left children maimed or dead.

Chelation

More on Chelation

More cases of Facilitated Communication

Applied kinesiology

Detoxification

I've seen these and more trumpeted as "The one trick Big Pharma hates!" And the community is still ate up by anti-vaxxers, as well.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«19 »