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Have you ever been to the moon? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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149 | 32.82% |
| Absolutely |
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100 | 22.03% |
| I want to talk to Samson |
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205 | 45.15% |
| Total: | 454 votes | ||
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Bust Rodd posted:Theres a wide gap between "Basic LFG functionality" which would be good and "Literally doing everything for you to the point that no one ever need communicate" People have to communicate for LFG tools in WoW and FFXIV, unless your standard for "communication" is spamming trade chat for hours. Like it's literally just putting up a group that people can sign up to join and you either invite them or not.
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May 26, 2020 19:28
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Having this: https://www.bungie.net/en/ClanV2/FireteamSearch?platform=4&activityType=0&lang=&groupid=& in the game itself, modified so that joining a fireteam actually puts your character into the fireteam is all that's needed. Nobody is asking for raids to be dumbed down.
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May 26, 2020 19:36
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Ellipson posted:It's a super hard thing to balance though. Making a raid that's interesting for teams but doable for LFG is a hard balance to strike, and playing with others is really the best way to play this game. I dunno I just find it really hard to imagine that there's people out there who like the weird symbol call out stuff and standing in one spot together for a DPS phase because the boss has no AI. Like the only non-combat portion of a raid that I can think of which is good is the sparrow racing section in Scourge and that requires no comms you just gotta be good and zoomy. The start of Crota's End where you're all running around in the dark dodging pits and just trying to get to the end is fun as well and it's all intuitive stuff that doesn't require the back and forth of "Okay, dong! Dong!" "Semi or fully erect?" "What?" *Team wipes*. I also wish Bungie wasn't obsessed with carrying balls the only time that's acceptable is in Rift and they still haven't brought it back which is hosed up. ponzicar posted:Nobody is asking for raids to be dumbed down. lol I am. Bungie can do hard content that's fun without the crappy stuff raids have. Then they could get more than like what, 3% of players actually getting to experience them? Everyone should experience that awesome fall section before the boss in Eater of Worlds but also nobody should have to endure the platforming to get there or the actual mechanics of the fight itself.
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May 26, 2020 19:58
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Garden of salvation is nowhere near as fun as vault of glass or wrath of the machine because it's overloaded with finicky gimmicks. I'll take Templar or Vosiks over Consecrated Mind any day. Raids should be about 'simple to do but hard to execute'. Not figuring out the da vinci code while spinning plates. The mechanics absolutely should be dumbed down. They are getting excessive - nowhere near the low point of spire of stars thankfully, but it's creeping back that way.
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May 26, 2020 20:01
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Personally I think it's Good that there raids with mechanics. I don't need all the content to be the same level of difficulty. And if carrying a ball to a plate is too hard then just https://twitter.com/_mantis_/status/731238892192419840?s=20 If you want to be challenged by mechanics, you can do a raid or a dungeon. If you want to be challenged by having low health and low damage, do Grandmasters. If you want to have no challenge at all, do Strikes and Lost Sectors. Something for every mood! D1 had a good solution for the "I want to see the raid without doing the raid!" community by putting a story mission in the raid zones, too
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May 26, 2020 20:22
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ponzicar posted:Having this: https://www.bungie.net/en/ClanV2/FireteamSearch?platform=4&activityType=0&lang=&groupid=& in the game itself, modified so that joining a fireteam actually puts your character into the fireteam is all that's needed. Nobody is asking for raids to be dumbed down. HAHA I had no idea that was on the site. I suppose that just proves my point really. And no im not asking for raid content to be dumbed down or easy. I'm quite happy for it to be very hard, just easier to access for those who don't have a huge clan and are unable to always be free on 'raid night'. Moving that page to in game would probably solve the problem.
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May 26, 2020 20:26
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Has Bungie ever said how they expect players to interact with Raids & Secret Missions organically? I've seen official tweets from Bungie that talk about how they don't want exciting things in Destiny 2 to be discovered via the Internet, but the Outbreak Perfected quest seems like it would become some kind of 10 year old Easter Egg nobody ever discovered if players didn't look up tutorials online. With Raids, I understand that there's some excitement from a small number of fireteams competing for Day 1 completions, but do they really expect everybody to have to figure out every mechanic and optimization on there own the first time through? Or if they expect Sherpas to naturally emerge over time to pass on Raid knowledge like that scene from Beyond Thunderdome, do they think that will allow most of the player base to engage with the Raids in an enjoyable way? Raids have such a high barrier to entry followed by an almost immediate transition to becoming just another weekly loot-based activity. It feels like when somebody asks a lovely riddle or gives you a lateral-thinking puzzles; it doesn't feel possible to figure it out on your own, and it's unrewarding/irritating once you learn the answer. I know some people really love Raid content, but they seem like a really poor investment on Bungie's part given all the unique assets and mechanics and story they have to create for them without having the infrastructure or design framework for a lot of players to engage with them. Full disclosure: the Pit of Heresy dungeon is the closest I've come to doing any of the Raids, but I've watched tutorials on the most recent Raids and realized that I would loving hate the experience if I hosed up a non-combat mechanic and caused a team wipe, or if somebody else hosed up a non-combat mechanic and caused a team wipe.
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May 26, 2020 20:26
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Bust Rodd posted:Theres a wide gap between "Basic LFG functionality" which would be good and "Literally doing everything for you to the point that no one ever need communicate" Only true Destiny fans know that any attempt to streamline the LFG process for non-matchmaking events would be a total betrayal of the spirit of the game.
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May 26, 2020 20:52
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I find it so funny just how reflexively weird some posters get the second someone says something to the effect of "I wish there was an easier version of the raid." Like what people want is more interesting/engaging/rewarding content that doesn't require you to manually find 5 other people to do it. Dungeons and stuff like zero hour / Whisper are okay examples of this - smaller group, not overly hard, but they do still lack matchmaking so if you don't have friends, it's not going to do you much good. Balancing match-made content to be challenging, engaging, rewarding while also not being too frustrating and still manageable by the group is no easy task, but other developers have managed it. It's understandable that people don't have faith in bungie to pull it off, but like, don't blame posters for that.
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May 26, 2020 20:53
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I just want Divinity. I have to find people willing to raid, willing to show me the raid, and willing to do the extra steps. I'm not dumb or anything, I've done two raids blind, back to back in the same night even and got them done. But randoms don't trust anybody they don't know/don't feel like doing the extra again or can't find a group. I've watched videos on how to do it, it's not that complicated but I'm not confident enough to guide a team. I really don't see how matchmaking/in game would make this worse. It's the same thing we already do anyway. And if you're raiding people usually have a mic to talk everything out.
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May 26, 2020 20:54
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Garden of salvation is nowhere near as fun as vault of glass or wrath of the machine because it's overloaded with finicky gimmicks. I'll take Templar or Vosiks over Consecrated Mind any day. If you dumbed down raid mechanics then you would just have a 6 player strike. Raids are already pretty simple mechanically when figured out, you just listen to specific callouts and progress. Riven is probably the hardest with all the symbols and specific eyes. Spire has a bunch of spinning plates, but I wouldn't say it needs to be dumbed down. But I mean, according to your raid report you haven't even done any crown or garden attempts, so you sure have some strong opinions about them.
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May 26, 2020 21:00
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Yeah I've done all raids save EoW and I also find the callout mechanic extremely boring after the first time. It's why I have very little love for Last Wish, and why Scourge is far and ahead my favourite raid. I agree that there are other modes for pure combat challenges, and raids should be a test of execution. But Bungie *has* made some encounters that don't rely on shouting shibboleths into a mic. The GoS boss is great, you have a bunch of things to do (build, gambit, defend) but you're free to split or rotate or adapt on the fly. Insurrection Prime is also pretty good, you need to kill the berserkers and drop the shields and fend off the Fallen, and every player can help; just wish the map reader role wasn't so static. More encounters like those, fewer 'now call out the glowing thing'. And of course every raid should have one non-combat or combat-light encounter like the Scourge sparrow race or the Leviathan gardens - yeah it's fiddly and often frustrating, but there isn't anything like it in the game.
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May 26, 2020 21:04
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Doing Riven legit with a good team is probably one of the most fun things raid encounter wise. But it is unforgiving and causing a wipe because someone accidentally shot a wrong eye is a bit poo poo which is why barely anyone has actually done riven properly since the cheese method is more efficient and pretty simple to do.
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May 26, 2020 21:09
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charismaslover posted:If you dumbed down raid mechanics then you would just have a 6 player strike. Tiering raids into difficulty levels would hardly be a difficult thing to do, and greatly expand the userbase interested in them. Make an EZ mode with a limited loot pool where boss mechanics are largely simplified so people get a baseline level of confidence and familiarity. Make the regular version with the regular loot pool, for those who want to jump into it right away or those who learned the basics via EZ mode. The number of people who play Destiny but have never bothered with raids is a huge deficit to the game's reputation due to how enjoyable they can be. I completed all D1 raids but have only bothered with Leviathan and Eater of Worlds in D2 because 1) they're very time consuming even with a good PUG 2) wipes with PUGs make you become a nihilist and 3) I loving hate looking for PUGs. Arkage fucked around with this message at 21:13 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 21:10
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I always thought it would be cool to maybe make a strike version of a raid, make mechanics simple but familiar, so that people then who want to make the jump aren't completely lost. But yeah, looking and finding raid groups is the games biggest issue for how cool the content is. I had a stable raid crew from the SA LFG thread for D1 back in the day, and if it wasn't for Discord and the goon crews then I probably wouldn't have raided in D2 at all. My experiences with LFG.com in D1 were all loving terrible, filled with the worst people.
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May 26, 2020 21:17
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Personally I think it's Good that there raids with mechanics. I don't need all the content to be the same level of difficulty. And if carrying a ball to a plate is too hard then just That stuff's in strikes too because it's boring filler 
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May 26, 2020 21:20
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The thing that always gets me is that people are desperate for a fireteam for raids, they will post day and night about how they just terribly want to finally do that Garden of Salvation, won't you please oh please find me 5 volunteers to guide me through it, and yet when we say "OK great, just watch this YouTube video so you have a vague idea of what's going on" the answer is always 'Lol No I learn better by doing' Yet when the raid begins and we dump 5 minutes of explanations on him he's overwhelmed and says This Is DUMB I just wanna shoot bad guys!!!
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May 26, 2020 21:23
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Arkage posted:Tiering raids into difficulty levels would hardly be a difficult thing to do, and greatly expand the userbase interested in them. Make an EZ mode with a limited loot pool where boss mechanics are largely simplified so people get a baseline level of confidence and familiarity. Make the regular version with the regular loot pool, for those who want to jump into it right away or those who learned the basics via EZ mode. The number of people who play Destiny but have never bothered with raids is a huge deficit to the game's reputation due to how enjoyable they can be. I completed all D1 raids but have only bothered with Leviathan and Eater of Worlds in D2 because 1) they're very time consuming even with a good group and 2) wipes with PUGs make you become a nihilist and 3) I loving hate looking for PUGs. Agreed. They could even use this as an opportunity to fix the time-limited raid rewards: EZmode: mechanics (but a little easier), matchmaking, include a few quest markers/prompts/hints (enough that a semi-competent no-mic group can fumble through), current raid loot (~1-2 items per encounter, limited to 1 drop per encounter per week), maybe include 1-2 “mercy” bounties that reward a piece of raid loot if you get enough kills in the raid (to encourage people to try even if they fail) PrestigeMode: harder mechanics/enemies, no prompts or markers at all (like it is now), better raid loot (3-4 items per encounter, repeatable loot drops), unique emblems/exotics/glows, much like the distinction between prestige leviathan and regular leviathan -Stuff like no cheese riven would be more like #2, while cheese riven would be more like #1. -It would provide more incentive for people to try the raids and learn the enemies/layout -after people run their 1 EZ raid per week, but want more loot, they’ll be incentivized and more confident to try the hard mode version -no more dunking of orbs, for the love of god They already do the same stuff for nightfalls (matchmaking in easy mode, no matchmaking in the harder modes) and it works pretty well.
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May 26, 2020 21:23
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:The thing that always gets me is that people are desperate for a fireteam for raids, they will post day and night about how they just terribly want to finally do that Garden of Salvation, won't you please oh please find me 5 volunteers to guide me through it, and yet when we say "OK great, just watch this YouTube video so you have a vague idea of what's going on" the answer is always TBF there are raids where you can watch an hour-long video, then listen to a rambling 5-10 minute explanation, and still feel lost because the mechanics are just so complex or obscure. I’d say that’s less a problem with the players and more a problem with the raid design. They should build on the fundamentals of the game (teamwork, shooting, mobility) and require <5 minutes max to explain, or have 1-2 players doing add control while everyone else does the mechanics (ie. scourge)
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May 26, 2020 21:26
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charismaslover posted:But I mean, according to your raid report you haven't even done any crown or garden attempts, so you sure have some strong opinions about them. Don’t be lovely. 
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May 26, 2020 21:27
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Fly Molo posted:have 1-2 players doing add control while everyone else does the mechanics (ie. scourge) Yesssss this is my favorite for sure. It makes it easy to rotate a new person in to a raid without them needing to know/do anything but still give them some exposure to like... hearing how the raid works All raids should have 1-2 Idiot Spots and not just for the sake of new people but also because it usually means 1 death won't doom a 20 minute encounter Destiny 1 raids didn't have revives and it fuckin' sucked
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May 26, 2020 21:29
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Fly Molo posted:Don’t be lovely. I wouldn't say it's lovely to expect someone to have actually done the content they are saying isn't fun?
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May 26, 2020 21:34
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Yesssss this is my favorite for sure. It makes it easy to rotate a new person in to a raid without them needing to know/do anything but still give them some exposure to like... hearing how the raid works Yup, more people would do raids if there was a way to ease into it. The ones where all 6 need to be on-point 24/7 are a bitch to teach or learn. Even if they literally stuck dumbed down raid encounters in the strike playlist, it would get people to try them, while providing some much-needed new strike content.
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May 26, 2020 21:35
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I'm surprised they haven't used any of the raid spaces for story missions like D1 did. That way players could still see what some of the raid looked like without having to actually do it.
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May 26, 2020 21:37
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charismaslover posted:I wouldn't say it's lovely to expect someone to have actually done the content they are saying isn't fun? People are allowed to criticize a poo poo sandwich without eating every last bite. Plus, that’s an easy way to turn every discussion into a dick-measuring contest, ie. “well I checked ur Trials report and u can’t criticize trials unless you’ve gone flawless 10+ times like me u filthy casual  “gently caress that noise, it benefits no one
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May 26, 2020 21:42
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charismaslover posted:I'm surprised they haven't used any of the raid spaces for story missions like D1 did. yeah, or turning more story missions into strikes. it’s insane how they’ve managed to pull off neglecting PvE and PvP simultaneously.
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May 26, 2020 21:43
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Fly Molo posted:People are allowed to criticize a poo poo sandwich without eating every last bite. Plus, that’s an easy way to turn every discussion into a dick-measuring contest, ie. “well I checked ur Trials report and u can’t criticize trials unless you’ve gone flawless 10+ times like me u filthy casual That's hardly what i'm saying, but there's a difference between watching a video/stream on content and actually experiencing the content, especially when you are saying to dumb down mechanics. If you still don't like it after having played it, then fair enough.
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May 26, 2020 21:47
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:The thing that always gets me is that people are desperate for a fireteam for raids, they will post day and night about how they just terribly want to finally do that Garden of Salvation, won't you please oh please find me 5 volunteers to guide me through it, and yet when we say "OK great, just watch this YouTube video so you have a vague idea of what's going on" the answer is always I don't believe this has ever actually happened to anyone so I want to see if it's real or not. Name and shame 'em! charismaslover posted:I'm surprised they haven't used any of the raid spaces for story missions like D1 did. They actually added new areas to the VoG for that weapon mission which was really cool because even if you'd done the raid there was still new stuff to see and the extra lore stuff in that mission was cool as well. I feel sorry for people that never got to see the final boss room because although the fight was meh the visuals with all the glass looked cool as hell and was an awesome aesthetic - imagine a PvP map like that  I like how they were going for something similar with the Leviathan where it's just so big and there's so much to explore but, you know...Arkage posted:Tiering raids into difficulty levels would hardly be a difficult thing to do, and greatly expand the userbase interested in them. Make an EZ mode with a limited loot pool where boss mechanics are largely simplified so people get a baseline level of confidence and familiarity. If they made altered versions of raids where all the symbols and dumb stuff was replaced with more combat encounters and the bosses had AI rather than DPS phases nobody would ever play the original versions of the raids ever again. Like imagine someone telling Luke Smith that the version of the raid that focused on shooting stuff good was hugely successful and matchmaking was working great and people loved it? He'd probably lock himself in his office for a week before emerging with a plan to sunset exotics or something.
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May 26, 2020 21:49
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Absolutely do not “dumb down” raids, that’s literally what makes them raids. Easy raids already exist and they’re called dungeons. And if you’re wishing that Bungie would make MORE dungeons instead of spending time and effort on how they can take away players’ cool toys, congrats, that’s what this thread has been complaining about for weeks.
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May 26, 2020 21:51
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The best way I've found to teach new people raids, is to give them a specific job for an encounter. Explain to them only what they need to know and they can see how things go as they play. The next time they do the raid, give them a different job and then they get to know how every part of the fights work without being overwhelmed by over explanations on their first raid.
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May 26, 2020 21:52
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Fly Molo posted:yeah, or turning more story missions into strikes. it’s insane how they’ve managed to pull off neglecting PvE and PvP simultaneously. This video is officially the funniest poo poo, in retrospect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULylfWkkrPI&t=540s "Season 8 is the catalyst, Season 9 is really where things start to build, and Season 10 is where things start to get pretty intense, and then Season 11 everything is going to come together and you're gonna want to be there to see it happen. It's going to be like no other time in Destiny"
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May 26, 2020 21:57
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I'm really curious what Bungie could do if they kept this engine going forward into next gen, bumped consoles to 60fps and focused on making really difficult combat encounters rather than fancy new graphics. E.g. keeping the game the same as it is now but a fireteam walks into a room and there's literally 500 enemies or something. Stupidly, ridiculously difficult but also incredibly fun and chaotic.
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May 26, 2020 22:02
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I remember thinking that when D2 launched on console having ditched the ps3 and 360 finally. 
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May 26, 2020 22:04
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Oh God. "[Vex Offensive] is the catalyst, [Sundial] is really where things start to build, and [Seraph Tower Public Event] is where things start to get pretty intense, and then Season 11 everything is going to come together and you're gonna want to be there to see it happen. It's going to be like no other time in Destiny" This means Season 11 will have all 3 activities switched back on, doesn't it
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May 26, 2020 22:05
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Fly Molo posted:People are allowed to criticize a poo poo sandwich without eating every last bite. Plus, that’s an easy way to turn every discussion into a dick-measuring contest, ie. “well I checked ur Trials report and u can’t criticize trials unless you’ve gone flawless 10+ times like me u filthy casual I'm sorry but this is the dumbest thing I've ever read in this god forsaken thread.
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May 26, 2020 22:07
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:This video is officially the funniest poo poo, in retrospect Luke says "Forsaken broke a bunch of the bones we set with Destiny 2, what we've been able to do this year is reset them. Are we done? NO." What did Forsaken do that was so bad?
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May 26, 2020 22:10
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Here's my raid report: https://raid.report/pc/4611686018467947339 With that out of the way I 100% agree Scourge and Eater are the best raids because they involve actually playing the shootmans part of the game and not "simon says the big wing bird, no not the perching bird now you've wiped us" or "our tether didn't connect for some reason, so no damage phase. Time to spend five minutes picking up triangles before we get to try again." It's also why Queenswalk is way more fun and exciting than Riven herself.
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May 26, 2020 22:11
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Oh God. They're talking about narrative design.
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May 26, 2020 22:13
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GentlemanGiant posted:Here's my raid report: https://raid.report/pc/4611686018467947339 The queens walk is more fun than riven because the music is cooler imo. Also is it just me or does the tether in the garden boss encounter feel worse than the tethers in the previous encounters? It just feels off sometimes like it doesn't at any other part of the raid.
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May 26, 2020 22:15
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Ham posted:They're talking about narrative design. Yikes, that's far more embarrassing. Their in-game narrative has been... absent entirely. Like, they didn't even attempt to deliver on this. "You're gonna want to be there to see [The new lore tabs on the seasonal gear] . It's going to be like no other time in Destiny"
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May 26, 2020 22:16
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