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Seksiness
Aug 24, 2006
I screwed your grandma and all I got was this lousy custom title... and herpes

drunk leprechaun posted:

Actual scientists say...

World Rugby aren't ignoring this, they are saying it has been superseded by further research into the effects on the body of reducing testosterone levels that show that the inherent biological advantage isn't reduced as much as originally thought. Especially in the areas of muscle mass and strength.

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202005.0226/v1

Taking emotion out of it, it isn't bigotry to change policy to reflect the information you have with regards to safety and if the information changes I would expect WR to change policy to reflect. But yes, it feels a bit lovely especially because Rugby has always prided itself on being a game for everyone of all shapes and sizes.

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hooman
Oct 11, 2007

This guy seems legit.


Fun Shoe

turntabler posted:

Wallabies are gonna beat the all blacks at Eden Park this weekend.

What actually happened to NZ in the last game? I watched quite a bit of super rugby aotearoa and most of those teams looked like they could have beaten the NZ that ran on to the pitch against the wallabies.

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.


Seksiness posted:

World Rugby aren't ignoring this, they are saying it has been superseded by further research into the effects on the body of reducing testosterone levels that show that the inherent biological advantage isn't reduced as much as originally thought. Especially in the areas of muscle mass and strength.

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202005.0226/v1

Taking emotion out of it, it isn't bigotry to change policy to reflect the information you have with regards to safety and if the information changes I would expect WR to change policy to reflect. But yes, it feels a bit lovely especially because Rugby has always prided itself on being a game for everyone of all shapes and sizes.

The problem with the research is that it is entirely hypothetical, there is almost no practical, in the field analysis on the issue in rugby. As for taking emotion out of the equation, WR also included an openly transphobic pressure group, run by someone that thinks trans girls in the Girl Guides is a danger to women, on the panel to decide if trans people could be allowed to compete. It was barely a level playing field from the start.

Every single thermonuclear hot take on this issue seems to think that any trans player would be some sort of 6'6" 20st man who just decided to call themselves a woman when there are no instances of this happening at any level in rugby. The entire thing seems to be predicated either on trans panic in sports or for WR to insure themselves against a future lawsuit if someone was injured playing in a game against a trans player and decided to sue.

Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012




Smorgasbord posted:

I absolutely did not make any such point, gently caress off with this bullshit.

Not engaging with my point at all there? I think it's easy for me to be confused when you say poo poo like

quote:

There isn't even a transition there she is a biological male in a sports bra clowning on biological girls

Maybe that explains why people think you're a loving moron?

But still to engage more, you think its safe for women to play against women literally twice their size but wildly dangerous for them to compete against transwomen?

drunk leprechaun
May 7, 2007
sobriety is for the weak and the stupid

Vaders Jester posted:

The problem with the research is that it is entirely hypothetical, there is almost no practical, in the field analysis on the issue in rugby. As for taking emotion out of the equation, WR also included an openly transphobic pressure group, run by someone that thinks trans girls in the Girl Guides is a danger to women, on the panel to decide if trans people could be allowed to compete. It was barely a level playing field from the start.

Every single thermonuclear hot take on this issue seems to think that any trans player would be some sort of 6'6" 20st man who just decided to call themselves a woman when there are no instances of this happening at any level in rugby. The entire thing seems to be predicated either on trans panic in sports or for WR to insure themselves against a future lawsuit if someone was injured playing in a game against a trans player and decided to sue.

Yes exactly. Based on who they included it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they used some science for window dressing.

Also they don't account for how often these potential interactions even happen. What is the participation rate for trans women at any level of rugby, let along the highest level? Trans individuals represent 0.6% of the population, and given how aggressively they are marginalized by society I bet the participation rates for sports to be a lot lower. But even if we double to 1.2% participation this is one trans woman for every 6-7 starting XV. So in the women Six Nations that is one person. One. So the "20-30% injury chance increase" is actually far far lower.

Let's say that we take that same study and apply it across racial groups. Maybe we find that injuries are 20-30% higher when playing polynesian teams. Should they be banned? What about if the results say that black South Africans "increase the injury risk" of opponents? What if it's the English? Or the Welsh? I know in American sports that there are teams who it is known have a higher injury rate in their opponents than the average. Sometimes a lot higher. Should we ban those teams and deal with it that way?

Again this decision doesn't even weigh the "increased injury risk" against the damage done to trans women who just want to play rugby and find that community that we love to hold up. This decision strikes me as being similar to a lot of eugenics and scientific racism bullshit in the early 1900's. It's just that trans individuals are now the target. That's why I will continue to call this bigotry. Becasue that is plainly what it is.

drunk leprechaun fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 15, 2020

Mister Chief
Jun 6, 2011



I also agree the English should be banned.

Smorgasbord
Jun 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 26 hours!


drunk leprechaun posted:

Actually it is 100% your job to provide evidence to back up your claims. That's how discourse works.

Apparently telling you where to find it wasn't enough for you so just start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...eople_in_sports there are a ton of sources to get you started, they are summarised in the entry under the heading "Testosterone, athletic ability and injury risks" copied below.

Males at every percentile are stronger, taller, denser bones, greater lung capacity etc etc etc. Hormone treatment while gradually reducing some of that differential over time does not and cannot remove those across the board advantages that are the whole damned reason there are separate categories for men and women in sport. I don't think the fact that the recent increase in transgenderism hasn't had enough time to filter through to dominating olympic podiums yet is a reason not to take sensible actions to protect biological women's interests given the clear science on this.

This whole thing is ideology vs science.

Given the obvious (and backed by science) disparities across the board why shouldn't there be a third category for transwomen, or simply a biological women's category and an open-entry category?

quote:

There is ongoing debate over the impact of biological sex differences in humans on sports abilities. People who oppose transgender women competing in women's sports say that they are given an unfair advantage over cisgender women due to higher testosterone levels and different muscle and fat distribution. Testosterone regulates many different functions in the body, including the maintenance of bone and muscle mass.[22] It is also argued that athletes who transition to a woman after puberty will have a greater muscle-to-fat ratio compared to female athletes.[6] A September 2019 study from the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm found that a year of hormone therapy decreased muscle mass in transgender women only modestly.[23]

A 38-page draft document from World Rugby's transgender working group in 2020 acknowledged that female rugby players, when tackled by a player who has gone through male puberty, are at a significantly greater risk of injury. The document cites recent peer-reviewed or preprint[a][24] research showing that trans women, after taking medication to lower their testosterone, retain "significant" physical advantages over biological women "with only small reductions in strength and no loss in bone mass or muscle volume or size after testosterone suppression”. The working group calculated that increased injury risk for typical players with female characteristics when tackled by a typical player with male characteristics was between 20-30%, and potentially reaching "levels twice as large" in extreme cases where the players are unusually small and large, respectively. Consequently, the document proposes that in the absence of persuasive evidence to the contrary, International Olympic Committee guidelines regarding a minimum 12-month lowering of testosterone are "not fit for purpose" in the context of rugby.[25]

Joanna Harper is a competitive runner, scientist, transgender woman and medical physicist at the Providence Portland Medical Center who advised the International Olympic Committee (IOC).[26] She argues that the use of estrogen supplements and testosterone blockers (or physical castration via sex reassignment surgery) cause a decrease in muscle mass, and oxygen-carrying red blood cells and that this leads to a decrease in strength, speed, and endurance.[27] According to Harper, every athlete has advantages and disadvantages. The greater height that a transgender woman may have gained before transitioning may be an advantage on the basketball court but it is likely to be disadvantageous to a gymnast.[28] Eric Vilain, a professor of human genetics at UCLA and a consultant to the IOC medical commission, stated: "There is 10 to 12% difference between male and female athletic performance. We need to categorize with criteria that are relevant to performance. It is a very difficult situation with no easy solution."[29]

A 2017 systematic review of related literature reported that there is no direct or comprehensive evidence of transgender women having an athletic advantage over their cisgender counterparts at any stage of transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones or sex reassignment surgery) due to the lack of quantitative research on the subject making it "difficult to draw any definite conclusions".[30] One study measured the physical changes of transitioning. The main finding of the study found that "androgen deprivation in transgender female individuals increases the overlap in muscle mass with [cis] women but does not reverse it."[31] A 2018 extended essay analyzed the current IOC rule set in 2015 (testosterone below 10 nmol/L for transwomen) and found that "the advantage to transwomen afforded by the IOC guidelines is an intolerable unfairness", while they propose to abandon male/female categories in favor of a more nuanced division.[32] A 2019 study found that the one year lowering of testosterone as required by the IOC rules resulted in only "modest changes in [transgender women]". Where transgender women "generally maintained their strength levels" over the assessment period despite a 4-5% loss in muscle volume.[33]

Smorgasbord
Jun 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 26 hours!


Aramoro posted:

Not engaging with my point at all there? I think it's easy for me to be confused when you say poo poo like


Maybe that explains why people think you're a loving moron?

But still to engage more, you think its safe for women to play against women literally twice their size but wildly dangerous for them to compete against transwomen?

If you disagree with me then explain why, I'm not going to respond to insults or mischaracterisations.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

turntabler
Sep 10, 2011


hooman posted:

What actually happened to NZ in the last game? I watched quite a bit of super rugby aotearoa and most of those teams looked like they could have beaten the NZ that ran on to the pitch against the wallabies.

I am a pretty casual fan but I just read it as two teams in transition ran into each other, and the all blacks were overconfident in not expecting the wallabies to be as confident and (fairly) competent as they were.

slothrop
Dec 7, 2006

consider your chops: busted




Soiled Meat

Old mate is really arguing in circles here (or more likely, in bad faith)

Regarding Fairness

IF transwomen do have a physical advantage over ciswomen (and it appears there is no significant science to confirm or deny this) then I can see the issue being relevant in individual sports such as track and field or tennis. I don't see how this can be an issue on the rugby field? In a team sport, with 15 players a side, there are always going to be a number of players who are bigger than others. As other posters have alluded to, rugby's strength has been it's inclusiveness. I think this extends to having several specialised positions that allows for different body types to play and be competitve.

For what it's worth, I was chatting last night to my best mate, who is a urologist. He suggested that the reading he had done on the subject was that in the long term, transwomen posess no significant physical advantage over cis women.

Regarding Safety

I really think this is a red herring. If Ben Tamifuna can play on the same pitch as Cheslin Kolbe, there is NO reasonable argument for excluding transwomen. If you want to exclude transwomen on this basis you need to change all forms of rugby to weight grades.

Charles 2 of Spain
Nov 7, 2017



Yeah the safety thing in rugby is a garbage argument. It's extremely patronizing to ciswomen players to assume their fragile bodies are going to shatter as soon as they get tackled by a transwoman.

hooman
Oct 11, 2007

This guy seems legit.


Fun Shoe

turntabler posted:

I am a pretty casual fan but I just read it as two teams in transition ran into each other, and the all blacks were overconfident in not expecting the wallabies to be as confident and (fairly) competent as they were.

It was just odd, because the quality looked so much lower, maybe the Wallabies defence was much better than I gave it credit for which is why all the Australian's comp's attack looked like garbage.

Charles 2 of Spain posted:

Yeah the safety thing in rugby is a garbage argument. It's extremely patronizing to ciswomen players to assume their fragile bodies are going to shatter as soon as they get tackled by a transwoman.

When I was playing rugby I played a full contact scratch match against a womens team and it was totally fine. No different than playing a mens team that was on the slightly smaller side.

EDIT: To clarify the women's team at the club asked to play us because they really needed match practice.

Mister Chief
Jun 6, 2011



This same conversation happens every time to All Blacks do not dominate. If there is not a win this weekend then there is a convo worth having.

tarbrush
Feb 7, 2011

But Schefter said they Love Herbert?!


Wasps: Bristol placed on standby for Premiership final over coronavirus outbreak - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54574710

Lol

Looke
Aug 2, 2013



tarbrush posted:

Wasps: Bristol placed on standby for Premiership final over coronavirus outbreak - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54574710

Lol

HahHh

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004




tarbrush posted:

Wasps: Bristol placed on standby for Premiership final over coronavirus outbreak - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54574710

Lol

That would be amazing.

tarbrush
Feb 7, 2011

But Schefter said they Love Herbert?!


I'm hoping for hilarity and my own selfish reasons Bristol cone down with a case too and we get a random Exeter Bath replay

Looke
Aug 2, 2013



I’m feeling some silverware tonight

Looke
Aug 2, 2013



What a game, honestly as always Bristol came back in force in the second half. So proud of my club.

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.


Great match, that first try was a serious statement, good to see Pat Lam and Bristol to get rewarded for their hard work.

HappyCamperGL
May 18, 2014



looking forward to hoggy v russell.

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.


Iribaren is currently taking a poo poo with his clothes on.

HappyCamperGL
May 18, 2014



lol.

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.


Clownball activated

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.


What a pass

HappyCamperGL
May 18, 2014



johny gray has missed a tackle!

Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012




A really strong Scottish representation in this final.

MyChemicalImbalance
Sep 15, 2007

Keep on smilin'





Oh no thomas francis

sleep with the vicious
Apr 2, 2010


Thoughts from watching Exeter vs racing euro final:

I'm always shocked by the lack of professionalism of top level club rugby. How does Russell not take a drop goal down by 1 point dead in front of the posts with 6 minutes to go. They don't even think about it.

Nigel Owens having to argue with the tmo about the clock

Well done to the chiefs', that's quite the story going from championship to euro champions.

Looke
Aug 2, 2013



Vaders Jester posted:

Great match, that first try was a serious statement, good to see Pat Lam and Bristol to get rewarded for their hard work.

Pat Lam has done such great work with Bristol, we really owe him a lot.

The Rabbi T. White
Jul 17, 2008



Caleb Clarke absolutely killing it with that dump truck rear end.

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.




Scotland team to face Georgia on Friday night.

Tyma
Dec 22, 2004

Chwyldro Dawnsio Dawns


Are English-based players unavailable? Because there's a pretty glaring omission at #5.

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Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.


The Exeter players are in the Prem final so will be unavailable.

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