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VideoGames posted:I am wondering if they have never been in the good place, the medium place, the bad place, or even earth all this time. They have actually been in purgatory and absolutely everything they have been doing is actually working off their sins for either reincarnation or entry into the real good place. God I hope not. There's no need for one big further twist that'll change everything we've perceived about the show. What they've presented is already interesting enough on it's own, and adding that would just feel cheap really. They made a great twist in the finale of season one; that's enough on it's own.
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Sep 25, 2019 13:37
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No, the ending is pretty conclusive about it. Eleanor doesn't think there is any chance Michael is actually Vicki in a suit. That is a conclusion. No-one has to literally say "Yes, Michael is definitely Michael and not Vicki at all" for it to be conclusive, because that's be some pretty ham handed writing if they did.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:02
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Bored posted:So her true form could be what we see and the mustache and beard mentioned in East Asian mythology were just because humans are hella sexist and she knew she would have to waste time getting them to pay attention if they saw her as a female. I mean, that's kind of circular reasoning really. If female deities don't appear to people and make strong impressions, then no-one will change their mind on female deities (and women in general), so they'd have to disguise themselves to save time because no-one has forced ancient assholes to change their minds.
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Oct 20, 2019 21:34
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On the other hand, it's a bit sad that Bad Janet got 9 million wipes, and is smarter and more capable but not actually different in any meaningful way. I suppose it shows how valuable the experience socializing and thinking about things was for Good Janet, to say she could advance so far in a few hundred reboots compared to Bad Janet.
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Oct 22, 2019 17:12
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I wonder if Derek will try to flirt with Bad Janet.
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Oct 22, 2019 19:41
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I do think it'd be fun for Derek to get annoyed with and tired of Bad Janet, and for him to start Derek'ing her to relieve his frustration.
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Oct 22, 2019 20:40
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SardonicTyrant posted:Michael specifically mentions in the first episode that points are calculated based on how much good or bad you add to the universe. The problem is the world gets increasingly complicated so it's impossible for a person to truly know how much good or bad an action is. It's impossible to know when you don't have the rules or know the point system anyway, since all you're going off is your own perception of what's good or bad, along with how much value those have for either morality. There's nothing guaranteeing your evaluation of those agrees with the system.
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Oct 25, 2019 00:24
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ApplesandOranges posted:If Janet can blow up an entrance, a Bad Janet can probably rebuild it with little issue. It's possible a Janet would actually need to be in the relevant dimension to be able to reconstruct the entrance, and since the entrance is gone, she can no longer get there easily to do so.
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Oct 30, 2019 18:23
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There is, but she's not actually free to act at the moment and I assumed the point referred to a Bad Janet that's capable of doing so right now and which would quickly invalidate the act of destroying the entrance.
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Oct 30, 2019 19:40
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Michael absolutely had some effect on Bad Janet, and now the two most intelligent and capable Janets are going off-script. Which should be fun. The fact Michael freed her from imprisonment, rather than eternally punishing her seems to have shook her in a big way, going off her final reactions, and seeing what she does next is what I'm looking forward to most at the moment. The previously suggested twist that the 4 humans fail, but Team Cockroach wins anyway because of their effect on Bad Place denizens looks more and more plausible.
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Nov 3, 2019 16:56
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I disagree, specifically because the point as you said is that anyone can get better with the right education, support and incentives and the experiment is making it clear that they haven't provided those. Just because he didn't get better in the current circumstances does not mean he can't get better full stop. Brent seems like someone you'd have to make it clear he had made a mistake and that there was no pushing responsibility off on someone else etc. before he would have reason to improve. Which Team Cockroach have not done. We've already seen Chidi improve and get better, Simone was never particularly bad in the first place so far as we know and the other guy seems like he's actually improving under the current system thanks to Tahani; if someone is going to fail and make the flaws with their current setup explicit, then it's Brent.
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Nov 3, 2019 19:48
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blue squares posted:That's not fair. When I play Grand Theft Auto, the game tells me that those are real people with feelings, but I'm not being a bad person when I drive down a crowded sidewalk. She thought it was just a very realistic videogame And that's not reasonable; there's a huge leap in verisimilitude between a video game and the afterlife. Plenty of people feel bad for mistreating characters in videogames that are very distinct from reality, with controllers and a 2D presence on a separate screen and resist or regret treating them badly; Simone was treating people she had no proof were not real as disposable and ignorable. That she decided they were not real based on circumstance doesn't make it a good thing.
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Nov 6, 2019 15:12
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RBA Starblade posted:Hell most likely Only the best Bad Place for Brent though; one with immaculately manicured golf courses. That he can never play on. And perfect secretaries. That aren't his. The penis flatteners will be spotlessly clean though, and the butthole spiders will all wear monocles and have degrees from Harvard.
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Nov 11, 2019 18:34
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Straight White Shark posted:The Janet army revelation was extremely badass but... couldn't Bad Janet have just kept her mouth shut and completely stymied the judge? She only knows to go looking in other Janets' voids because Bad Janet spilled the beans. If Bad Janet had kept her mouth shut then the Judge would be kept clueless, but she also would have kept things rather static because the Judge would have stuck around to confound anything Team Cockroach did. It'd basically just keep things in eternal stasis, which is no good either.
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Nov 17, 2019 02:54
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Bobulus posted:I'm really curious how they're going to do the rest of the season. Let's say they figure out a new system next episode, and we'll even assume everything is resolved before the finale and it's just a 'where are they now' ending. That still leaves a lot of airtime! I would assume that the next episode will be Chidi coming up with some kind of new system, and that then there'll be a few episodes where they trial it because they still need to convince the beauracracy of heaven to adopt it even if they come up with a new method to deal with humans. The Judge is still a thing, and won't disappear just because Chidi imagines a new system after all. It seems likely the new system will require another trial run, where the 3 existing humans will be shown as being capable of greater improvement than they were under the old system and so adopting this new system is preferable to just wiping everything and starting over from scratch. I'd assume Brent will be the major winner of this new system, and need to undergo the most radical change to prove it's worth. Which should be fun. Seeing him actually develop in to a decent person after half a season of everyone hating on him for being such a dick will be quite cathartic. It would also go a long way to explain why they chose to include such an unrepentant douchebag for the first experiment; because they had to show that while he was capable of change the old system didn't engender it, so the new one is better because it does encourage it. I do wonder if they'll have a 4th member for that new trail though (presuming anything like it happens), since Chidi is the architect and it seems quite redundant to wipe his memories and have him go through it while the original team try to help him again. Maybe Sean or another demon will be the 4th "human" this time? Maybe that one demon they exploded could take his place? Maybe all of Team Cockroach will join the other 3 and there'll be 7 real humans, because they need to test the system on themselves (their old, pre-Good Place selves) to prove it's worth? tsob fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Nov 17, 2019 |
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Nov 17, 2019 13:58
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inklesspen posted:The concept of “points” is itself oppressive, though. Why are the Accountants qualified to judge the value of human existence, when it’s so obvious they don’t value human existence at all? They also don't understand it. They don't even really know much about it, because the Judge was surprised by some pretty basic stuff even though she apparently watches a lot of human TV. She may be an outlier for such extra-planar beings as well.
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Nov 18, 2019 18:25
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Michael is an honorary human now. There was a ceremony and everything.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:40
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bull3964 posted:It's not terribly unusual for network shows to go on hiatus between Thanksgiving and New Year's and it's kinda crazy that we have the same conversation every year. It's not really, for the simple reason that it's mostly a US thing to my knowledge and a lot of goons don't live in the US and so aren't used to it because their own national broadcasts don't do that.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:19
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bull3964 posted:Even still, we have the same goddamn exasperated "why is this show not on" for every single network show thread during this time period going back since this subforum was created and likely before that when it was just GBS. Even if you don't live in the US, you should know by now the same way most people on this forum from the US knows that the UK usually has Christmas day special episodes of shows. I think what you're failing to account for is that it's likely to be mostly different people each year, not the same group of people doing so every year.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:43
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pwn posted:Marbelize whichever Janet of whose Void she’s currently inside The Judge seems to be able to travel between dimensions freely, considering she could step to Earth and back at wish as well as in to any Janet's void, so there's no real reason to assume she would be trapped if the Janet was marbelized. Just because it takes a Janet out of commission, doesn't mean the Judge would be helpless.
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Nov 27, 2019 00:12
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Klungar posted:Yes, this was my thought as well. The kind of twist that you can do with only a few episodes left that doesn’t invalidate what came before and doesn’t require much follow up after. Similarly, could be the Michael test scenario plenty of people have discussed before. I hope neither of those are true, because while they don't require much further setup or payoff, they're also not particularly interesting twists. I'd even go so far as to say they're bad twists, and take away from a lot of what the show has done, rather than adding to it. Now the over-riding concern of the past season or more of "we need to reform heaven" shrinks to "we're just passing a morality test". Which is much smaller stakes. Interesting stakes on their own merit, but not when you swap one for the other without much in the way of setup. It seems like something that would be a twist just for the sake of having a twist. NowonSA posted:One way or another, despite all the good work they've done improving themselves and the afterlife system, they'll need to go through it to get in, and I fully expect that to be what the last few episodes are about, a fresh mindwipe and into the test they go. I'd get a kick out of seeing them pretty much coast through it and pass the test, and then for Michael to say something like "Yes, and it only took you 974 tries, that's the best anyone's done yet!" What would be the point of them going through it though? They already have gone through the system they're endorsing. That's kind of the point. They're designing a system that institutes the kind of setup they inadvertently went through and that improved them, with the hope doing so improves others based on a small sample set. Putting them through it can't improve them more than they are, because they basically already are their best selves according to the show. Chidi has gotten over his self-confidence issues and inability to choose, Eleanor has gotten over her selfishness and trashiness, Tahani has become more empathetic and willing to compromise and help others and Jason was always a perfect angel. What would putting them through it again achieve? Putting the group we already met for most of this season through it a few times to see if they keep improving would be a great idea, especially the rear end in a top hat rich white dude (John?); there's no point putting Team Cockroach through it though, because the entire show up to this point has already been them going through it and we already know the result. The Judge even endorsed the fact Eleanor has improved enough to be worthy of going to the Good Place more than a season ago. What more could putting her through the new system really improve her? tsob fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 12, 2020 |
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Jan 12, 2020 18:36
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Agronox posted:turns out the good place was the friends we made along the way I mean, it kind of is. The best thing that's ever happened to the protagonists is the friendship they developed, and it's been central to making their time in the afterlife actually a good experience despite the best attempts of demons to make it hell.
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Jan 13, 2020 05:34
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Are there any other type of philosophers that people keep referring specifically to moral one's Being the type people don't like? Do people like those other ones? Are there immoral philosophers?
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Jan 14, 2020 14:53
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Well he was facing a definite consequence with huge implications in both situations, and had already made a major decision in one of those instances and so had no further need to waver and could only look at what was coming. Existential dread (or existential courage I guess, in the case of when he agrees to blank his own memories) can galvanize you in ways you normally don't feel.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:34
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Former Human posted:I've never said this before but... wha? "Once on Earth, I didn't know the answer to something and had to ask Alexa. It felt...dirty." was a great line Janet joke too. That aside, I'm kind of surprised someone in the Jason, Chidi and Eleanor group didn't point out that just because they're in love now doesn't mean they have to be in love for eternity. That soulmates was just a concept Michael presented to torture them, and they don't actually have to be together forever; that if their feelings eventually change, they can deal with it move on if that times comes. I realize the show would probably want to go for a soulmates now and forever thing regardless, but you'd think someone would at least think about that possibility. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 13:17
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Regy Rusty posted:I don't think they're being tested, I think it's finally time to see what the actual good place is like and perhaps discover some inherent problems there to create conflict for the last 3 episodes. I don't think they're being tested, because what would testing prove? Especially to the audience, who already know the result because that's what the show has been doing for some time. Mokinokaro posted:I could fully see the Good Place being a huge disappointment in some way. It might come down to simply being a meaningless existence for Team Cockroach after everything they've done. I don't know about meaningless, but I could see all of them finding it boring. Something that's kind of being built up with Michael, given all the talk of him pushing rocks as the reason for his existence and how he defines himself. If the Good Place is just instant gratification with no conflict of any kind, there's no rock to push. Michael might find a new rock to push in trying to update the Good Place. Vicki is the new architect of the Bad Place, which has a purpose with a limited lifespan for it's residents, so maybe Michael will be the new architect of the Good Place and the conflict will be trying to find something for the residents to do with eternity beyond satisfy their own whims. Given what pushovers the Good Place committee are I could also see the Good Place being an actual shithole because all the bored residents have spent countless Jeremy Bearimess finding new ways to amuse themselves as a way to avoid boredom and have slipped in to depravity due to decadence. tsob fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 16:36
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There's also no real reason for Vicki to do anything. She's basically top dog in the Bad Place, as well as getting to do all the acting she wants. Why would she kick up a fuss, when it's endanger her own happiness? More to the point, what does this mean for Shawn?
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Jan 17, 2020 20:39
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What famous pre-15th Century people are they gonna look up once they get there? No way Chidi isn't going straight to meet some of his philosophy heroes.
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Jan 19, 2020 23:27
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Guy A. Person posted:Actually that would be a good way to trick them since there's no real way to do the test otherwise without wiping their memories They already did everything to reform The Good Place with the knowledge that they couldn't get in to the Good Place itself after the reformation because they knew about it. I honestly can't see why people want them to have to pass a test so much, because doing so won't change anything for the characters, the Judge or the audience. All of which already know that they have improved under those exact conditions in the past. It's a completely meaningless action. The Judge even explicitly stated Eleanor had improved so much in the past that she could go to the Good Place, even before any kind of reformation of the system or she had decided to do said reformation in the belief she could never go there herself even if she changed because she knew about it.
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Jan 21, 2020 09:39
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double nine posted:assuming that the final act will place team cockroach against the good place management, ... how do you win against an opponent that wants to let you win? How do you make someone put up a fight when their very essence is to be subservient? By setting the goal as something other than "make these people acknowledge out superiority"? They could win by reforming the Good Place regardless of whether the Good Place committee supports them or not, because doing something that has such wide-reaching consequences for the betterment of others is a good thing irrespective of whether the people formerly running it supported you or not in doing so.
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Jan 21, 2020 21:32
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1glitch0 posted:I will never have an idea where they are going in this show, but my guess would be reincarnation. Maybe forever? The Bad Place sucks, what with the penis flatteners and all, and if the Good Place sucks too because it's ran by the neo-liberals, maybe they just say do Earth over and over and over and end the afterlife all together. It's a bit of a dark ending because no one will ever get their "moral desserts", but it would hopefully eventually make everyone on Earth their best version of themselves and maybe, eventually, Earth would end up being the Good Place itself. Their current system essentially is reincarnation anyway, only it's constantly recycling through the afterlife rather than Earth. The main reason it even works in the first place is because all the desires and compromising situations you face in life are no longer present in the afterlife and so you can concentrate on improving yourself since you're no longer coming in to conflict with other people or causing them inadvertent suffering just by living your own life. If you constantly reincarnated on Earth then that no longer applies and while a small percentage of people might eventually improve enough to get in to The Good Place, the majority never would and instead you'd just have them spinning their wheels for a while as mostly similarly moral people and ending up in the Bad Place anyway because the choices they had to make to ensure a life for themselves on Earth damned them for eternity.
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Jan 23, 2020 19:26
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I think that's probably a bit much to be tackling in two episodes (or three, since I think the finale is double length?). In that same vein though I'd wonder what's the point of being judged at all? The only reason to set up a system that judges people's lives in that way is for some kind of higher purpose and eternal damnation or gratification doesn't really seem like it's worth doing it for. It's basically a self-fulfilling system where people are judged so that they can be punished or rewarded, but not to serve any further purpose beyond the idle whim of demons. Who seem to only exist to punish those people in the first place. More than that, what's the purpose of Earth in a system that actively acknowledges that living on Earth is kind of poo poo and is instead going to push you through dozens or even hundreds of afterlives to test you without any real goal or motive? Why not just have everyone live in the afterlife forever?
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Jan 23, 2020 20:23
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Krowley posted:It's Doug Forcett. It was always Doug Forcett.
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Jan 27, 2020 21:26
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Taear posted:I fundamentally disagree with this. I guess if the afterlife is how it's displayed here (where you're just a human on what's basically a holodeck) then yea, I guess. But why would you be? We're letting our brains be constrained by what exists now and not thinking in terms of being an infinite omnipotent being. The people in the afterlife within the show are not and never have been presented as omnipotent beings. The only beings within the show who are omnipotent are the Janets, most of whom don't feel anything in the first place because their consciousness is so basic and even Janet Janet isn't entirely omnipotent or omniscient, since she's had a few limitations presented to us. The people (and even the demons really) within the show are just humans in a new state, with all the flaws that entails, including the ability to experience boredom and that's kind of central to the show's premise since while the show is ostensibly set in the afterlife, it's still about finding joy and being good to each other in life regardless. Which means they cannot be not human. Taear posted:A tree is never bored, you're a being that can be that tree or anything you can imagine in that space. At least in theory. A tree is never stimulated either, because a tree is never anything; it just is so far as we know. It has no consciousness of any kind to the best of our ability to determine. Being a tree for all eternity is effectively the same as being a brain zombie, or really, the same as being dead for all eternity. Taear posted:And I've said it already but man the original goal of "points are broken" has been so totally and utterly loving forgotten, I really hope they kinda address it in the next episode. It was forgotten because they realized that the points were just the symptoms of a broken system and that it was the system that needed fixing and not the points in particular. tsob fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Jan 28, 2020 |
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Jan 28, 2020 09:31
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I doubt it'd work, because even the show's central Janet (and her bad place analogue who had been reset a lot) had trouble keeping track of one neighborhood of Janet babies, so a regular Good Place Janet would most likely just create more blatantly stupid mush people who are about as entertaining or believable as a dead frog.
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Jan 29, 2020 09:41
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Taear posted:I wanted it to be explicitly against capitalism and it feels like it's dropped that. It never picked it up in the first place. It wasn't capitalism that was loving up people and stopping them getting in to the good place, it was the increasing interconnectedness of society. In a society where you can reasonably expect your actions to affect or interact with someone on the other side of the world, even if only by degrees of contact, then every action you take affects them regardless of political, economic, religious or philosophical systems.
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Jan 30, 2020 22:43
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