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evilmiera
Dec 14, 2009

Status:Perpetually fearful

ruddiger posted:

Joker spoilers in regards to the first ep of Batwoman.

I don’t know Kane’s backstory from the comics buts it’s interesting they made her first episode nemesis her sister considering the implications that Batman and Joker are half brothers in the new joker film. Also, did I read that right or was Joker also responsible for Kane’s mom’s death as well?

In regards to the spoiler, it might be implied but its rather quickly discarded.

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Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.


Xelkelvos posted:

This is the pilot which is why it's a bit rushed. Everyone who's relevant for at least a good chunk of the season has to be included and characterized in some manner. All of the high points are getting set up and the details are intended to be filled in for when it's greenlit (which it has). Count on Fox being a whiny nerd in the next episode or two and all of the stuff from the Pilot more fully fleshed out.

I'm remembering how poorly received Supergirl's pilot was around here so I expect this show to go on for 10 seasons and become a runaway hit.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Google Image Results for
"Sexy Guy Gardner"


Chokes McGee posted:

I'm remembering how poorly received Supergirl's pilot was around here so I expect this show to go on for 10 seasons and become a runaway hit.

Supergirl didn't get good until the Flash crossover episode.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007


twistedmentat posted:

I think its funny that Kate isn't allowed to join the Crows unless she trains, but I doubt all the other agents went though crazy training.
Didn't her dad say that they were all ex-special forces?

Ubik_Lives posted:

I feel like this episode should have been a double episode. There was an information overload with all the family characters and the backstory being dumped on the audience while a normal plot and and origin was going on as well. As it was I feel like they skipped over important moments, like Kate convincing Fox to help her and make the suit, and her giving the gadgets and suit a test run, in favour of things like her step sister’s medical practice. I get that the latter is probably going to be important, but it could have been done an episode or two later, and would have given more emotional weight to Kate having misjudged her step-sister’s character. Nothing really got time to breathe.
This was exactly what I want from the first episode of a super hero show. Get the setup out of the way so we can get straight into the action next week. Dragging out the origin story is just tiresome. Hopefully by the end of the next episode her sister will be on the team and she'll have her cover identity worked out, and there will have been a definitive moment of public recognition so that everyone knows it's Batwoman (not Batman returned) and that she can get the job done.

itry
Aug 23, 2019






Tiggum posted:

Didn't her dad say that they were all ex-special forces?

Yeah, all ex-Delta's and w/e. Kate in comparison got kicked out of the academy.

I'd quote him verbatim but . It's when he says the psychos who took Sophie don't stand a chance.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



Rhyno posted:

Supergirl didn't get good until the Flash crossover episode.

It's true, I don't think any CW show had a strong start (although I do really enjoy Black Lightning's opening episode for the most part).

SardonicTyrant
Feb 26, 2016

BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&





I'd say Arrow and Flash had the strongest pilots to me, but then they blew it in subsequent seasons. Meanwhile Legends had s1 and then got massively better.

I've been mostly cool about Supergirl so I can't really judge what was good and bad.

Rocksicles
Oct 19, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


itry posted:

Yeah, all ex-Delta's and w/e. Kate in comparison got kicked out of the academy.

I'd quote him verbatim but . It's when he says the psychos who took Sophie don't stand a chance.

I thought according to popular culture Delta operators were non coms.

Ubik_Lives
Nov 16, 2012


Tiggum posted:

This was exactly what I want from the first episode of a super hero show. Get the setup out of the way so we can get straight into the action next week. Dragging out the origin story is just tiresome. Hopefully by the end of the next episode her sister will be on the team and she'll have her cover identity worked out, and there will have been a definitive moment of public recognition so that everyone knows it's Batwoman (not Batman returned) and that she can get the job done.

I can understand that, but I still feel like there was too much in there for a single episode. I feel like they could have spent more time on character internal motivations, and not just inter-character dynamics.

They have the jump between Kate finding the suit, and then wearing her own one the next scene. Fox has been trying hide everything from you, but he just instantly makes you a new suit? Why do you want the suit, specifically a bat suit and not just body armour? The bat symbol is something you’ve resented most of your life, and have only started to reassess seconds ago. If it’s about instilling fear, why silently take everyone down? She’s been training to become an elite killer, so why didn’t she take a gun up to the fight? I feel like there needed to be a few more lines of dialog to flesh it out.

There’s the moment which seems like it should be a touching moment with her dad where he explains why he’s being overprotective of Kate (and I wonder if he started the Crows in response to the bridge incident), but this is occurring in the same episode where this conflict originated, and Kate is distracted from the resolution by another plot line. Her perception of her step-sister drastically changes in the episode as well, going from being social media obsessed, which I’m guessing is because her mother is the Mayor’s head of PR or something, to running an underground clinic for the poor. But to what end?

Most of the other CW shows have heroes that started with clear and straightforward motivations as to why they are the hero they are, which made it easier for a quick start. Cleaning up the city? Got it. Alien with superpowers who wants to help? Got it. But I struggled to latch onto Kate’s motivations, because she becomes a fully formed Batwoman before she decides to take up the mantle. It feels like the episode is backwards-justifying why it did what it did.

I don’t think it’s a terrible episode or anything, but it just feels rushed.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006

Shepard.


College Slice

Ubik_Lives posted:

I don’t think it’s a terrible episode or anything, but it just feels rushed.

I kind of do feel like it’s a terrible episode. Everything and everyone just felt so flat and unengaging. None of the actors seem to have the natural charm we’ve seen in the other Arrowverse shows, and Ruby Rose in particular sounds like she’s reading the ingredients off the back of a cereal box. The bat costume looks terrible, giving anyone who wears it a big, fat head. I know they’re gonna cover that up with the ridiculous red wig later, but seriously, they’ve been making fine looking bat cowls for over half a century, there’s no excuse.

And seriously? A Native American character who speaks in broken, monosyllabic English? In 2019?

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


Yeah, that last one also raised an eyebrow to me.

The cowl forehead is still big, even with the wig. At least from the backdoor pilot. Idk why.

The stiffness I can forgive a little since it's the pilot, so I'd give it an episode or two to see if it changes or not

GigaPeon
Apr 29, 2003

Go, man, go!

nine-gear crow posted:

I’m really enjoying how heavy they’re leaning into how Chicago Gotham is. Anything that tracks back to the Dark Knight is fantastic.

gently caress man. In Elseworlds Wayne tower was 230 N. Michigan Ave. and NOW it's the Board of Trade? It's like they think we're morons or something.

To be fair though, the CBOT is the most Batman:TAS building in the world.



It's even got a blimp by it!

Also was the Crowe HQ supposed to be Trump Tower or was that just a bad establishing shot?

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

red bird

GigaPeon posted:

gently caress man. In Elseworlds Wayne tower was 230 N. Michigan Ave. and NOW it's the Board of Trade? It's like they think we're morons or something.

To be fair though, the CBOT is the most Batman:TAS building in the world.



It's even got a blimp by it!

Also was the Crowe HQ supposed to be Trump Tower or was that just a bad establishing shot?

Trump Chicago is in a couple of establishing shots (taken after the name was ripped off the side of it ), but no, Crows HQ kinda looked like it was the Nuveen building.

Elentor
Dec 14, 2004








There's something very Tim Burtonesque about the editing, costume design and gestures that the character is making. Ruby is looking like Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman while acting stiff like Burton's Batman who couldn't move freely with the awkward costume.

The scene where they fall on the bed and Batwoman awkwardly leaves, then suddenly raises the grappling hook is so Batman 1.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

red bird

Umm... did they just casually confirm that Wonder Woman exists in the Arrowverse?

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters


Yes they did.

I love the Batman 66 vibe to the technology in the Batcave.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

red bird

Well I guess people who were saying the show was too rushed can calm down now, because they sure let things marinate this episode.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters


This really felt like the second half of last week's episode.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?

nine-gear crow posted:

Umm... did they just casually confirm that Wonder Woman exists in the Arrowverse?

Legends take Helen of Troy to Paradise Island and she comes back as a Amazon Warrior.

And holy poo poo, what the gently caress lazy hack stupid writing. God I hate Alice in Wonderland stuff. Bad writers can only think of one thing for weirdness. Why Mad Hatter is literally the worst Batman Villain and was awful in every way in Got Ham.

Is that the other half sister that was getting rid of the knife?

twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Oct 14, 2019

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Clapping Larry

The Step-Mom.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


twistedmentat posted:

Is that the other half sister that was getting rid of the knife?

Stepsister (parents married but no blood relation), not half-sister (share a parent).

It was the stepmother at the end ditching the knife.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?

Bruceski posted:

Stepsister (parents married but no blood relation), not half-sister (share a parent).

It was the stepmother at the end ditching the knife.

Ah, on both.

Also in shape bearded white guys all look the same, I though Alice's boyfriend was also one of the Crows.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


twistedmentat posted:

Also in shape bearded white guys all look the same, I though Alice's boyfriend was also one of the Crows.

I mean, he was until he betrayed them last episode. There was someone on the crew this week that gave me a double-take too.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

red bird

twistedmentat posted:

Ah, on both.

Also in shape bearded white guys all look the same, I though Alice's boyfriend was also one of the Crows.

He is/was. He was the dude from the pilot who betrayed them, now Kate has him in No Lunch Hallway Prison.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


This reminds me a bit of S1 of Arrow where the MC basically has to borrow resources or stuff from other people to do some of their heroic legwork because they don't have it on their own.

I feel really bad for Mary. She's trying to be a good sister and a good person, but her step-sister just keeps ignoring her. She's gonna end up as the Batwoman team's medic by the end of the season. Sophie can get hosed though and I hope Renee Montoya shows up eventually as a new love interest (because there always is).

ded
Oct 27, 2005

Kooler than Jesus

Is it wrong that I read the threadtitle as barrowman is a lady?

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

red bird

Xelkelvos posted:

This reminds me a bit of S1 of Arrow where the MC basically has to borrow resources or stuff from other people to do some of their heroic legwork because they don't have it on their own.

I feel really bad for Mary. She's trying to be a good sister and a good person, but her step-sister just keeps ignoring her. She's gonna end up as the Batwoman team's medic by the end of the season. Sophie can get hosed though and I hope Renee Montoya shows up eventually as a new love interest (because there always is).

I’m in the same boat w/r/t Sophie. Just “wow, you are a lovely person and I really hope you don’t ruin your marriage over this misfire of a relationship with Kate.” I can tell she’s just going to be a process complication. Then again the last character I disliked this intensely upon their introduction was, uh, Iris. And holy poo poo did she prove me wrong, so who knows, in two years time she could be the best character on the show.

We’ll just have to see where it goes.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


nine-gear crow posted:

I’m in the same boat w/r/t Sophie. Just “wow, you are a lovely person and I really hope you don’t ruin your marriage over this misfire of a relationship with Kate.” I can tell she’s just going to be a process complication. Then again the last character I disliked this intensely upon their introduction was, uh, Iris. And holy poo poo did she prove me wrong, so who knows, in two years time she could be the best character on the show.

We’ll just have to see where it goes.

I don't think Iris was actively undermining or betraying Barry's trust though like Sophie's done. At least not this much in a single episode.

Ubik_Lives
Nov 16, 2012


I felt that was a much better paced episode. The fight in the garage was a little choppy, but I guess that's probably the point since Kate was disorientated. The underwater explosion was a nice shot, though lol that the cops just start blasting away at the barest hint of a person, when they must have had at least one of their guys down there who was driving the van.

I don't even mind Sophie to be honest. Alice has murdered two innocent people to get at her boss, and there's every chance that Kate could be next. Kate didn't bring her onto team Batwoman, so she doesn't have to blindly follow Kate's lead. And especially so given the whole flashback plot is about Kate feeling guilty that she didn't do enough to save her sister, and ooooh why won't you let me recklessly endanger myself and potentially get myself killed on an unproven hunch how dare you do everything in your power to protect meeeeeee.

But yeah, I hope they drop the relationship angle. Justified or not, that bridge is burnt, so just move on.

Elentor
Dec 14, 2004








I feel like this could have all the setpieces to be a decent show but the CW coat is so thick and it's already showing and leaking.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



Kate is still not terribly engaging as a character.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


Dawgstar posted:

Kate is still not terribly engaging as a character.

I binged Arrow season 1 so I don't know if he garnered that level of interest and engagement that Kate has or if he was more interesting from the get go.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


The first few episodes of arrow were kinda weird because he didn't have a team and so we had a lot of Dexter style internal monologue going on. The show worked a lot better once Oliver got a few people on board and he had other characters to interact with. That being said, I also think the Arrow supporting cast was more compelling.

Here, Kate still doesn't have a proper team- I don't think fox counts yet - so we still have all that internal monologue that gets kinda old. the cast is smaller as well and the non antagonistic characters are still kinda bland blank slates. Also it's early days yet but the action scenes are kinda poor. I don't get the impression she's a badass like I did with Oliver even from the get go, and we haven't seen a proper good extended, well choreographed fight scene yet.

evenworse username
Aug 4, 2006

TRICHER
POUR
GAGNER


We also got scenes of Oliver being genuinely warm and personable with his family and Tommy to round out the character some.

So far Kate is pretty one tone. She should be a badass, but it would be nice to see another dimension to her.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Google Image Results for
"Sexy Guy Gardner"


That was a better episode but Ruby Rose is such a bad actress.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



evenworse username posted:

We also got scenes of Oliver being genuinely warm and personable with his family and Tommy to round out the character some.

Yeah. Thus far we have Kate being disdainful of her step-sister who seems perfectly nice and is all "I would have stopped you" to her ex getting married and it's supposed to be... yay?

Also what Rhyno said.

SardonicTyrant
Feb 26, 2016

BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&





I don't mind Ruby Rose, I just feel like there's just not much going on compared to Arrow s1 at this point.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


At least in the original comics, Kate did the Bruce Wayne thing where she was also a socialite lady-killer/dilettante heiress but part of that was tied into the Kane side of her family being old money wealthy like the Kanes and her dad simply also being a military guy and played the Alfred to her Batwoman. So you got to see a lot more facets to her as opposed to this show where she's sorta always "on" like she'd act the way you'd think she'd act under the cowl anyways or she's horny and that's sorta it.

WSAENOTSOCK
Apr 13, 2002


Well, I loves me some Ruby Rose, so I'm here for my first ever Berlantiverse show.

Why is the batcave under Wayne tech and not Wayne manor? This shouldn't bother me, but it bothers me.

I've quite liked it so far, that stupid pebble in my shoe aside.

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nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

red bird

LividLiquid posted:

Well, I loves me some Ruby Rose, so I'm here for my first ever Berlantiverse show.

Why is the batcave under Wayne tech and not Wayne manor? This shouldn't bother me, but it bothers me.

I've quite liked it so far, that stupid pebble in my shoe aside.

It’s been BatLore for a while now that Bruce built multiple Bat Caves in key places around Gotham so that he’d have access to his suit and tech at a moment’s notice no matter where he was in town. The main cave is probably still there under Wayne Manor, the one under Wayne Enterprises is just the one that Kate happened to find.

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