"'The Good Place Season 4 - "It's okay to be sad"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > "'The Good Place Season 4 - "It's okay to be sad"

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

The question I'm pondering is how many episodes is this season going to stay in the experiment? This is the final season, after all. I just remember how pretty much every episode of this show ended with a last second interesting cliffhanger and this season hasn't so far, but I still expect that we should have two or three twists that escalate what is happening on the way to the end. But I'm guessing four episodes before the whole thing blows up into something new or different? At least has some twist like in Season 1 where Eleanor reveals she is the problem, or season 2 where Vicki takes over and the Soul Squad are in on things?

# ¿ Oct 5, 2019 00:18

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# ¿ Mar 19, 2025 20:27

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

This is "Shannon was stabbed" all over again.

It really is.

Did I miss something with Brent? Why is he on the right side of the board when they don't have him cracked? Just because he thinks he needs to be good to get into the Better Place?

# ¿ Oct 11, 2019 06:03

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Oh I get it, when they flushed the island, that was like rebooting Janet

# ¿ Oct 11, 2019 06:13

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

pwn posted:

Don�t make the same mistake. Post your crazy theories

Our heroes actually succeed in completely changing how the afterlife works at the cost of their own existence, and cease to exist in any form.

# ¿ Oct 23, 2019 16:05

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Kristen Bell directed that episode.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2019 06:06

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

What slice of the afterlife is Disco Janet over anyway?

# ¿ Nov 15, 2019 20:32

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Krowley posted:

Jason figured it out the first time! He said it something about it being a prank in mid s1

I think that was the very first episode.

Also there is another line I love in the first episode where Eleanor says "Maybe they are torturing each other" referring to her parents.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2019 01:37

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

oh jay posted:

the last scene

Interesting to me is that there is video of the table read of the last lines of the last script out there, but I've never seen anyone post about it anywhere.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2020 05:48

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

I do think they are going to find the Good Place isn't so good. Since good is trying to be better every day and trying to help the people around you. But no one there will need help. So I think they will all choose to reincarnate and it will be really sad as they are all going to sacrifice having each other to be able to go back and make a difference in the place that matters, actual Earth. Since what is the point of everyone getting better in the afterlife when their being better doesn't matter?

# ¿ Jan 17, 2020 21:13

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

I thought it was established that he is going to the bad place because his motivation isn't correct.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2020 02:07

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

I think it has to be that the suicide door becomes a reincarnation door, and our cast will walk through it together.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2020 06:40

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Argue posted:

The real Good Place would surely have infinite seasons of all your favorite shows--versions which never jump the shark, so I don't see the problem with living forever.

I've been thinking more and more about this post. The problem is supposed to be that eventually you just do everything. Novelty runs out eventually. But shouldn't there also be infinite novelty itself? Infinite good seasons of your favorite show is just one example.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2020 01:01

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Mordiceius posted:

It's diminishing returns though. There's a big difference between 4 seasons of a show and 100 seasons of a show. There's far less of a difference between 100 seasons of a show and 200 seasons of the same show. You can only add so much to something before it too becomes blasé.

The first few times I eat the most perfectly cooked steak dinner will be awesome. By the 100th time, it's just normal and boring.

There comes a point where nothing you can imagine would not be played out.

But not if there is an infinite number of possible foods/tv shows/experiences that could exist in a platonically perfect form.

Eating the same perfect pizza forever would get boring, sure, but eating a new perfect meal in a new perfect setting, with new different perfect dinner companions, with new perfect music playing you have never heard?

It's still a repetition of the experience of going out to dinner with cool people, and I'm sure I would want to break that up with alone time solo activities of which there are also infinite interesting ones, but I don't think I would ever really get tired of it.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2020 16:31

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Lutha Mahtin posted:

the dead sea scrolls are not canon in any of the abrahamic religions

Surely the religious community that considered them cannonical was Abrahamic

# ¿ Jan 28, 2020 22:38

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

I wasn't ready for this

# ¿ Jan 31, 2020 02:53

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

We really not going to see Michael's fire squid form?

# ¿ Jan 31, 2020 02:55

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Sub Rosa posted:

Interesting to me is that there is video of the table read of the last lines of the last script out there, but I've never seen anyone post about it anywhere.

So the table read I mentioned is in The Paley Center Salutes The Good Place, but the actual ending has absolutely nothing to do with what you see in the clip of that table read.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2020 03:47

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

The thing that hit me hardest in the feels was Tahani's parents being loving. That feeling of apprehension that turns out to not have been needed. To have two loving parents for the first time in your (after)life.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2020 06:05

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

I do think that it is reasonable to view it as a suicide door. The show was about what we owe to each other, and yes, we don't owe it to people to stick around when we are terminally ill, or to stay in any specific relationship, but part of being a good person is trying to help the people around you.

I thought the idea of the door would be more that people need the option, they don't have to actually take it so long as it is there.

Tahani deciding to stick around and help people makes her seem like the only character that really understood the moral message of the show.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2020 17:17

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

DoctorWhat posted:

If being in heaven so fundamentally changed my modes of thinking that I would be immune to boredom or complex emotions that would be murder - the system would have annihilated me and replaced me with some new, derivative person. If it "cured" my autism or ADHD that would be murder too. I don't think "too human" is a reasonable criticism. The show is about what being human is.

Except that this sort of identity philosophy is dumb. What being human is isn't about being static and unchangeable. There is continuity of identity through change. The Buddhist concept of dependent origination is exactly what the wave story is about. The wave changes as it comes to shore, but it's still recognizable as being the same wave as changes happen right up until it is no longer a wave. To say that you are murdered by changing means that three year old you was murdered by four year old you. That's just silly. There would still be that continuity of identity if your autism were cured.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2020 17:49

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

I also have ADHD and I'm not being annihilated when my meds kick in. I also wouldn't be annihilated when perfect heaven meds kick in.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2020 17:59

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Arist posted:

There's no version of me that exists without ADHD. It's part of my literal being, and has been for my entire life.

While no version has ever existed without ADHD, it doesn't mean that no version ever could. I agree it's presently part of you, but you are arguing that it is a necessary part of you, but part of the fun of spiritual and philosophical traditions this very show invokes, including at it's ending, is that none of our parts are unchangeable or indispensable.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2020 23:26

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

ImpAtom posted:

You can see all of human history, you can visit every alien planet, you can eat every food, pet every dog, read every book and then do it all over again. And then you still have an eternity to go.

The problem with this line of thinking is that in any given year there is more added to what may be experienced than may be experienced in the same time. Experiencing every bit of one thousand years of human history from the perspective of every single culture takes much longer than one thousand years. The number of things to do increases faster than you can cross them off the list of things to do. You can eventually catch up once humanity goes extinct, but yeah, there are the alien worlds and the infinite imaginary worlds. So experiencing everything is actually an impossible task even with infinite time because everything is also infinite and it has a head start.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2020 21:06

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Taear posted:

Yea exactly. And yet the show doesn't really say that. Okay it's fine that we can't see these things because of budgetary constraints and I'm down with that. But all they do is act like they're retired and that they're having only experiences that they can imagine themselves and that are built specifically for them by the architects and Janet.

Honestly I'm increasingly okay that of the infinite things to be done, some people would have a finite list to do. It's not that they couldn't have went to ancient Greece thousands of times, it's just that they didn't choose to. And going through the door when you have that feeling of peace isn't required.

I think the more interesting thing to me at this point keeps going back to what do we owe to each other. People exit when they don't have a purpose. Eleanor was done after she helped the only person she felt she had left to meaningfully help, Mindy. Michael tried to walk through when there was basically no more work to do in his job.

Again I feel Tahani is the only person who really got the moral message of the show. She found new people to help. She got a new job. She found new problems to solve. And as a metaphor for life, this fits with what people have said in this thread about people who live past 100 uniformly have some reason to get up in the morning.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2020 21:27

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

ImpAtom posted:

You are assuming that the three who went through the door just gave up and not that by becoming part of the universe they are continuing to improve and to help in other ways even if it isn't as the specific construct of whatever that was their human form.

They very literally according to the show are not doing that because they no longer exist, just like a wave no longer exists once it crashes on the shore. They cannot improve or help because they no longer exist. That the wave-water of their soul-essence splashes on someone and makes them do good is no more an act of their agency than it would be if they were cremated, and their ashes thrown in the face of Donald Trump, and that act made him realize he needed to be less of an rear end in a top hat.

Listen, I'm not saying it's bad to throw cremated human remains in Donald Trump's face, I'm just saying there is no agency of improving or helping people indicated by going through the door. It isn't a choice to help people, and that's still a choice that could be made once you have the internal peace and satisfaction of doing everything you ever wanted to do.

Sub Rosa fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Feb 1, 2020

# ¿ Feb 1, 2020 21:44

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

ImpAtom posted:

Except we are, again, literally shown they are still helping people. I feel like every argument boils down to "Well that doesn't count because it isn't their exact specific mind doing it but rather the matter of the universe which was a part of their soul" ignores a whole lot of storytelling to grumble about how selfish and spoiled it is.

No we aren't. It's literally the same episode as the wave story. This is a show about moral philosophy, so agency is a fundamental concept. Their agency in walking through the door is not to help people, while they could use their agency to choose to help people as we have the example of Tahani doing so, and they are no more the gold dots that give people a conscience than the water on the beach is a wave.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2020 21:58

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

ImpAtom posted:

So are you aware of the full quote there?

Not only the full quote but key Buddhist texts like the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā and how important the ramifications of śūnyatā on svabhāva are in regards to personal identity. Mādhyamaka is really loving sweet tbh

# ¿ Feb 1, 2020 22:16

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

ImpAtom posted:

So how the hell are you getting your reading there?

Basically because in the Buddhist context of the story, the point is not that the wave still exists after it is only the water that made it up, but rather that the form of the wave being identified as a wave was a transitory illusion. Which doesn't mean that transitory illusions aren't in anyway "real." To be precise in paramartha satya or ultimate truth, that transitory form was an illusion, as is everything dependently arisen, which is everything so nothing "exists". But in samvrti satya or limited truth, there is conventional reality in which things are "real" and the wave only "exists" in conventional reality while the parts of which it is dependently arisen are configured in the way such as the wave exists but not after. The wave understanding that it is water is having the understanding that it is dependently arisen, that it is empty of essence or svabhāva or own-being. Which is true of all things, śūnyatā. Realizing this resolves all attachment to the further maintenance of the transitory form, so the wave then has no anxiety about death. But this doesn't mean that in samvrti satya the state change from conventionally existing to not conventionally existing isn't real or meaningful.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2020 22:39

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Azhais posted:

People really seen to be taking "What we owe to each other" to be "What you owe to me"

Nobody is obligated to stick around on the off chance you need them for something

Clearly sometimes what we owe to others is letting them leave. That doesn't change that choosing to end your existence when you aren't in chronic pain / terminally ill / etc rather than sticking around to contribute generally makes sense in the context of the moral argument of the show.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2020 05:18

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Good article with the philosophers that had cameos in the finale and whose work influenced the series

https://slate.com/culture/2020/02/the-good-place-finale-ending-explained-philosopher-cameos-analysis.html

# ¿ Feb 4, 2020 02:37

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Yeah, she is initially the worst person imaginable but like, only within the scope of what this show is dealing with.

Brent is worse

# ¿ Feb 7, 2020 18:59

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Rabbi Raccoon posted:

So at what point do they stop the tests and just say "gently caress it, this guy's a lost cause" and just torture them forever?

Testing them forever is torturing them forever.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2020 00:33

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

I liked the end of Lost, the end of BSG, The Last Jedi AND The Rise of Skywalker. It's good to be able to like things. (Don't remind me that I'm a wrestling fan that can't find a way to like any current wrestling.)

# ¿ Feb 17, 2020 02:01

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# ¿ Mar 19, 2025 20:27

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

So my partner of about five years and I broke up a few months ago, but we stayed pretty much best friends after. It had been an LDR but with frequent visits. Even a great visit in January after we were broken up. We had always watched The Good Place together. I hadn't been waiting, but she had, and we binged all of the last season together except the last episode because it was after she left. We were going to watch it next month when we were going to see each other again. A couple days ago she told me that she choosing to sever, and I get and respect that decision. I'm still very very sad to lose my best friend of course. We kicked off our very last conversation ever by watching the finale at the same time. We both cried a lot, and yeah... It's okay to be sad. My last words to her were "Take it sleazy."

Thank you Good Place for providing such a perfectly resonant finale, that helped me express both how sad I was to lose my favorite person, and also how proud I was of her for leaving when she knew it was time even though she knew it would hurt someone she loves.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2020 21:40

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