Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
lobsterminator
Oct 16, 2012




Doom Mathematic posted:

Yeah. And right now, it's easy to lambast Google for having horrible gamed search results, but is it even theoretically possible to create an automated search ranking which can't be gamed? You're trying to outmaneuver the entire tech world.

We already had the perfect solution:
- Want to find info about knitting
- Go to Yahoo site index
- Find category hobbies
- Find knitting
- Click on a site
- Navigate to other similar sites using the web ring header on the badly programmed geocities page

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Cold on a Cob
Feb 6, 2006

i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually

College Slice

lobsterminator posted:

We already had the perfect solution:
- Want to find info about knitting
- Go to Yahoo site index
- Find category hobbies
- Find knitting
- Click on a site
- Navigate to other similar sites using the web ring header on the badly programmed geocities page

this is how my pre-gamefaqs breath of fire 2 strategies and tips page was getting 1k+ unique daily visitors at its peak

we'll never get 1996 internet back but i miss it sometimes

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

Doom Mathematic posted:

Yeah. And right now, it's easy to lambast Google for having horrible gamed search results, but is it even theoretically possible to create an automated search ranking which can't be gamed? You're trying to outmaneuver the entire tech world.

just use https://search.marginalia.nu/ op

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Doom Mathematic posted:

Yeah. And right now, it's easy to lambast Google for having horrible gamed search results, but is it even theoretically possible to create an automated search ranking which can't be gamed? You're trying to outmaneuver the entire tech world.

not without a reliable way to track and identify individual people on the internet so that their bad reputations can be made to follow them around, no. and apart from being unworkable on an international level such a system would be hugely undesirable for obvious reasons.

algorithms cannot save you from the need for people to have durable reputations and durable reputations are an awful thing to have. it's the reason why decentralized anything on the internet is doomed to fail.

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

lobsterminator posted:

We already had the perfect solution:
- Want to find info about knitting
- Go to Yahoo site index
- Find category hobbies
- Find knitting
- Click on a site
- Navigate to other similar sites using the web ring header on the badly programmed geocities page

i mean we have basically that anyway, it's just instead of a webring of sites you have to go to the knitting subreddit or the knitting stackexchange site, because centralization means those are where all the people who would have produced html 1.0 webpages on the subject in 1997 post instead

Plorkyeran
Mar 22, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

Doom Mathematic posted:

Yeah. And right now, it's easy to lambast Google for having horrible gamed search results, but is it even theoretically possible to create an automated search ranking which can't be gamed? You're trying to outmaneuver the entire tech world.

i think it is hard to say from the outside if search is in its current state because it is impossible to make it better or if it simply doesn't make financial sense to make it better. as long as it remains useful to type things into google search and no competitors are clearly better, it's not immediately obvious that you'd expect a meaningful increase in revenue from investing heavily in improving search quality compared to things like continuing to invest in the knowledge base stuff. even if you concluded that spending $10b on paying humans to look at search results and manually filter out garbage would drive $11b of additional revenue, does that actually improve google's financials? software companies "aren't allowed" to do low margin things because their valuation is driven by insane gross margins.

lobsterminator
Oct 16, 2012




Only thing I'd like is to be able to block Quora and Pinterest from google results. Otherwise the thing I want/need is usually in the first few results.

Nomnom Cookie
Aug 30, 2009



Plorkyeran posted:

i think it is hard to say from the outside if search is in its current state because it is impossible to make it better or if it simply doesn't make financial sense to make it better. as long as it remains useful to type things into google search and no competitors are clearly better, it's not immediately obvious that you'd expect a meaningful increase in revenue from investing heavily in improving search quality compared to things like continuing to invest in the knowledge base stuff. even if you concluded that spending $10b on paying humans to look at search results and manually filter out garbage would drive $11b of additional revenue, does that actually improve google's financials? software companies "aren't allowed" to do low margin things because their valuation is driven by insane gross margins.

google employs a huge number of people (at least thousands) to manually curate its serps. it has done this for decades

Zamujasa
Oct 27, 2010



Bread Liar
several times lately I've looked at results just to find they're almost generic seo spam pages full of machine generated text, where things like the author photo is an AI generated face with hosed up features and links in the footer are painted on

it's wild

MrQueasy
Nov 15, 2005

Probiot-ICK

lobsterminator posted:

Only thing I'd like is to be able to block Quora and Pinterest from google results. Otherwise the thing I want/need is usually in the first few results.

I can get DDG image search to block pinterest with a `(NOT site:pinterest.com)` but it doesn't work for the main search...

Though I've heard rumors that DDG is attempting to phase out site: because "no one uses it"

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



i wish google had a denylist of sites that i could configure. im sure there's a way to hack that together but...i dont wanna go to that kind of effort, they should do it for me

Cold on a Cob
Feb 6, 2006

i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually

College Slice

Achmed Jones posted:

i wish google had a denylist of sites that i could configure. im sure there's a way to hack that together but...i dont wanna go to that kind of effort, they should do it for me

there are extensions for this

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



are any of them trustworthy?

Cold on a Cob
Feb 6, 2006

i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually

College Slice

Achmed Jones posted:

are any of them trustworthy?

idk because i don't use them

ploots
Mar 19, 2010
you can set up ublock origin filters to prevent google results from any site you want:

https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/dzjogk/can_you_somehow_remove_sites_from_google_search/

eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Zamujasa posted:

several times lately I've looked at results just to find they're almost generic seo spam pages full of machine generated text, where things like the author photo is an AI generated face with hosed up features and links in the footer are painted on

it's wild

just wait until all this is being done for the consumption of other machines and starts leveraging adversarial neural networks and such

things are very soon going to get truly bizarre and more people should read Vernor Vinge, John Brunner, and Charles Stross before it’s too late

Analytic Engine
May 18, 2009

not the analytical engine

eschaton posted:

just wait until all this is being done for the consumption of other machines and starts leveraging adversarial neural networks and such

things are very soon going to get truly bizarre and more people should read Vernor Vinge, John Brunner, and Charles Stross before it’s too late

got a starting story for each of them? I'm assuming Vonnegut wasn't computery enough to make that list, like they are KV 2.0

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


i think it is more honest to say that pagerank was invented in mit by page and brin and other co-contributors, probably at the expense of united states taxpayers. then, they founded google and proceeded to invent adwords and all the other crap

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


Analytic Engine posted:

got a starting story for each of them? I'm assuming Vonnegut wasn't computery enough to make that list, like they are KV 2.0

brunner's the sheep look up is pretty good in my opinion. i read it during the trump presidency and it was way too realistic for a book written in the early 70s

rjmccall
Sep 7, 2007

no worries friend
Fun Shoe

Penisface posted:

i think it is more honest to say that pagerank was invented in mit by page and brin and other co-contributors, probably at the expense of united states taxpayers. then, they founded google and proceeded to invent adwords and all the other crap

would be even more honest to say stanford

MrQueasy
Nov 15, 2005

Probiot-ICK

Analytic Engine posted:

got a starting story for each of them? I'm assuming Vonnegut wasn't computery enough to make that list, like they are KV 2.0

I really liked the AR ideas in Vinge’s Rainbows End

it was a bit less dry than his previous Hugo winner A Fire Upon the Deep, but also less ambitious in scope.

The two books are really dissimilar, so if you don’t like one, you might like the other.

alexandriao
Jul 20, 2019


MrQueasy posted:

I really liked the AR ideas in Vinge’s Rainbows End

it was a bit less dry than his previous Hugo winner A Fire Upon the Deep, but also less ambitious in scope.

The two books are really dissimilar, so if you don’t like one, you might like the other.

I really really liked True Names

alexandriao
Jul 20, 2019


WalterBright 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [–]
> to go as low as possible
On the other hand, it could be to not give the workers a reason to unionize.
reply


SrslyJosh 2 hours ago | unvote | root | parent | next [–]
LOL, LMAO
reply


WalterBright 17 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–]
I see you think this is a win-lose system. Free markets, however, are a win-win system. Both parties must win for the transaction to happen.
The employer-employee relationship is just another transaction, and should be win-win. If a manager sees it as win-lose, he should be fired. The same goes for an employee.
I've been an employer and an employee, and always recognized that it should be a win-win relationship and approached it from that angle.
reply

alexandriao
Jul 20, 2019


hner posted:

I see you think this is a win-lose system. Free markets, however, are a win-win system

I love that you can often pinpoint the exact point at which someone starts talking poo poo. and nine times out of ten its in the first sentence.

Internet Janitor
May 17, 2008

"That isn't the appropriate trash receptacle."
"as someone who has been on both sides of the table, i don't believe i acted with malice or coercive intent, therefore those things aren't real"

mystes
May 31, 2006

WalterIAmVeryBright

Edit: oh god that's the D guy isn't it lmao

eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Analytic Engine posted:

got a starting story for each of them? I'm assuming Vonnegut wasn't computery enough to make that list, like they are KV 2.0

oh Vonnegut and Dick should be in there too, as should Peter Watts (but not his first awful series)

reading list, in order:

John Brunner:
  • Stand on Zanzibar
  • The Sheep Look Up
  • The Shockwave Rider

Vernor Vinge:
  • True Names and Other Dangers (compilation)
  • Across Realtime (compilation, last story’s best but needs background from the first two)
  • A Fire Upon the Deep (and its prequel & sequel, but they’re less “big idea”)

Charlie Stross:
  • Accelerando

Peter Watts:
  • Blindsight
  • Echopraxia

all have various kinds of “yeah the future’s going to be really weird” and Brunner in particular looks like a loving time traveler when you see the three books I recommended are from 1968-1976 and reflect the modern era extremely well

Zamujasa
Oct 27, 2010



Bread Liar
you can tell someone's had an insulated life when they have no concept of power differences


:dadjoke:



alexandriao posted:

SrslyJosh 2 hours ago | unvote | root | parent | next [–]
LOL, LMAO
reply

eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Sniep posted:

got to see that everywhere I turn will point to the fact that time is eternal

great now I need to put on the Stadium House Trilogy again while I reread The Manual

mystes
May 31, 2006

Zamujasa posted:

you can tell someone's had an insulated life when they have no concept of power differences


:dadjoke:
He's a boomer who's just been chilling doing his own programming language for decades so like, I don't know, maybe he doesn't have deep insight into labor relations and shouldn't be posting hot takes on the internet?

Now I'm worried that hn is brainwashing computer touching boomers

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

WalterBright isn't quite graycat levels, but it's still cheating

eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Sapozhnik posted:

not without a reliable way to track and identify individual people on the internet so that their bad reputations can be made to follow them around, no. and apart from being unworkable on an international level such a system would be hugely undesirable for obvious reasons.

the adtech companies build exactly this sort of profile on everyone

it wouldn’t surprise me if Google and Facebook even use techniques like writing style analysis to try to link random text to identities for further information mining

Plorkyeran
Mar 22, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

Jose Valasquez posted:

WalterBright isn't quite graycat levels, but it's still cheating

he's pretty far short of graycat. he has pretty unremarkable views for a rich old white guy who last had to work for a living a few decades ago, and only stands out because most of those don't post on places like hn

Qwertycoatl
Dec 31, 2008

alexandriao posted:

WalterBright 17 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–]
I see you think this is a win-lose system. Free markets, however, are a win-win system. Both parties must win for the transaction to happen.
The employer-employee relationship is just another transaction, and should be win-win. If a manager sees it as win-lose, he should be fired. The same goes for an employee.
I've been an employer and an employee, and always recognized that it should be a win-win relationship and approached it from that angle.
reply

"Power imbalance isn't real and if any of my employees thought it was, I'd fire them"

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


i could also interpret this post as the OP realizing that situations that are win-lose must be reworked to become win-win. and if someone in power is content to have a win-lose relationship with their workers then they should be fired

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


Penisface posted:

i could also interpret this post as the OP realizing that situations that are win-lose must be reworked to become win-win. and if someone in power is content to have a win-lose relationship with their workers then they should be fired

You know that's not what he's saying.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

ultrafilter posted:

You know that's not what he's saying.

maybe? it’s through the lens of business school capitalism is the best thing ever thinking but isn’t win win here “employee gets enough money and feels good, I don’t have to pay for more onboarding costs”

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



i read it the same way as hobbesmaster

ultravoices
May 10, 2004

You are about to embark on a great journey. Are you ready, my friend?

eschaton posted:

oh Vonnegut and Dick should be in there too, as should Peter Watts (but not his first awful series)

for greg egan, permutation city is a good place to start. if it grabs you he's got PLENTY more. if it stops making sense, he's good at summarizing things towards the end of the infodump.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Internet Janitor
May 17, 2008

"That isn't the appropriate trash receptacle."
Ted Chiang is great, but most of his stories leave me feeling tremendously depressed

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply