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zer0spunk
Nov 6, 2000

devil never even lived


Wolfsheim posted:

You can both think it's good that they shined a light on the Tulsa massacre and think the show's "most cops are good brave people its just a few bad apples" moral stance is extremely tone deaf at best

i'm down for another show with regina king and tim blake nelson where they explore the idea of police needing to mask their identities in a world hostile to the idea of law enforcement and why that might be

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Sleeveless
Dec 25, 2014
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Wolfsheim posted:

the show's "most cops are good brave people its just a few bad apples" moral stance

Unless you're one of those people who places more value on a single out of context quote from a podcast appearance by one of the show's writers over the actual text of the show I have a really hard time picturing how this could be your takeaway of the show's attitude towards cops.

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

lotta posts. Season 2 green lit?

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


god i hope not

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

That's fair... I wasn't exactly champing at the bit for more after the finale fumble.

But at the same time I would love to see them reprise their roles and, most importantly, have a more... "2020" attitude toward the police.

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


i don't want them to do it for different reasons. I think it ended great, I just think it has more power as being one and done. Don't force another season just yet, maybe revisit in a couple years

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



I really feel like that is not present in this show and the cops are actively portrayed as antagonists multiple times, including the middle and end, and are only really painted in a good light in the first 1-2 episodes before the main character herself is no longer an asset to them.

The show runner also said he doesn’t want to do a 2nd season so hopefully he just does something else.

SardonicTyrant
Feb 26, 2016

BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&





I want a season 2 where they explore what happened to that masochist guy Rorshach kicked downed an elevator.

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


The head cop is in the kkk. Angela is an imperialist who wants to hear death and has been since a young age. And glass guy is bad at what he says he's good at, reading people, as evidenced by him getting duped into a date by a kkk member.

the cops are bad at their jobs in this show lol

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006




I think the cops in the series are pretty clearly presented as fascists.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on




Pillbug

Antifa Turkeesian posted:

I think the cops in the series are pretty clearly presented as fascists.

There’s a goddamn black site in the third episode, they absolutely are.

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


some people, not being wise enough to notice these subtle hints, instead think the show is actually bad. This includes missing the subtext in the last two episodes.

If I didn't see it, then it must not exist or be true ¯\_༼ •́ ͜ʖ •̀ ༽_/¯

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



“This show, which portrays cops as ignorant racists, depicting them going to war with their own black co-worker as she begins to unravel how their chief was a white supremacist and the cops murdered a bunch of other cops to make Tulsa look more racist, is actually pro-cop!”

It’s weird that this criticism keeps coming from the same crowd of people who feel like the critics didn’t watch the whole show, because I think the only way you could think this show was pro-cop is if you watched only the first episode.

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


Ugly In The Morning posted:

There’s a goddamn black site in the third episode, they absolutely are.

seeing a black site but liking the main character enough to change your mind and go 'oh, this must be one of the good black sites'

Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

*hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.




...the meter only goes to 3.6...



Pork Pro

This show is pro-cop the way Fortunate Son is pro-America?

duck trucker
Oct 14, 2017

YOSPOS



This show explicitly shows killing kkk members as a good thing so it deserves an emmy for that.

Sleeveless
Dec 25, 2014
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Yet another way Watchmen was a harbinger of what was to come in 2020, it was one of the early casualties of the phenomena of people being told something incorrect about a piece of media before anyone has had a chance to watch it and then refusing to let go of that narrative even after the thing finally comes out and they can see for themselves that it's not true.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


I dunno. My overwhelming memory of the show is that they made the cop characters, particularly Angela, very cool. Yeah, they do bad things, but they're kinda awesome at it.

She's badass. So's Laurie. Even Lookingglass is a lovable loser with a sympathetic backstory. If they're meant to be so bad, why depict their actions so favourably? They're not unlikable. They're often quite the opposite, even when they're doing horrible things.

(I'm mentally comparing them with what Lovecraft Country did just this last episode, which I think was a more pointed and obvious critique of its lead than anything Watchmen did.)

Sleeveless
Dec 25, 2014
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Open Source Idiom posted:

I dunno. My overwhelming memory of the show is that they made the cop characters, particularly Angela, very cool. Yeah, they do bad things, but they're kinda awesome at it.

She's badass. So's Laurie. Even Lookingglass is a lovable loser with a sympathetic backstory. If they're meant to be so bad, why depict their actions so favourably? They're not unlikable. They're often quite the opposite, even when they're doing horrible things.

(I'm mentally comparing them with what Lovecraft Country did just this last episode, which I think was a more pointed and obvious critique of its lead than anything Watchmen did.)

I didn't know the guy from the "wow, cool space marines!" meme was based on a real person.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



Sleeveless posted:

Yet another way Watchmen was a harbinger of what was to come in 2020, it was one of the early casualties of the phenomena of people being told something incorrect about a piece of media before anyone has had a chance to watch it and then refusing to let go of that narrative even after the thing finally comes out and they can see for themselves that it's not true.

Yeah this happened with really big video game this summer (The Last of Us 2) and all that fuss amounted to a pile of dumb thinkpieces and a bunch of goons screeching and squawking about all sorts of poo poo and then being proven completely loving wrong about the whole thing and some of them just dug their heels in even further.

I also feel like they depict Angela as violent and unstable and her only really good quality is being a good mom. Looking Glass likes her enough to try to help her out and trust her but she seems as broken as the rest of them. The Slavic guy in the red seemingly only exists to remind you how stupid and silly the whole thing is, or the Panda head guy looking like poo poo, these cops are 100% NOT HEROES

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


Angela and Laurie are cool as hell but they're both cops and sociopaths. If you're personal moral compass gets so scattered by someone being cool then I guess you're also voting for trump this year

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

There's no "Good Guys" in the show, since it's Watchmen. The cops, the KKK, Hanged Justice, Angela, they're all bad and you shouldn't be Rooting For any of them. Same with lovecraft country or IASIP. We're here to watch them be terrible, do terrible things, and have terrible things inflicted on them.

My only beef with Watchmen is the ending. They played up a deranged cop becoming God as a playful, coy moment. "betcha wonder if she floated or not!!"

The only correct way to do that scene is to reflect that it's terrifying. That universe is doomed. They've traded in their apathetic god for an evil one. It should have been an Oppenheimer "I am become death" moment, not a cheeky tease

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



I get violent and desperate and impatient, but what does she do that is “evil” at any point, besides arguably murder her husband during what could easily have been a manic episode?

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006




I understand the argument that the show’s representations of violence from Regina King are highly aestheticized and, uh, cool-looking” for lack of a better word: she looks cool, does cool poo poo, is a badass, and succeeds. She tortures a guy to get information in the first episode, and the torture works—and this isn’t undone by the knowledge that the police chief arranged for the raid to happen, as the kkk guy getting tortured isn’t in on it. I can understand the claim that the show thereby normalizes and celebrates violence in a way that is at odds with the show’s critique of police and the state. That’s a problem in film that’s been around for a long time and maybe it’s unsolvable because drat violence can be very exciting to look at and create a sense of catharsis in an audience that enjoys seeing a nazi get cut apart by a chainsaw and so forth.

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

Bust Rodd posted:

I get violent and desperate and impatient, but what does she do that is “evil” at any point, besides arguably murder her husband during what could easily have been a manic episode?

Is a police officer.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Open Source Idiom posted:

I dunno. My overwhelming memory of the show is that they made the cop characters, particularly Angela, very cool. Yeah, they do bad things, but they're kinda awesome at it.

She's badass. So's Laurie. Even Lookingglass is a lovable loser with a sympathetic backstory. If they're meant to be so bad, why depict their actions so favourably? They're not unlikable. They're often quite the opposite, even when they're doing horrible things.

Sounds like Rorschach being simultaneously 'cool' and admirable ethically / a far-right crazy in the comics, so I guess they nailed Watchmen.

e: I mean, what kind of weird juvenile morality are people functioning under when they think that 'bad' characters being fun and cool is a mistake? It's basically Alan Moore's thesis on the innate fascism of superheroes.

Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Sep 23, 2020

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

Doesn't Alan Moore specifically, literally regrets making Rorschach "cool"? Also doesn't he regret just about anything he ever did? Maybe not the right guy to consider here, but I definitely remember him being frustrated that people liked the character.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



GoGoGadgetChris posted:

Doesn't Alan Moore specifically, literally regrets making Rorschach "cool"? Also doesn't he regret just about anything he ever did? Maybe not the right guy to consider here, but I definitely remember him being frustrated that people liked the character.

Alan Moore is sort of like JK Rowling in that he did some really cool storytelling but probably should have reigned themselves in a little bit or listened to their editor more and absolutely should have just shut the gently caress up after 2005, IMO. He’s just a creepy old crank and that’s pretty much all he’s been for the last 25 years, but Watchmen and VFV and TLoEG and Swamp Thing are all pinnacles of the medium so *SHRUG*

Promethea was boring and just sort of became a textbook for horny mysticism and went nowhere, I never read GIRLS because the cover looked very Pedo, and I tapped out after the first Neonomicon because I just honestly hated the art style.

The Killing Joke is absolutely awesome, but I think it’s a great example of modern comics taking all of the wrong lessons from it and creating the worst generation of Batman ever.

KoRMaK
Jul 31, 2012

Easter was an Inside Job


GoGoGadgetChris posted:


My only beef with Watchmen is the ending. They played up a deranged cop becoming God as a playful, coy moment. "betcha wonder if she floated or not!!"

The only correct way to do that scene is to reflect that it's terrifying. That universe is doomed. They've traded in their apathetic god for an evil one. It should have been an Oppenheimer "I am become death" moment, not a cheeky tease
Now THIS is a worthwhile point

honestly I dunno, I kinda trusted her to not be garbage with the powers for some unknown reason. Probably because I'm stupid, but I take your point although I dunno if it really changes much for me.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on




Pillbug

KoRMaK posted:

Now THIS is a worthwhile point

honestly I dunno, I kinda trusted her to not be garbage with the powers for some unknown reason. Probably because I'm stupid, but I take your point although I dunno if it really changes much for me.

She relived a lot of her grandfathers memories and because how she would be experiencing time, she’ll always be experiencing them at the same time as everything else, which would hopefully help balance her out considerably. I would think the Nostalgia polls were always part of Manhattan and HJ’s plan for exactly that reason.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


Antifa Turkeesian posted:

I understand the argument that the show’s representations of violence from Regina King are highly aestheticized and, uh, cool-looking” for lack of a better word: she looks cool, does cool poo poo, is a badass, and succeeds. She tortures a guy to get information in the first episode, and the torture works—and this isn’t undone by the knowledge that the police chief arranged for the raid to happen, as the kkk guy getting tortured isn’t in on it. I can understand the claim that the show thereby normalizes and celebrates violence in a way that is at odds with the show’s critique of police and the state. That’s a problem in film that’s been around for a long time and maybe it’s unsolvable because drat violence can be very exciting to look at and create a sense of catharsis in an audience that enjoys seeing a nazi get cut apart by a chainsaw and so forth.

I thought The Sopranos did a really, really good job eliminating nearly all the hype from its violence. The "big" heist sequence in the second season involves a character making GBS threads into a bucket while everyone feels uncomfortable.

I mean, yeah, we have Lubeman and Panda and some of the other crusty heroes, but then there's Sister Night. She's got the outfit, the attitude, the ability, the action music.. I don't see it as that much different to Snyder (and the criticism of his style of storytelling seems to be exactly that, a criticism of his style, not his substance). I can intellectualise the irony, but I don't find it particularly persuasive.

That, and the tendency for the script to fall into typical clichés of this kind of thing (the finale, as frequently pointed out, is very route, but there are other moments) makes me think it either doesn't go far enough, or wasn't really capable of recognising what it's handling and acting appropriately.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Bust Rodd posted:

I tapped out after the first Neonomicon because I just honestly hated the art style.

I was indifferent to the art style, but I hated the pretty egregious misogyny. Specifically, the treatment of the woman detective as a "nymphomaniac" trauma victim who both hates and loves getting raped by a Lovecraftian fishman. Whatever Alan Moore had to contribute to the artistic or literary world has long-since been contributed, and I'm really not precious about anything he's made.

Bust Rodd posted:

I get violent and desperate and impatient, but what does she do that is “evil” at any point...

I don't know that "evil" is a useful term for describing Watchmen characters. But pretty early on, there's the scene where Angela "interrogates" a guy by beating the poo poo out of him as visualized by a swinging door. Likening her to Rorschach doesn't speak to her being all that "heroic," I'd say.


The first few episodes of this show were incredible, but I also hated the ending. I think my problem is Lady Trieu, a character who seemed interesting and great at first, but who later felt like something out of a completely different show. The ending hit me as: "huh, the white supremacists are just clowns who played themselves. I guess the real villain was this ambitious immigrant the whole time!" I'm being slightly facetious, but it did give me whiplash that the white supremacists were treated as such a menacing threat for most of the show, to become almost comic relief in the end. It was jarring.

Not to say I'm opposed to Lady Trieu being "the actual villain;" she's the Veidt analog, so it makes sense. I just wish it was done better, or more cohesively. I imagine their intent was to say capitalism is the real enemy (this tech CEO feels she deserves Godhood because of her wealth, and she'll gladly steal it from this black man in a cage because he's wasting it!) But Trieu being Vietnamese kind of buries that lede, how her interests are essentially aligned with the white supremacists on this point. How she feels her wealth entitles her to Godhood just as Keene feels his whiteness does, and this black body is totally disposable to that end.

If I was going to script doctor, I'd want the show to conflate capital with white supremacy way more explicitly before the ending. Like, as great as Hong Chau is, maybe Trieu should've been more of an Elizabeth Holmes type, a white feminist tech CEO who postures progressive values she doesn't actually have. Maybe the couple she bribes into vacating their home is black, making her Tulsa campus the explicit result of gentrification. Maybe she supports Senator Keene through donations and fundraisers because he's "friendly to business" (did that happen in the show? I forget.) It doesn't matter what, just whatever it would take to make Trieu's grab for power at the end feel like part of the primary story being told and not some strange non-sequitur, which is how it struck me as I watched it.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003

and god is on your side
dividing sparrows from the nightingales

Sleeveless posted:

I didn't know the guy from the "wow, cool space marines!" meme was based on a real person.

do you also think 24 has an anti-torture message dude

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Nieuw Amsterdam
Dec 1, 2006

Dignité. Toujours, dignité.

zer0spunk posted:

yes, it does suck being a fan of the book.

even the guy that wrote it wants nothing to do with it at this point, continuing to stand up for it feels like you can't win. the people that made it are no longer on speaking terms, that's how hosed the entire thing is.

people not liking this show shouldn't lessen your enjoyment of it. echo chambers are also dumb.

“Even the guy who wrote it”

Cool to hear that Alan Moore used his snake magic to conjure Watchmen into existence all by himself.

The other guy who created it, Dave Gibbons, was involved with the show from the start.

There’s also a pretty good argument that colorist John Higgins and editors Len Wein and Barbara Kesel are also co-authors. All of them had direct story input.

And of course the main characters are based on the old Charlton Comics superheroes, created by Joe Gill, Steve Ditko, David Kaler, and Pete Morisi.

Editor Dick Giordano, who previously worked at Charlton, and was closely involved with the project, rejected Moore’s pitch to use the Charlton Heroes so he “reimagined” them for the exact same story.

Please tell us more about your undying devotion to this book and it’s sole author, Alan “original idea do not steal” Moore.

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