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I know it isn't the point of the tweet but a fair chunk of PKD would hold up even by modern standards helps that he hated every human being so he wasn't as enormously misogynist as most
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May 9, 2021 20:05
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That tweet is a loaded question. Mostly because James Davis Nicoll is one of the long time personalities in the SFL Archives, and has been discussing 1960s & 1970s SFF texts in the SFL Archives since the late 1980's. Ammonite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonite_(novel) is a 1990s book that has been getting talked about lately in the 1995 SFL Archives.
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May 9, 2021 20:30
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DACK FAYDEN posted:I know it isn't the point of the tweet but a fair chunk of PKD would hold up even by modern standards As would everything by Ursula Le Guin. Hell, it seems to me that books like Left Hand (1969) or Dispossessed (1974) are even more relevant today.
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May 9, 2021 20:53
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BurningBeard posted:I wish I could find the interview with him when he was still hiding his identity where he just went into absolutely excruciating detail about arms, armor, and sieges. Sometimes somebody’s fascinations can be infectious that way. Anybody know what interview I’m thinking of? If that sort of thing is your jam, check out Dr Sarah Taber on Twitter. She’s an agronomist who does deep dives into weird agricultural poo poo and is just fascinating. I read a 30-tweet breakdown on manure by her the other day. Found her because a fantasy author I read linked to her bitching about how writers treat horses like cars in fantasy, it was hilarious.
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May 9, 2021 20:58
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rmdx posted:As would everything by Ursula Le Guin. I just read the Dispossessed for the first time last year and can confirm it holds up better than well.
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May 9, 2021 21:38
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tokenbrownguy posted:I just read the Dispossessed for the first time last year and can confirm it holds up better than well. Emptyquote. It's good poo poo.
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May 9, 2021 21:42
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And left hand is a timeless classic
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May 10, 2021 01:59
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I’ve felt John Brunner’s major works have held up surprisingly well, especially given that they are near future dystopic visions.
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May 10, 2021 05:03
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navyjack posted:If that sort of thing is your jam, check out Dr Sarah Taber on Twitter. She’s an agronomist who does deep dives into weird agricultural poo poo and is just fascinating. I read a 30-tweet breakdown on manure by her the other day. Found her because a fantasy author I read linked to her bitching about how writers treat horses like cars in fantasy, it was hilarious. Bret Devereaux is also good for stuff like this! Here's a link to one of my favorites: https://acoup.blog/2020/07/24/collections-bread-how-did-they-make-it-part-i-farmers/
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May 10, 2021 06:26
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pradmer posted:Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell - $2.99 This was my favourite book in my early twenties and while I've cooled a bit on David Mitchell's writing style (not sure if he's developed a tendency to write Sorkinesque straw men for his characters to slap down or if he always has and I've only just started noticing it) this book still absolutely rocks and is just good fun. I can't remember the site now but there was some place doing brackets for the Best Work of Literature Ever, and the writers there were talking about how Cloud Atlas reminds you of what literature is for, of why we all start reading in the first place: it is good literature, but also just fun, it's entertaining. Anyway if you've somehow never got around to reading Cloud Atlas in 2021, it's definitely worth three bucks. This is a self-aware joke right?
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May 10, 2021 09:56
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freebooter posted:This is a self-aware joke right? It's James Nicoll. He probably knows more about nerd-genre literature than anyone in this thread.
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May 10, 2021 10:08
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It's absolutely a combination of joke and not-actually-joking suggestion that people who do that should try reading, and recommending, another book. ...ooh, there's a sequel to the YA novel sequel to Cat Pictures, Please. "Chaos [on CatNet] is an entertaining sequel, one that stands on its own. Readers will no doubt enjoy it as much as they did the first. Unless they did not read the first, in which case they should." Thanks, James Davis Nicoll. I really should check your review site more often.
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May 10, 2021 10:16
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The next Revelation Space book, Inhibitor Phase, has been delayed to October 12, 2021. Really disappointed.
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May 10, 2021 13:48
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Lunsku posted:I’ve felt John Brunner’s major works have held up surprisingly well, especially given that they are near future dystopic visions. I am reading Stand on Zanzibar right now, and it feels crazy that it was published in 1968. At one point he was describing deep fakes in the novel as a concept for people to feel like they experienced something and that felt very close to reality.
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May 10, 2021 14:06
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Yoked posted:I am reading Stand on Zanzibar right now, and it feels crazy that it was published in 1968. At one point he was describing deep fakes in the novel as a concept for people to feel like they experienced something and that felt very close to reality. Specifically, the high-end TVs have access to programming featuring a family exactly like yours. From day-to-day life, to exotic vacations, everyone on-screen is
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May 10, 2021 14:16
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navyjack posted:If that sort of thing is your jam, check out Dr Sarah Taber on Twitter. She’s an agronomist who does deep dives into weird agricultural poo poo and is just fascinating. I read a 30-tweet breakdown on manure by her the other day. Found her because a fantasy author I read linked to her bitching about how writers treat horses like cars in fantasy, it was hilarious. DWJ's The Tough Guide to Fantasyland posits that what fantasy literature calls "horses" are, in fact, a form of motile plant: quote:HORSES are of a breed unique to Fantasyland. They are capable of galloping full-tilt all day without a rest. Sometimes they do not require food or water. They never cast shoes, go lame, or put their hooves down holes, except when Management deems it necessary, as when the forces of the DARK LORD are only half an hour behind. They never otherwise stumble. Nor do they ever make life difficult for Tourists by biting or kicking their riders or one another. They never resist being mounted or blow out so that their girths slip, or do any of the other things that make horses so chancy in this world. For instance, they never shy and seldom whinny or demand sugar at inopportune moments. But for some reason you cannot hold a conversation while riding them. If you want to say anything to another Tourist (or vice versa), both of you will have to rein to a stop and stand staring out over a VALLEY while you talk. Apart from this inexplicable quirk, Horses can be used just like bicycles, and usually are. Much research into how these exemplary animals come to exist has resulted in the following: no mare ever comes into season on the Tour and no STALLION ever shows an interest in a mare; and few Horses are described as geldings. It therefore seems probable that they breed by pollination. This theory seems to account for everything, since it is clear that the creatures do behave more like vegetables than mammals. It also explains why the ANGLO-SAXON COSSACKS and the DESERT NOMADS appear to have a monopoly on horse-breeding. They alone possess the secret of how to pollinate them.
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May 10, 2021 14:23
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ToxicFrog posted:DWJ's The Tough Guide to Fantasyland posits that what fantasy literature calls "horses" are, in fact, a form of motile plant: She was so snarky.
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May 10, 2021 15:29
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freebooter posted:This is a self-aware joke right? https://twitter.com/QuiteVague/status/1391309739561295875
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May 10, 2021 15:38
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Blindsight by Brian Herbert & Kevin J Anderson.
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May 10, 2021 15:51
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Yoked posted:I am reading Stand on Zanzibar right now, and it feels crazy that it was published in 1968. At one point he was describing deep fakes in the novel as a concept for people to feel like they experienced something and that felt very close to reality. I'm still amazed that SoZ predicted the U.S. would be run by a President Obomi in 2010. Only a couple of vowels off. freebooter posted:This is a self-aware joke right? There is a certain cadre of SF fans who believe the best jumping-on point for new SF readers is still the old classics -- Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, etc. Nicoll actually went out and tested that with his "Young People Read Old SFF" project (shocking spoiler: stories written 70 years ago aren't likely to engage young readers' attention!).
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May 10, 2021 16:47
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FPyat posted:The next Revelation Space book, Inhibitor Phase, has been delayed to October 12, 2021. Really disappointed. Wait. It's been years since I read it, but wasn't the last one, y'know supposed to be the last one? I very vaguely recall an x years later epilogue and everything. Deptfordx fucked around with this message at 17:02 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 17:00
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Deptfordx posted:Wait. It's been years since I read it, but wasn't the last one, y'know supposed to be the last one? I mean the last one ended with an equally hosed up enemy, the greenfly, taking over the entire universe by accident which helped defeat the inhibitors so there's probably some leeway there to fill in the blanks.
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May 10, 2021 17:02
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Selachian posted:There is a certain cadre of SF fans who believe the best jumping-on point for new SF readers is still the old classics -- Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, etc. Nicoll actually went out and tested that with his "Young People Read Old SFF" project (shocking spoiler: stories written 70 years ago aren't likely to engage young readers' attention!). I remember reading some of the early posts from that. I hate to be the one to say, "no, it's the children who are wrong," but I can't help but feel that the children were wrong a lot of the time there. Lots of the depiction = endorsement fallacy. Maybe the more recent reviews are better.
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May 10, 2021 19:11
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Silver2195 posted:I remember reading some of the early posts from that. I hate to be the one to say, "no, it's the children who are wrong," but I can't help but feel that the children were wrong a lot of the time there. Lots of the depiction = endorsement fallacy. Maybe the more recent reviews are better. i don't think it's unreasonable for kids to have a point of view that stuff from the 60s/70s is likely to be earnestly sexist or racist. they've been told "it was a different time" about a million things at this point
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May 10, 2021 19:19
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ToxicFrog posted:DWJ's The Tough Guide to Fantasyland posits that what fantasy literature calls "horses" are, in fact, a form of motile plant: Yeah, this always bugged me a little. A character will be stranded with their horse, but for some reason the character would rather starve than eat whatever the horse is eating that makes it somehow survive the journey. I really like how in Between Two Fires, it mentions that the characters are willing to just eat weeds and grass in an effort to stay alive between more substantial meals. One of the other things that always bugged me is when industry and labor tend to be absent from a world. I love Brandon Sanderson, but it seems like he'll spend ten chapters on his magic system but surprises himself when it comes to things like basic economy and just decides that houses are built with magic. I think the same goes for a lot of Fantasy writers that never really held a labor job irl or have never read any kind of deep-dive history/culture books. In lots of fantasy, all blacksmiths are specially trained to make single Great Blades, even in wartime. You rarely see these blacksmiths worked half to death from making horseshoes, tools, studs, nails, basic equipment, etc. For whatever it does well or poorly (I'm new and I'm kind of trying to tune into SA's frequency on GRRM's works), Ice and Fire is the only fantasy work I've ever really read (so far) that has addressed really well what the life for the average Joe Lunchpail is like and how it relates back the world and the main characters. Really want to read The Tough Guide to Fantasy Land, now.
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May 10, 2021 19:38
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Yeah, this always bugged me a little. A character will be stranded with their horse, but for some reason the character would rather starve than eat whatever the horse is eating that makes it somehow survive the journey. I really like how in Between Two Fires, it mentions that the characters are willing to just eat weeds and grass in an effort to stay alive between more substantial meals. I'm reading the Fencer trilogy currently and boy howdy do I have a series for you... The city Parker has sketched out so far in just the first book is so convincing, so lively with activity and industry and the mechanics of how it all fits together, it's not surprising that everything he's written since has rested on these same sorts of societies. He knows it absolutely back to front. In The Two of Swords there's also a number of times a horse is lamed or wanders off or a coach loses a wheel, etc. putting the protagonists at great personal difficulty to try to figure out how the hell they're going to get out of their predicament. He also just portrays horse riding in a really convincing way, with how even a few months of not riding can make doing it well really awkard and uncomfortable. It's the opposite of treating them like bikes. Ccs fucked around with this message at 19:44 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 19:41
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Yeah, this always bugged me a little. A character will be stranded with their horse, but for some reason the character would rather starve than eat whatever the horse is eating that makes it somehow survive the journey. I really like how in Between Two Fires, it mentions that the characters are willing to just eat weeds and grass in an effort to stay alive between more substantial meals. Between Two Fires is just so well grounded in the world in a way that very few fantasy novels are.
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May 10, 2021 20:01
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90s Cringe Rock posted:...ooh, there's a sequel to the YA novel sequel to Cat Pictures, Please. "Chaos [on CatNet] is an entertaining sequel, one that stands on its own. Readers will no doubt enjoy it as much as they did the first. Unless they did not read the first, in which case they should." Thanks, James Davis Nicoll. I really should check your review site more often. Thanks for pointing that out. I liked Catfishing on CatNet a lot.
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May 10, 2021 20:18
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Yeah, this always bugged me a little. A character will be stranded with their horse, but for some reason the character would rather starve than eat whatever the horse is eating that makes it somehow survive the journey. I really like how in Between Two Fires, it mentions that the characters are willing to just eat weeds and grass in an effort to stay alive between more substantial meals. You want CJ Cherryh. Her Fortress in the eye of time series covers stuff like this, and her worlds always feel lived in. Janny Wurts is another, and Bujold too, IIRC.
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May 10, 2021 20:30
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The problem with Clarke, Asimov and Heinlein is - their stuff is poorly written. Well, all of Asimov, Heinlein, and most of Clarke, something we’ve discussed on TBB Discord earlier today. What is left are ideas - the first time someone thought to write about a geostationary satellite or an orbital elevator and so on. Since these ideas are commonplace today, I understand that kids are refuting these works. There is nothing of value to be gained from them, unless you have an interest in history of the genre. The occasional racism and ever present sexism are a whole other can of worms.
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May 10, 2021 20:35
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I am curious what will stand the test of time from the later era, say 1990+. I think the Culture series will be worth recommending to kids in 50 years. I really doubt The Expanse will be though
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May 10, 2021 20:43
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:The problem with Clarke, Asimov and Heinlein is - their stuff is poorly written. Well, all of Asimov, Heinlein, and most of Clarke, something we’ve discussed on TBB Discord earlier today. What is left are ideas - the first time someone thought to write about a geostationary satellite or an orbital elevator and so on. Since these ideas are commonplace today, I understand that kids are refuting these works. There is nothing of value to be gained from them, unless you have an interest in history of the genre. The early posts on the blog were mostly New Wave-y stuff, not Asimov or Heinlein. The first three entries from 2017 were works by Roger Zelazny, Ursula LeGuin, and Joanna Russ, for example. Which I guess means that Nicholl was ignoring Adam-Troy Castro's actual point to some extent.
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May 10, 2021 20:47
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Lunsku posted:I’ve felt John Brunner’s major works have held up surprisingly well, especially given that they are near future dystopic visions. I've never read the final chapter of my copy of Stand on Zanzibar because it was eaten by rats. You can see the teethmarks in the pages, dozens of tiny rat-mouth-sized hemispheres of missing page. This felt so thematically appropriate to the book that I simply let it stand in for the chaos of civilizational failure cascade. In my mind, in this way, every character in the book ends with rats gnawing on their bones and the world is their grave. In this essay I shall
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May 10, 2021 20:49
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Yeah I'm neither young nor in any way new to sci-fi and only just read Asimov and Clarke for the first time in the past year and a half, and I also found they couldn't hold my attention. I'd agree that the writing quality is.. if not outright poor, it's very bland and workmanlike. I think if you're reading their books for the first time in 2021 there's a good chance they'll be, at best, very quaint and dated (Rama, Childhood's End), at worst racist/sexist/creepy as hell/full of tiresome Big Idea Men refuting comically cardboard-thin strawmen characters (Foundation, most of Heinlein). I get why people still recommend the classics from these people, because they really established the genre, but I honestly think they're some of the worst options you could offer a young person who's interested in the genre, given the incredible breadth and depth of writing that's out there now.
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May 10, 2021 20:52
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MockingQuantum posted:Yeah I'm neither young nor in any way new to sci-fi and only just read Asimov and Clarke for the first time in the past year and a half, and I also found they couldn't hold my attention. I'd agree that the writing quality is.. if not outright poor, it's very bland and workmanlike. I think if you're reading their books for the first time in 2021 there's a good chance they'll be, at best, very quaint and dated (Rama, Childhood's End), at worst racist/sexist/creepy as hell/full of tiresome Big Idea Men refuting comically cardboard-thin strawmen characters (Foundation, most of Heinlein). I get why people still recommend the classics from these people, because they really established the genre, but I honestly think they're some of the worst options you could offer a young person who's interested in the genre, given the incredible breadth and depth of writing that's out there now. I, a Millennial, read the Foundation trilogy as a teenager and liked them, for whatever that's worth.
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May 10, 2021 20:55
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I remember enjoying Childhood's End when I read it, probably more than 10 years ago at this point. That was also when I was reading a lot of Vonnegut. I think his stuff still stands the test of time. I read Zelazny's Lord of Light a lot more recently and really enjoyed it. Jack Vance is always fun. His characters are horrible people, but that's just who they are. The author is definitely not endorsing anything Cugel the Clever is doing. I still come across a lot of Cugel-esque characters in modern fantasy.
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May 10, 2021 21:02
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Hell, I still like Edgar Rice Burroughs.
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May 10, 2021 21:05
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Yeah, this always bugged me a little. A character will be stranded with their horse, but for some reason the character would rather starve than eat whatever the horse is eating that makes it somehow survive the journey. I really like how in Between Two Fires, it mentions that the characters are willing to just eat weeds and grass in an effort to stay alive between more substantial meals. Robin Hobb is probably a little romantic and cozy in her portrayal of medieval life and culture but she's also generally pretty good about depicting the more mundane aspects of a society too
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May 10, 2021 21:05
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Silver2195 posted:I, a Millennial, read the Foundation trilogy as a teenager and liked them, for whatever that's worth. It's possible I would have liked them more if I had read them as a teenager, honestly. I think if I had less reading experience in the genre to compare them to, I'd have looked at them a little more favorably. But honestly reading Foundation felt a bit like reading tweets or thinkpieces from the sort of techbro who insists loudly that Elon Musk and bitcoin will save the world. I know that's not a fair comparison to make but it's just a feeling I had at times, like they read as being sort of unrealistically pro-Rational Genius Hero and are overly idealistic in a way that feels more naive than anything. I agree a lot with what Take the Plunge said, that once you strip away the bad writing all you're left with are pretty outdated (and oddly backwards, in 2021) ideas.
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May 10, 2021 21:08
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Ccs posted:I remember enjoying Childhood's End when I read it, probably more than 10 years ago at this point. That was also when I was reading a lot of Vonnegut. I think his stuff still stands the test of time. Childhood's End was the one that bothered me the least, out of it, Rama, and the Foundation books. It felt silly as hell at times, but in a way that was entertaining. It just felt pretty dated and quaint in a way that didn't really inhibit my enjoyment of it, but would probably stop me from recommending it to someone who wasn't actively looking for a sort of "period piece" of 60s sci-fi. I would absolutely, and do, recommend Zelazny, Le Guin, PKD, and Vance to people today, along with a whole host of other sci-fi/fantasy writers from the same time. I definitely have no gripes against sci-fi from that era, I just think that Clarke, Asimov, and Heinlein all have reputations that badly outpace the actual quality of their books, when viewed through a modern lens. Heinlein especially, I really don't think anybody should be recommending Heinlein today, even with some giant loving caveats. And as much as I personally love a lot of his body of work, I actually think a lot of Bradbury's books are pretty dated/overrated in the same way.
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May 10, 2021 21:12
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