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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
VICKI

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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
At that point it’s a sunk cost

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I am a strong independent acid snake

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Okay what the Hell is next

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
The shrimp machine!

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Lisa Kudrow!

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

BigBallChunkyTime posted:

There's math on my shirt!

Is it an S or a math?

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
drat I’m so not ready

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
For what it's worth I'm an Episcopalian, so I do believe in an afterlife. To me, I think part of it has always been "heaven" or its equivalent would come with some kind of raised consciousness, you'd be much wiser than you are now and so it wouldn't be just about filling all your smallest desires until there's nothing left to do. Like maybe you could for a while, no point not enjoying the cocktail shrimp dispenser, but ideas of Heaven can be interpreted as some kind of transcendent state of being, and stuff about streets of gold and whatever are just images. Analogies.

But again, the whole point of the show has never really been about theology, it's more about philosophy and human nature. (And I'd hate for it to come down on some explicit "The very idea of an afterlife is stupid, take that theists" note.) The Good Place's metaphysics clearly derive some of their structure from the Christian idea that there's a Heaven and Hell (though even this has a lot of after-the-fact theology on it, Jesus doesn't talk a lot about the afterlife), but of course they don't include ideas like salvation-through-faith or even the existence of an authoritative God. Schur isn't critiquing a specific religious idea about the universe or morality, the show handwaves that in the first episode with "Well, all the religions got a little bit right and most of it wrong, also there's this guy named Doug."

So like I don't think the end of the show is setting up the ideal system for the afterlife. It's gonna be about our ongoing moral/ethical obligations. Even the "fixing the Good Place" bit can be read as the Gang getting a new moral problem to solve and finding an ethical solution (giving people the choice of whether they want eternity or not.)

Again at least that's what I hope.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Regy Rusty posted:

Nonexistence not being the only alternative is cool

Yeah I like this. I’m now thinking Chidi and Eleanor will find some other path.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I like that one of Tahani’s projects was “Read Infinite Jest”

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Kristen Bell is so good.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
As I neither live nor breathe!

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Dammit, Janet!

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
ACTUAL FROG

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Ha and Mary Steenburgen.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Michael Realman

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

DemoneeHo posted:

Tahani is not going to stop until she becomes god, right?

I would accept that universe

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

TwoPair posted:

I thought it was pretty good but then after the Tahani non-door ending, seeing Chidi and Eleanor (and Jason the second time) go through seemed kinda lovely. Like "oh hey, there's other options besides cosmic suicide and mush brain... but we're not gonna explore that for everyone else"

I dunno I like that it’s you become part of the universe and specifically adding to the goodness of it. Very Buddhist obviously but it’s sorta like everyone has a choice how they want to make the universe better.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Android Blues posted:

Eh. To me it's functionally the same as the hokey "we're all just energy, death is just the energy taking a different form" platitude people come out with in the real world. Like, it's literally true that the atoms that make up a living human will go on to make up other objects after that person dies, but people frame this in a way that implies some sort of continuity for the individual's consciousness, or soul, in order to make the terrifying starkness of it comforting instead of upsetting. A less upbeat way of framing the wave metaphor is, like, "when you die, you're worm food".

I honestly found these last couple of episodes disturbing. The idea that death is a desirable alternative to eternal mediocrity (and they literally call it death in this episode) is so leaky philosophically, and insofar as it's an arguable idea at all I don't think the show argues it well. Watching the characters line up to destroy themselves in order to escape the monotonity of eternal perfection jarred a little. It felt like the show landed somewhere between wanting to write a metaphor about death in real life, and wanting to honour the terms of their sci-fi premise, and landed with one foot on each side, doing an awkward euthanasia splits across the chasm.

I mean the show posits it as something more than that, Eleanor specifically becomes something that pushes a person to do something nice. Like the positivity/morality they attained goes out into the universe, not just their atoms or whatnot. Obviously this is a viable metaphor if you insist on a strict materialist worldview- the good you do pushing other people to do good- but hey, for those irrational spiritual types among us it ain't too bad an idea either.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
We literally see Eleanor turn into something that has a positive effect on someone's behavior on Earth. That's what the door does. The exact nature of that little wisp isn't explained, but the good she did keeps on going.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I think an amount of ambiguity on this issue helps the end work, really.

Again if you don’t think there is an afterlife or souls or any of that, you can read the ending as metaphor- Eleanor truly dying as we all must, but her doing good mattered and will subtly prod others to do good.

If you do think there is (or might be) an afterlife, you can see this as Eleanor becoming something else- that having satisfied all her Earthly desires she becomes something transcendent.

And honestly it just makes sense as an end to her story. Eleanor- or what she was- continues to make the world a little better because in the end that’s what we should do.

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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
The major problem with immortality on Earth is, imagine all the horrible people in charge living forever. Because the rich will get that tech first and they’ll hoard it as much as they can.

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