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Spikes32
Jul 25, 2013


Someone is just probably trying to organize and oust the current board and doesn't have contact info for everyone in the community.

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remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably




Hell Gem

Spikes32 posted:

Someone is just probably trying to organize and oust the current board and doesn't have contact info for everyone in the community.

You may be right. I checked Nextdoor and someone is extremely mad about the lack of assigned parking and trying to sue lol.

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



Private Speech posted:

As an actual question are there any more open-minded HOAs, where everything I've listed above goes, that are in nice neighbourhoods and still take care of common expenses?

Ours is fairly open. We don't go "out" to look for crap. About everyone knows to take care of their property and there is always code enforcement to handle the outliers.

I lived here for ten years, I got "dinged" once for failure of operational front lawn light. I think that was in my first year of living here.

But yeah, getting dinged 5 times in a year would make my blood boil.

WithoutTheFezOn
Aug 28, 2005
Oh no

Private Speech posted:

As an actual question are there any more open-minded HOAs, where everything I've listed above goes, that are in nice neighbourhoods and still take care of common expenses?
Without everything you listed? Probably not many. I’ve seen quite a few that only have one or two of those things, like “no parking in the street” or “no short term rentals”.

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


WithoutTheFezOn posted:

Without everything you listed? Probably not many. I’ve seen quite a few that only have one or two of those things, like “no parking in the street” or “no short term rentals”.

I guess it's just one of those US things, like under-18 curfews, rolling coal, corporal punishment and half the people having guns.

Considering just the example given by Colostomy Bag even that seems quite unreasonable to me. It's, well, do I get fined if I replace most of my lawn with a vegetable patch? Or a bunch of mint and lavender bushes? What if I don't want any lights on there?

e: To be clear those well all things that we had in our suburban house in the UK which I shared with a bunch of working professionals. Then again that's also a bit "lol UK" because we're talking about an engineer working in a film industry, a mental health therapist, foreign university lecturer and software engineer (me) sharing a semi-detached house with two floors.

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 18:12 on May 30, 2020

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



Private Speech posted:

I guess it's just one of those US things, like under-18 curfews, rolling coal, corporal punishment and half the people having guns.

Considering just the example given by Colostomy Bag even that seems quite unreasonable to me. It's, well, do I get fined if I replace most of my lawn with a vegetable patch? Or a bunch of mint and lavender bushes? What if I don't want any lights on there?

e: To be clear those well all things that we had in our suburban house in the UK which I shared with a bunch of working professionals. Then again that's also a bit "lol UK" because we're talking about an engineer working in a film industry, a mental health therapist, foreign university lecturer and software engineer (me) sharing a semi-detached house with two floors.

A fair point, and talking over the pond and all differences and all that...

I guess I would say in the shortest words possible that we agree with the "covenants" on basic type behavior. Which no one ever loving reads when they sign off for the mortgage papers. And to be honest, I didn't either.

I guess most of it is self-regulating. It is like a 'Stepford Wives' scenario. In short, your lawn is poo poo so fix it or be ostracized. Or wait for code enforcement.

I dunno, hard to articulate it.

cheque_some
Dec 6, 2006
The Wizard of Menlo Park

Private Speech posted:

I guess it's just one of those US things, like under-18 curfews, rolling coal, corporal punishment and half the people having guns.

Considering just the example given by Colostomy Bag even that seems quite unreasonable to me. It's, well, do I get fined if I replace most of my lawn with a vegetable patch? Or a bunch of mint and lavender bushes? What if I don't want any lights on there?

e: To be clear those well all things that we had in our suburban house in the UK which I shared with a bunch of working professionals. Then again that's also a bit "lol UK" because we're talking about an engineer working in a film industry, a mental health therapist, foreign university lecturer and software engineer (me) sharing a semi-detached house with two floors.

And there are plenty of parts of the US where the idea of a HOA is foreign and enforcement of various ordinances is handled by the municipal government and people roll their eyes at the idea of an HOA telling you what color you can paint your house.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

cheque_some posted:

And there are plenty of parts of the US where the idea of a HOA is foreign and enforcement of various ordinances is handled by the municipal government and people roll their eyes at the idea of an HOA telling you what color you can paint your house.

Yes. Most of the land mass of the country.

Many of the more populated places where you may want to live are aware of HOAs because they have friends living in them and go "lol no" unless there are literally no other options.

I have a 100 acre development (I guess it a few separate ones) across the street from me with an HOA. gently caress no my house isn't part of that poo poo. It was built when that was a soy bean/corn field.

My house and the adjoining property is mine, subject to muni taxes and property management code. Not a rotating board of whoever couldn't pass muster to get into local government but really wants to tell people what to do.

Many of the people in this thread do not have the options I have. If I was in that position I'd be on the board with them.

Motronic fucked around with this message at 01:59 on May 31, 2020

remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably




Hell Gem

Ok I just got two more violation notifications today and a $50 fine for “putting something in the common area” which I did not do, and having something “unsightly” outside...no idea wtf they are talking about. What recourse do I have? They won’t return my calls and I’m feeling really helpless right now.

Rooted Vegetable
Jun 1, 2002



Check your State or Provincial Laws governing HOAs (aka Stratas in BC). Some force the requirement to hold a hearing if requested and provide for further dispute resolution of that fails.

remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably




Hell Gem

Heners_UK posted:

Check your State or Provincial Laws governing HOAs (aka Stratas in BC). Some force the requirement to hold a hearing if requested and provide for further dispute resolution of that fails.

Thank you, I will look into that! I did get someone on the phone today and she said we were supposed to call them to see what the violation was for...which is bullshit.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

remigious posted:

I did get someone on the phone today and she said we were supposed to call them to see what the violation was for...which is bullshit.

This is the type of petty tyrant HOA that everyone hates. Why wouldn't those details be in the notice of violation?

Answer: because that would be written documentation of that pettiness/probably completely wrong (civil contract law, municipal code etc). The only reason you don't write it down is because you are hiding something. So keep notes.

You need to run for the HOA board like, right now, if you intend to stay there long term.

remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably




Hell Gem

Motronic posted:

You need to run for the HOA board like, right now, if you intend to stay there long term.
Yeah, I really should. I don’t want to move, but if things don’t change I will lose my drat mind.

Rooted Vegetable
Jun 1, 2002



Thought I'd best link to the kind of pages I mean above. the Government of BC has some decent plain language pages on how to operate a Strata (equivalent of a HOA in many cases) in BC: https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/housing-tenancy/strata-housing

See if your local government has the same.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Private Speech posted:

Reading this thread as a european it all seems utterly bugfuck insane.
As with a lot of US problems, the issue stems from the fact that development companies can go ahead and say "We're throwing 25 townhomes on this lot that formerly held 5 ranch/farmer style homes. Also we don't want to pay for upkeep so they'll loving figure it out." The HOA lands are separate from the responsibilities of local government save for things like making sure power, sewage, water pipe into the lot correctly. Obviously local government loves that because then they go "hah gently caress yeah we don't have to respond to someone saying the pavement in their commons driveway cracked and poo poo!"

And HOAs vary wildly. You have some that are TIC-related because it's a 4-plex that's actually "owned" by everyone and dirt cheap, or a row of 450 Townhomes that are in a planned development and maintain a water park, activity room, lido deck, gym, mini-theatre... or a complex with 30 units in a condo where everyone shares walls and roofs and poo poo.

Any local regulatory board here would be so toothless as to be ineffective or so stacked with local politicos that it'd just be another tangle of poo poo to deal with. Though some of the friction between homeowners and boards is due to the fact that they don't quite understand the covenants (or they're written so terribly it allows the hoa to shirk duties or be way, way too tyrannical). So you get someone that buys a home and doesn't understand why they can't do things they assume they should when it's "their home".

The thing that's messy about it is that, because of the housing markets, sometimes the places with HOAs are the only affordable option you have.

remigious posted:

This morning I found a sticker on my door saying that our HOA is being mismanaged, and I should contact the email provided for more information.
It could be financial mismanagement (wait I'm paying $200 a month and all the plants are dead and the fence is falling down wtf?) or mismanagement of the duties (no assigned parking even though it's stated in the covenants). OR it might just be someone going "I really want to install a hot tub in my front yard/paint my house bubblegum blue and SIC SEMPER TYRANNUS!"

remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably




Hell Gem

Yeah I I have another development and need help before I do or say something dumb. We got another citation for not picking up dog waste. They said they have a video, so we asked to see it. The video is from our neighbors ring camera. It clearly shows our dog pooping and then picking it up. But why the gently caress is my neighbor spying on us and sending that poo poo to the hoa??? Should I go talk to the neighbor?

Mr. Fall Down Terror
Jan 24, 2018


HOAs aren't inherently bad, they just become bad if they're used as an enforcement tool for petty tyrants to play dictator games with their neighbors

on the one hand, HOAs are a near ideal form of organization for shared housing. anyone who lives in a condominium needs something like an HOA to deal with common building maintenance and utilities

on the other hand, if you live in a neighborhood of detached freestanding homes with no common property, then there is no purpose at all to an HOA and it only exists for the nebulous concept of "maintaining property values"

for this reason, you don't hear much from HOAs which are well managed and deal with necessary tasks like making sure everyone who lives under the same roof chips in for roof repair. but you do hear much about HOAs which fine people for parking on the street outside their house, or hassle people for not mowing their lawns frequently enough

remigious posted:

Yeah I I have another development and need help before I do or say something dumb. We got another citation for not picking up dog waste. They said they have a video, so we asked to see it. The video is from our neighbors ring camera. It clearly shows our dog pooping and then picking it up. But why the gently caress is my neighbor spying on us and sending that poo poo to the hoa??? Should I go talk to the neighbor?

put your dispute in writing and take it along with the video to whoever enforces the fines. probably it's some property management company. talking to the neighbor won't be useful if they're the kind of dickhole who films you picking up dog poo poo then telling people you didn't

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Your Covenants should have a process where you are notified of the issue, given a chance to rectify it or challenge it, and then submit the result to the board (in person) for a decision.

If not? That poo poo's hosed.

Make sure none of this is resulting in actual charges or that they can issue immediate credits if they are adding it to your payments.

It's possible the rear end in a top hat neighbor was like "I put my ring up on community sentry mode so y'all can just watch my videos" and someone on the board has too much time... but you're due an explanation either way.

remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably




Hell Gem

It’s so hard to try to get this sorted about because the women that issues the citations from the property management firm has only answered her phone once in like the dozen times I’ve called her. Maybe I should just drive down to the office and hope she’s there? I can’t sleep because of this stupid bullshit.
And I’m also just pissed because I don’t want to be filmed walking the perimeter of my building. But apparently there’s nothing I can do about that. gently caress Ring.

Douchebag
Oct 21, 2005


In today’s episode of HOA Fun, a nosy neighbor posted a picture in our community Facebook group and I went ballistic.

We have been redoing our entire condo since just before Memorial Day, ripped out old carpet and baseboard, painted the whole place, installed laminate on our lower level etc. We decided to hire a company to put new carpet in our 2 bedrooms and stairwells, which took place today. To save a few hundred we said we would dispose of the old carpet ourselves (taking it over to our bulk pickup corral), so the carpet company just left it at the end of my driveway, and they left around 330 this afternoon. I was waiting for my wife to get home with her SUV so we could haul it over to bulk. The carpet was sitting there for less than 2 hours. Enter nosy neighbor.

She posts some passive aggressive “well this is something new!” type post. My wife went nuts on her and even the property manager chimed in saying she was going to get to the bottom of this and fine those people. I called the property manager and told her the petty bullshit needs to stop, especially from property management and board members. Thankfully there’s a board meeting tomorrow night and I get to address this directly with all of them.

I loving loathe HOA’s and I can’t wait to sell this place and move out. If it’s not the lovely management or board members it’s the petty, nosy neighbors.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Douchebag posted:

I loving loathe HOA’s and I can’t wait to sell this place and move out. If it’s not the lovely management or board members it’s the petty, nosy neighbors.
Hope it went in your favor. Did you review the community covenants. You can shut them up real quick if the language is vague like "remove objects in a reasonable timeframe" or whatever.

Douchebag
Oct 21, 2005


FilthyImp posted:

Hope it went in your favor. Did you review the community covenants. You can shut them up real quick if the language is vague like "remove objects in a reasonable timeframe" or whatever.

Yup, all good on my end. Board and property manager were on my side and said it was ridiculous for someone to complain.

Oh, regarding the covenants, I have a call into the board President because they are missing from my documents. They are also missing from the electronic documents available on our community site. It’s supposed to be like page 47, and 47 doesn’t exist. 46 and 48 do!

LloydDobler
Oct 15, 2005

You shared it with a dick.



Yeah that vague violation poo poo is for the birds. When I've gotten violation warnings there was a photograph of exactly what they were warning me of and a reasonable time to rectify the situation before it escalated into an official violation. In 14 years I got maybe 3 of them, all for storing things on my porch instead of my garage.

I live in a townhouse complex so we have to have an HOA. My only complaints are the fact that there are the official covenants, then the "rules" and then the monthly newsletter. These three sources are often contradictory, especially about things like parking and storage and things. Examples:

The covenants say that the only parking assigned to a unit is in the garage. Period. But the rules say that parking in your driveway is acceptable, if you have one. Then the newsletter says that any and all blacktop is fire lane. Many of the units have obvious blacktop driveways with landscaping on either side, others have driveways that are shorter than a car but still clear the fire lane by a reasonable margin, and others obviously block the fire lane. Others are concrete but shorter than a car, etc, etc. Anyway, over the years they have selectively changed whether a unit has acceptable parking in front of the garage, and I was one of them so I got really salty about it. I parked there for 12 years until one day it became a fire lane, with no changes to anything taking place. No explanation other than the board felt they had to "improve safety". Really pissed me off, because the only other parking was 2 blocks away.

Another example is that the covenants say that trash cans must be stored out of view of the street. I have a private porch so I kept my cans there, again for more than 10 years. But they hired a new property management company that did weekly porch inspections and suddenly they violated me. I objected, and they pointed out that the RULES say trash cans must be stored in the garage.

On the flip side, the landscaping is excellent, the buildings look nice and are maintained well on a published schedule, and we get very cheap water, sewer, garbage, etc. And the reserve! Oh man. I didn't know what reserves were when I moved in.

In 2006 HOA dues were $140 a month. It covered community expenses and basic maintenance. Then an accountant ran for the board because he pointed out that we only had $5000 in the reserve account. For a 180 unit complex. So any wind, hail, flood or other damage would come out of special assessments! He won board president and immediately set about a plan of building up our reserve. He has raised dues the maximum amount allowed in the covenants (something like 3 or 5% annual) every single year since he won the seat in 2008. Dues are now $318 a month, everyone constantly bitches every single time, yet our complex still looks fantastic, the houses are still well maintained, and now we have almost 1.2 mil in the bank to cover acts of god and major maintenance. Ironically that's still only $6600 per unit, their goal is to get it up over 2 mil. But people act like it's the end of the world and they haaaaaaaaate the board president because of it. Those of us who see the reality always vote this guy back in to office. If I was planning to live here longer I'd run for the board and work with him.

That said, I just sold my townhouse and I'm moving to a non-HOA neghborhood and I can't loving wait.

remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably




Hell Gem

My HOA announced that they are getting rid of recycling services to save money, but also implementing new parking rules and hiring a towing and booting service! No visitors can park anywhere but the street after 7pm. Yay for arbitrary bullshit.
Also board meetings are now on Mondays at 10am, so most people (including me) can’t attend.
I plan to live here for 4 more years and then move.

Douchebag
Oct 21, 2005


remigious posted:

My HOA announced that they are getting rid of recycling services to save money, but also implementing new parking rules and hiring a towing and booting service! No visitors can park anywhere but the street after 7pm. Yay for arbitrary bullshit.
Also board meetings are now on Mondays at 10am, so most people (including me) can’t attend.
I plan to live here for 4 more years and then move.

My board is exploring getting rid of recycling services too because Waste Management fines us monthly due to residents putting plastic bags in the recycling bins. However, there is no issue with putting recyclables in the regular trash bins. So, we are paying for a service that doesn’t loving matter in the long run and we are getting fined by WM as well.

DangerZoneDelux
Jul 26, 2006



Considering recycling has been mostly fake for awhile now getting rid of it makes sense.

The current uproar is over our trash service. We are outside of the city and it's not part of the HOA fees but they secure a company and we pay that trash services company directly. That's what's supposed to happen but what really happened is apparently half the god drat neighborhood didn't have accounts and hadn't paid for the past 5 years. To remedy that they introduced a sticker system and all hell broke loose. People screaming on nextdoor about their trash not being picked up. And it's been 6 months and still 1/4th of all homes haven't paid the $50 quarterly fee, that's been the price forever which includes recycling and two weekly pick ups.

remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably




Hell Gem

Oh no, I didn’t know that recycling was mostly fake nowadays I’ve also been super vigilant about separating the trash from recycling.

DangerZoneDelux
Jul 26, 2006



It's of course going to depend on area but yeah in the Houston area they caught most of the trucks collecting recycling just going straight to the dump. The official statement was they didn't have facilities anymore to process it

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

DangerZoneDelux posted:

It's of course going to depend on area but yeah in the Houston area they caught most of the trucks collecting recycling just going straight to the dump. The official statement was they didn't have facilities anymore to process it

Nobody's buying it. So there's no money in separating commingled recycling anymore. You can either pay more to have it sorted and stored, with no real timeline on if or when it would be actually recycled, or just landfill it.

It's all very disappointing, but this has been going on since 2018 when China, basically the only buyer, restricted imports of this kind of material.

Commingled recycling basically doesn't work anymore. It makes no economic sense. If we want to recycle it will take a concerted effort of rinsed and uncapped properly sorted plastics, separate metals, and separate paper, separate compostables.

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



remigious posted:

Oh no, I didn’t know that recycling was mostly fake nowadays I’ve also been super vigilant about separating the trash from recycling.

It basically boils down to that cardboard is the most recyclable. But you have rear end hats that toss in a greasy pizza box and ruins it.

Glass...cheaper to manufacture.

Steel...Yeah, I rinse my lids and stuff figuring it would be easy to sort it out of the other stuff.

I view it as a placebo, makes me feel better that I'm trying but I know drat well where it is all going.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



remigious posted:

but also implementing new parking rules and hiring a towing and booting service! No visitors can park anywhere but the street after 7pm. Yay for arbitrary bullshit.
Also board meetings are now on Mondays at 10am, so most people (including me) can’t attend.
Weird. You would think a change like that would require a member vote.
As for the timing issue, look up your state's guidelines on meetings and meeting availability. Workday during Work Hours sounds like bullshit meant to artificially limit attendance and community participation and you may be able to sack the board/managers over it.

Iirc HoA's have done poo poo like "Meet at the Denny's 30 minutes away at 4:45 on a Tuesday" to keep people.out of their hair and, at least in CA, that shot don't fly.

remigious posted:

Oh no, I didn’t know that recycling was mostly fake nowadays I’ve also been super vigilant about separating the trash from recycling.
Same. That's oddly depressing to realize, too.

LloydDobler posted:

I live in a townhouse complex so we have to have an HOA. My only complaints are the fact that there are the official covenants, then the "rules" and then the monthly newsletter. These three sources are often contradictory, especially about things like parking and storage and things.
It sounds like your board is pretty decent so it shouldn't be too hard to get a periodic rewrite of the covenants to be more in line. poo poo like what you described just makes it a mess for people in the community and for the board trying to sort things out in the case of an actual fuckup or citation.

bird with big dick
Oct 21, 2015




luxury handset posted:

HOAs aren't inherently bad

I used to feel the same way.

I thought the petty bullshit about weeds and your garbage can being visible from the street and what color your front door is was worth it because they'd protect the big stuff like stopping my 5 figure view from being destroyed by an rear end in a top hat/inconsiderate neighbor.

Turns out they don't care about the big stuff, only the petty stuff.

DangerZoneDelux
Jul 26, 2006



5 figure view lol. You sound like a lovely person

Shooting Blanks
Jun 6, 2007

Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade





Motronic posted:

Nobody's buying it. So there's no money in separating commingled recycling anymore. You can either pay more to have it sorted and stored, with no real timeline on if or when it would be actually recycled, or just landfill it.

It's all very disappointing, but this has been going on since 2018 when China, basically the only buyer, restricted imports of this kind of material.

Commingled recycling basically doesn't work anymore. It makes no economic sense. If we want to recycle it will take a concerted effort of rinsed and uncapped properly sorted plastics, separate metals, and separate paper, separate compostables.

This China finally realized that the environmental harm from accepting recycling was no longer worth the meager economic benefit of accepting it from other countries. My understanding is that they'll still accept commingled recycling, but only if the contamination rate is <5% or <3% or some other crazy number. If you had entire populations being very vigilant about rinsing cans and bottles, not adding greasy cardboard, etc. it would probably still be economically viable - but people are lazy.

Note that this isn't just a US problem, contamination is enough of a problem in the EU that they also don't know where to send their recycling. And AFAIK, Canada never figured out what to do with those containers full of dirty diapers they sent to the Philippines ostensibly as clear plastic.

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


At least in the EU it's not all that bad, as per EU statistics around half of recyclable waste gets recycled.

e: I realise those statistics largely predate 2018, but even looking at up-to-date government statistics for the UK things aren't all that bleak:

gov.uk posted:

We have made good progress in recent years and continue to take action aimed at increasing our resource efficiency and minimising the impact of our waste. For example:

- the amount of local authority collected waste that is sent to landfill in England has reduced by over 87% since 2000/2001
- plastic bag usage has fallen by 90% in the main supermarkets since the introduction of the carrier bag charge in 2015

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Sep 23, 2020

some_admin
Oct 11, 2011



Grimey Drawer

The biggest issue we’ve had on our HOA is aaaaaaaaallllllllllmmmmmmooooossttt over.

So, so, close. Once the papers are signed I’ll talk about it, but, man am I so f glad this is almost through.

19 unit detached home HOA, v small lots, self managed, I’ve been on the board for 5 years.

In other news I took a training course that our HOA law firm puts on, it was very interesting especially the things we are probably not doing right. Highly recommend!

Rooted Vegetable
Jun 1, 2002



Could you link to the course at least?

some_admin
Oct 11, 2011



Grimey Drawer

https://www.ochhoalaw.com/education/

bird with big dick
Oct 21, 2015




DangerZoneDelux posted:

5 figure view lol. You sound like a lovely person

Some people have views and they can have value sorry if you weren't aware of this

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tangy yet delightful
Sep 13, 2005





Hoping to piggy back on this thread to see if anyone has experience dealing with getting a car gate installed, or having one in your HOA neighborhood? Also similarly any of the camera systems that do the automatic license plate reading poo poo.

Our small (20ish homes) HOA is starting to talk about doing one or both of these things and I think they suck a bunch of rear end and I'm hoping to gather reasons why they suck and aren't useful for their stated purpose and how much the price tag actually will be for install/upkeep/legal liability costs?

Basically looking for help to get people to vote no on this poo poo so any ideas, links, anecdotes welcome

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