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jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


Transistor Rhythm posted:

Whats the actual implication of this?

Could be a lot of things, really. Could be as little as to reflect that Black Bolt and Vulcan had similar experiences after the War of Kings. Could be as much as "This Vulcan is a clone with implanted memories, some of which came from Black Bolt." Could be something in the middle, or something else entirely.

That's why it's interesting...because it's fun to speculate about...but not decisive because we can't know what it actually means until Hickman gets around to explaining it to us.

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Codependent Poster
Oct 20, 2003




Yeah, or it could be that Vulcan survived in Black Bolt. It was never really clarified how Black Bolt survived. So is there a Vulcan running around in or as Black Bolt? Did they resurrect Vulcan with another one out there, or is the one at Krakoa this the same one that came back from the Fault?

He says that he has that dream every night as well.

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters


To expand on that a bit, War of Kings was a crossover from a decade ago that had a war between kings, primary among them then-Kree ruler Black Bolt and then-Shi'ar Emperor Vulcan.

The crossover ends with both of them fighting on a doomsday device that eventually exploded, ripping a hole in reality and apparently killing both Black Bolt and Vulcan.

In Hickman's FF run a couple of years later Black Bolt is just kind of... back, without a ton of explanation beyond "he woke up in that page that was tweeted, and then got rescued by Lockjaw."

Vulcan meanwhile remained dead (or I guess hypothetically floating in the void) until he reappeared in Hickman's X-Men #1, where it isn't really discussed if he survived/escaped the Fault or got resurrected or what.

The scene of Vulcan floating in the void is from a recurring 'bad dream' he has, so it's not entirely clear what happened to Vulcan, and before production was suspended the book was right in the middle of another storyline with the Kree and Shi'ar fighting. Maybe there are two Vulcans (one in the Void, one in resurrected on Krakoa) with some weird shared memories. Maybe there's just one Vulcan who escaped the void and ended up on Krakoa but doesn't remember how.

I assume the parallel pages are largely just a fun Easter Egg, but overall it's also part of a build-up to what I assume is a reveal of some sort?

Open Marriage Night
Sep 18, 2009

"Do you want to talk to a spider, Peter?"

I never considered that lovely Vulcan might still be out there, and this one is a more innocent back up.

Adder Moray
Nov 18, 2010


I really hope there aren't two Vulcans. I like the idea that, To quote myself:

Adder Moray posted:

He had a traumatic experience, came home, found his brothers ready to welcome him with open arms, despite everything, and now spends half his time being a member of the family and half his time blasted out of his mind with his old team.

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters


I realize I'm not a Summers brother but Vulcan staged a coup and then had Havok imprisoned and tortured for a couple of years and spent his time torturting/mocking him about how much mutants suck while he was blazing a path of genocidal imperialism across the galaxy, that feels like something that's a little hard to hug out off-panel.

EDIT: He murdered his dad too, still not sure how he came back to life? But the whole spitting on their dad and murdering him in front of Havok is also possibly a sore spot.

Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 06:59 on May 24, 2020

Adder Moray
Nov 18, 2010


Edge & Christian posted:

I realize I'm not a Summers brother but Vulcan staged a coup and then had Havok imprisoned and tortured for a couple of years and spent his time torturting/mocking him about how much mutants suck while he was blazing a path of genocidal imperialism across the galaxy, that feels like something that's a little hard to hug out off-panel.

I'm just gonna go ahead and point at Apocalypse standing in the corner over there and shrug.

Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


Vulcan as he existed was such a miserable character as to be unworkable, so I don't mind a general reset of his personality if we get a viable character out of it.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



Edge & Christian posted:

I realize I'm not a Summers brother but Vulcan staged a coup and then had Havok imprisoned and tortured for a couple of years and spent his time torturting/mocking him about how much mutants suck while he was blazing a path of genocidal imperialism across the galaxy, that feels like something that's a little hard to hug out off-panel.

EDIT: He murdered his dad too, still not sure how he came back to life? But the whole spitting on their dad and murdering him in front of Havok is also possibly a sore spot.

Oh, you and your notion of human laws and forgiveness!

danbanana
Jun 7, 2008

OG Bell's fanboi

https://youtu.be/pQrb_ZhIgJs

Claremont on the Cartoonist Kayfabe channel. Haven't watched yet but this is my favorite comics podcast/channel right now.

Open Marriage Night
Sep 18, 2009

"Do you want to talk to a spider, Peter?"

That guys shirt rules. Id wear that.

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters


Adder Moray posted:

I'm just gonna go ahead and point at Apocalypse standing in the corner over there and shrug.
Yes, and multiple books and characters are in fact pointing at Apocalypse and some people are shrugging and some people are not and there's been considerable time given to Apocalypse's mindset and other character's mindset about the whole thing. There hasn't been any of that with Vulcan, though I believe the page that sparked this conversation is lampshading that Hickman is planning on getting there.


Dawgstar posted:

Oh, you and your notion of human laws and forgiveness!
I know "Krakoa is For All Mutants" but individual mutants still have feelings and yes ha ha it is a science fiction story, ha ha, you foolish flatscan, ha ha.

But the first time we see Vulcan in Hickman's X-Men he's grilling food for the Summers family and the Starjammers.

The last time we see Vulcan before Hickman's X-Men he's not just being a mad genocidal emperor, which speaking of Apocalypse is kind of a different scale of foolish-human-morality evil in that Apocalypse is at least motivated by some sort of Survival of the Fittest and keeps his wars to one planet generally. He was specifically motivated by spite for the very people who he's having dinner with.

He deliberately murdered Corsair, captured Havok and the rest of the Starjammers and tortured them for weeks while gloating about how he killed his dad and is going to crush the universe and go to Earth and kill Scott and Jean and everyone his brother ever cared about, sent kill-squads across the galaxy to try to murder Rachel Summers, sent someone to suicide bomb a wedding to try to kill Havok/Rachel/the Starjammers after they escaped, ordered a kill squad to murder Lilandra and succeeded (the same kill squad that was sent to Earth and killed all of the surviving members of the Grey family that weren't Jean or Rachel) and just was just generally a Mad Emperor who casually murdered tons of Shi'ar and Kree people too.

I'm not saying Hickman is ignoring this, he's explicitly not ignoring this given the build so far, but it's fair to ask both why the folks at the dinner at X-Men #1 would welcome Vulcan back with open arms or frankly why Vulcan would want to be at the dinner party.

X-Men #9 also ends with the X-Men rocketing off to the exact area where he was committing all of those war crimes (and also the general area where he originally 'died') so I am sure that this is part of the story and is going to be addressed, my comment wasn't criticizing the story on the page, it was more questioning the idea that even within the Krakoa For All Mutants built in the story that "He had a traumatic experience, came home, found his brothers ready to welcome him with open arms, despite everything" is really tenable.

And yes, there are lots of mutants that have done lots of bad things over the decades and still are on Krakoa. Most of them are being looked upon with more suspicion than Vulcan, and if you pick a name out of a hat (Magento, Mystique, Apocalypse) they've had hundreds of comics they're in where their overall characterization has swung between Tragically Flawed Anti-Hero and Cackling Genocidal Monster.

Vulcan first appeared in 2006, started his Cackling Genocidal Monster run immediately afterwards, and then "died" less than three years later. His only story (outside of Deadly Genesis flashbacks) has been as a homicidal/genocidal/patricidal/would-be-fratricidal monster, which is a story that Hickman has already directly referenced in a way he isn't directly referencing "remember when I crucified you on the side of the Empire State Building, Charles? Twice? Well, water under the bridge."

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



For the record I don't actually disagree with you - there's a lot of stuff that gets swept under the rug on Krakoa with some genuinely horrendous people bopping around like it's nothing.

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004



There's also the feral children thing

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


I think this is one more piece of evidence towards "There's something rotten in the state of Krakoa" theory.

Autism Sneaks
Nov 21, 2016
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


you'd have thought there would have been more tension in even setting up the gate on Chandrilar considering it now puts their former evil emperor just a skip away from the throneworld. by the way, go visit your daughter Chuck, you deadbeat

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

That the X-Men are acting weird about a lot of things is...kinda piecemeal at this point. Either they're all brainwashed cultists, soulless husks, or Hickman's never gonna address it, whatever.

That Kallark sees Vulcan and doesn't immediately lose 500% of his poo poo was honestly way more bonkers in that issue.

Synthbuttrange
May 6, 2007

I feel the pressure,
under more scrutiny
And what I do,
act more stupidly




'whats that charles, you want us to go live on the island that nearly ate us and killed the secret x-men team you mindwiped everyone's memories of?'

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Don't worry, He's Good NowTM

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Alaois posted:

Don't worry, He's Good NowTM

I mean to be fair this is genuinely true for like 75% of X-Men characters.

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.



I'm willing to give Hickman a lot of leeway on things like Vulcan since one of the explicit goals of Dawn of X seems to be to un-gently caress certain legacy X-men characters who got rendered virtually unusable thanks to lovely deaths and/or years of cumulative bad storytelling.

Speaking of which; has Warren Worthington shown up on Krakoa yet?

Synthbuttrange
May 6, 2007

I feel the pressure,
under more scrutiny
And what I do,
act more stupidly




'So you left me as a completely amnesiac weirdo despite having a complete backup of my brain why?'
'It was really really funny'

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.

Warren is on the cover of the first Empyre:X-Men book, and he was on the raid on the Mastermold in space in House of X where everyone died. He had his Archangel powers and look on the raid.

Wanderer
Nov 5, 2006

our every move is the new tradition


Edge & Christian posted:

EDIT: He murdered his dad too, still not sure how he came back to life? But the whole spitting on their dad and murdering him in front of Havok is also possibly a sore spot.

IIRC, Hepzibah shot him up with the techno-organic virus to bring him back. It was a plot point in Greg Rucka's Cyclops mini that Corsair still wasn't in the best of health and was using unspecified pills to keep the infection in check.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

There were...
ABSOLUTELY NO CONSEQUENCES.



Synthbuttrange posted:

'whats that charles, you want us to go live on the island that nearly ate us and killed the secret x-men team you mindwiped everyone's memories of?'

Considering they were Moira's students first, I think Hickman's going to be revisiting Deadly Genesis in some capacity.

Sandwolf
Jan 23, 2007

cheers



Yvonmukluk posted:

Considering they were Moira's students first, I think Hickman's going to be revisiting Deadly Genesis in some capacity.

Wait, what? Did I miss that in DoX?

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.

Sandwolf posted:

Wait, what? Did I miss that in DoX?

That's not in HoXPoX, I assumed that was something from Deadly Genesis, which I've never read.

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters


Yeah, the story of Deadly Genesis is basically how Xavier's original team gets taken in by Krakoa, then he 'borrows' Moira's team of kids, they also get taken/killed, then he recruits the All-New, All-Different X-Men to rescue both (just his team).

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.

Are Xavier and Magneto the only ones so far to be shown to know the truth about Moira?

Cocks Cable
Jul 11, 2001



I haven't been able to read HoX/PoX and have just been following along vicariously through you guys. One day I plan to read it (but kids and no time and stuff). One thing that is confusing to me about Moira is that she "died" in the late 90s and is now retconned to be this major player. But has she shown up alive again the books? Is taking an active role in the current plot or is she just being referred to in absentee? I don't get it.

danbanana
Jun 7, 2008

OG Bell's fanboi

Cocks Cable posted:

I haven't been able to read HoX/PoX and have just been following along vicariously through you guys. One day I plan to read it (but kids and no time and stuff). One thing that is confusing to me about Moira is that she "died" in the late 90s and is now retconned to be this major player. But has she shown up alive again the books? Is taking an active role in the current plot or is she just being referred to in absentee? I don't get it.

It's the big thing in HoXPoX so we probably shouldn't spoil it too much.

Soonmot
Dec 19, 2002

Entrapta fucking loves robots


Grimey Drawer

Cocks Cable posted:

I haven't been able to read HoX/PoX and have just been following along vicariously through you guys. One day I plan to read it (but kids and no time and stuff). One thing that is confusing to me about Moira is that she "died" in the late 90s and is now retconned to be this major player. But has she shown up alive again the books? Is taking an active role in the current plot or is she just being referred to in absentee? I don't get it.

Marvel Unlimited, all those books are up there now and the kids gotta sleep sometime, right?

Cloks
Jan 31, 2013

Guaranteed to be right twice a day.




Spent 4 hours hanging out with Leah Williams on zoom Saturday night and she swore me to secrecy on a lot of stuff but X-Factor looks good.

danbanana
Jun 7, 2008

OG Bell's fanboi

danbanana posted:

https://youtu.be/pQrb_ZhIgJs

Claremont on the Cartoonist Kayfabe channel. Haven't watched yet but this is my favorite comics podcast/channel right now.

It took 30 minutes (mostly due to a boring retelling about him doing the SNL comic) for him to poo poo on some current X-Book!

wielder
Feb 16, 2008

"You had best not do that, Avatar!"

Claremont admits he doesn't even read the mutant books by other people, so it's really just his "high level" opinion based on hearsay.

danbanana
Jun 7, 2008

OG Bell's fanboi

wielder posted:

Claremont admits he doesn't even read the mutant books by other people, so it's really just his "high level" opinion based on hearsay.

At C2E2 he was apparently poo poo-talking HoXPoX openly. And here he mentions opening an unnamed book where he "created 2/3 of the characters" and reading half of it. Dude is still opening books- at least now- to form an opinion. It's not that I don't believe he "doesn't read" X-books anymore. I think it's more that he's not actively reading monthly.

I don't think it's a controversial thing to say that his run will forever help define those characters but that his way of telling their stories isn't the only way. It's weird to hear someone not fully understand that...

wielder
Feb 16, 2008

"You had best not do that, Avatar!"

danbanana posted:

At C2E2 he was apparently poo poo-talking HoXPoX openly. And here he mentions opening an unnamed book where he "created 2/3 of the characters" and reading half of it. Dude is still opening books- at least now- to form an opinion. It's not that I don't believe he "doesn't read" X-books anymore. I think it's more that he's not actively reading monthly.

I don't think it's a controversial thing to say that his run will forever help define those characters but that his way of telling their stories isn't the only way. It's weird to hear someone not fully understand that...

Regardless of how much credit Chris Claremont deserves, which nobody can ever take away from him, other people can and will write the characters. He should accept that.

I mean, making a throwaway reference to "reading half of it" without a lot of specifics (and what's the particular "it" involved? House of X #1, the collected edition of HOX/POX or something else entirely?) seems closer to the equivalent of browsing through a magazine at the store, being turned off by some of the ideas or dialogue on the page and then putting it down. He has also gone on the record about not caring for modern X-titles before, so I can't entirely imagine him doing a good faith read at this point.

Ironically, I think we all know that the current status quo isn't going to last forever and there will be reveals in due time, even if it's not exactly like Claremont's Krakoa idea (but, who knows, maybe it could have parallels).

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

There were...
ABSOLUTELY NO CONSEQUENCES.



Cloks posted:

Spent 4 hours hanging out with Leah Williams on zoom Saturday night and she swore me to secrecy on a lot of stuff but X-Factor looks good.

Did you mention that one cool as heck Magik costume?

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010



Didn't know X-Factor was a thing again. Any decent outlines out there?

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Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Chris Claremont gave comics so much with his X-Men run. He revived and redefined a dying franchise, and everything from that run is so iconic that it effectively changed comics as a whole forever. Claremont's X-Men is a landmark and he should always be respected and credited for that.

However, it's also been like thirty years since he's written a comic that wasn't either mediocre or brain-searingly awful so I'm not sure I care about what 2020 Claremont thinks about modern comics at all.

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