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Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 9, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.


we have a lot of "programme managers" and they live 100% in powerpoint and spend most of their time fighting tooth and nail for everything to stay as green in defiance of reality.

also creating meetings with 50 people on them for a programme update where nobody is listening at all, then sending out minutes of their own voice

oh, and also *constantly* asking for estimates of time/cost for things that have not yet been defined.

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fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

oh, and also *constantly* asking for estimates of time/cost for things that have not yet been defined.

hi

Trimson Grondag 3
Jul 1, 2007

Clapping Larry
look if you could just give me a list of everything thats possible to build and how long it would take then I could just pick the products I want to develop and we could avoid these conversations.

Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 9, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.



look if you could just give me your budget and resource requirements for the next 12-18 months well lock down the budget now and you can define the precise implementation when we start ok?

please get back to me by close of play, I need to update the status powerpoint

Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 9, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.


fart simpson I see you have asked for 2 developers, one qa, 6 months of analysis, 12 months of development and 500k in Aws credits this creates a budget requirement of 2.5 million which is unacceptable to management

please adjust your estimates to 1 person for 6 months which is what I have put into the plan

e: and we are moving to Google cloud to realise a cost saving of 6 dollars a month

El Mero Mero
Oct 13, 2001

we have the additional unhelpful role of product owner, who is supposed to be an internal point of contact for a system but in reality is just Yet Another Intermediary.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

oh, and also *constantly* asking for estimates of time/cost for things that have not yet been defined.

i think if i had to point at just one thing that got me to start looking for an exit at my last job it was this. i had to have this fight on a monthly basis and it was just wearing me down

well that and being promised that my team wouldn’t be held to the completely arbitrary numbers i pulled out of my rear end and we all know how well that promise holds up

Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 9, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.


El Mero Mero posted:

we have the additional unhelpful role of product owner, who is supposed to be an internal point of contact for a system but in reality is just Yet Another Intermediary.

we also have "business owner" which is generally someone that's senior in the relevant area and so has no idea whatsoever about what the system does.

they are supposed to sign off on all sorts of policy cruft and a non-trivial amount of time is spent having to explain over and over again what it is, only to have them say something like "well actually I don't see why you need access to any data for 'development purposes'"

Cold on a Cob
Feb 6, 2006

i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually
College Slice

El Mero Mero posted:

we have the additional unhelpful role of product owner, who is supposed to be an internal point of contact for a system but in reality is just Yet Another Intermediary.

we retitled our business analysts to product owners and made no other change to their daily duties, lol

Asymmetric POSTer
Aug 17, 2005

in my company “business analysts” are a generic title for mini-mes a more senior person dumps all their grunt work onto

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

My org has like twice as many PMs as they do designers

"calendar janitors" sounds about right, and half the time designers need to nag them about schedules

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

fart simpson I see you have asked for 2 developers, one qa, 6 months of analysis, 12 months of development and 500k in Aws credits this creates a budget requirement of 2.5 million which is unacceptable to management

please adjust your estimates to 1 person for 6 months which is what I have put into the plan

e: and we are moving to Google cloud to realise a cost saving of 6 dollars a month

that’s what i was going to say

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



fart simpson posted:

that’s what i was going to say

you work on hardware stuff though right? genuinely kinda curious to know if it's... pretty much the same bullshit project planning-wise or if there's anything different about it.

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Shame Boy posted:

you work on hardware stuff though right? genuinely kinda curious to know if it's... pretty much the same bullshit project planning-wise or if there's anything different about it.

well ive not really worked on software stuff beyond hardware companion apps so idk. it not exactly the same i guess

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

but we (product managers at my company) are regularly jerking around the software and hardware and mechanical guys by shifting requirements and trying to get their bosses to agree to a death march. if that helps illuminate

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



fart simpson posted:

but we (product managers at my company) are regularly jerking around the software and hardware and mechanical guys by shifting requirements and trying to get their bosses to agree to a death march. if that helps illuminate

yeah that sounds about the same lol

also i thought you said "death match" at first which was a much more interesting mental image

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Shame Boy posted:

yeah that sounds about the same lol

also i thought you said "death match" at first which was a much more interesting mental image

do you guys in software not use the term death march?

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

the biggest difference i can gather is it seems like software people keep working on the same software forever???? we make a hardware and everything has to come together for the start of production date and the instant we start production we’re done and everyone moves on to the next project

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
https://www.amazon.com/Death-March-2nd-Edward-Yourdon/dp/013143635X

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



fart simpson posted:

do you guys in software not use the term death march?

no we do i'm just groggy and my brain made the sentence funnier

fart simpson posted:

the biggest difference i can gather is it seems like software people keep working on the same software forever???? we make a hardware and everything has to come together for the start of production date and the instant we start production we’re done and everyone moves on to the next project

oh that is something i didn't really think about but yeah. we definitely switch what customers or features we're focusing on over time but it's still the same core Thing we're working on forever

Asymmetric POSTer
Aug 17, 2005

fart simpson posted:

the biggest difference i can gather is it seems like software people keep working on the same software forever???? we make a hardware and everything has to come together for the start of production date and the instant we start production we’re done and everyone moves on to the next project

what happens when you realize after production started the product is a piece of poo poo that doesn’t work?

Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 9, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.


I've been working on the same system for like 15 years god what's wrong with me

also I'm the combined "product owner", architect, senior BA and technical lead lmao

oh and I'm the head of the wider area this comes under lol

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Asymmetric POSTer posted:

what happens when you realize after production started the product is a piece of poo poo that doesn’t work?

that becomes the problem of someone called the “operations project manager” lol

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

the opm’s stated job is to manage the projects that have already started production. not my problem lol (usually, sometimes it is my problem)

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

fart simpson posted:

do you guys in software not use the term death march?

we do. we have the added bonus that once a death march starts it can theoretically never end!

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

*crying pm meme* bro just one more feature. please. this one is real critical we gotta get this done asap. i promise this is the last one

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

PIZZA.BAT posted:

we do. we have the added bonus that once a death march starts it can theoretically never end!

i have worked on a hardware project that was delayed and worked on for 8 (eight) years

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



fart simpson posted:

i have worked on a hardware project that was delayed and worked on for 8 (eight) years

did it have to be redesigned a bunch? i'd imagine you can't just release some consumer electronics thing designed 8 years ago without it looking real weird right?

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



like that's gotta be what, 20 different bluetooth versions behind at that point? lol

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Shame Boy posted:

did it have to be redesigned a bunch? i'd imagine you can't just release some consumer electronics thing designed 8 years ago without it looking real weird right?

it was not redesigned, it was a tech demo that we gave at a trade show which had unexpected positive reception. so we spent 8 years half assedly making it actually work for more than the demo. eventually it actually worked pretty good and we released it to way after all the excitement was dead and it totally flopped and we sold basically 0 of them lol

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



fart simpson posted:

it was not redesigned, it was a tech demo that we gave at a trade show which had unexpected positive reception. so we spent 8 years half assedly making it actually work for more than the demo. eventually it actually worked pretty good and we released it to way after all the excitement was dead and it totally flopped and we sold basically 0 of them lol

oh god i was tasked with making pretty much the software equivalent of that once and the same thing happened lmao

mystes
May 31, 2006

Shame Boy posted:

oh god i was tasked with making pretty much the software equivalent of that once and the same thing happened lmao
was this at the same place as the office plugin thing?

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



it connected our software to this little portable credit card reader and charged a card, then "printed a receipt" (aka sent a hardcoded string to a receipt printer, which are basically just 80's-era line printers with network cards glued to them)

everyone was very impressed for some reason and I was cursed by that ever since

Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 9, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.


fart simpson posted:

it was not redesigned, it was a tech demo that we gave at a trade show which had unexpected positive reception. so we spent 8 years half assedly making it actually work for more than the demo. eventually it actually worked pretty good and we released it to way after all the excitement was dead and it totally flopped and we sold basically 0 of them lol

this is why I've stopped doing prototypes for features: everyone gets excited then it gets stuck in the backlog for 12 months and by the time we do it nobody cares anymore

also no joke there is a massive feature overhaul that we agreed and I implemented five and a half years ago that we have still not deployed because a downstream system is so poo poo that they've only just managed to get their side up to date to handle the extended data model

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



mystes posted:

was this at the same place as the office plugin thing?

nah this was the current place, i don't think the last place ever really... went to any conventions...

i've talked about it plenty before but it was more or less a pretend hobby company for the rich failson CEO to feel like he was actually doing something instead of just Being Rich Since Birth and boy did it operate in some bizarre ways as a result

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

this is why I've stopped doing prototypes for features: everyone gets excited then it gets stuck in the backlog for 12 months and by the time we do it nobody cares anymore

also no joke there is a massive feature overhaul that we agreed and I implemented five and a half years ago that we have still not deployed because a downstream system is so poo poo that they've only just managed to get their side up to date to handle the extended data model

we have a bug on a $2500 speaker system that customers have been calling to complain about since september 2019, and it’s been fixed since october 2019, but i literally haven’t been able to get my boss to approve the ~2 weeks of testing resources needed to release the fix to customers. lol

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



Powerful Two-Hander posted:

this is why I've stopped doing prototypes for features: everyone gets excited then it gets stuck in the backlog for 12 months and by the time we do it nobody cares anymore

lol here if you make a prototype, by the time you're done showing it to the team internally for the first time they've already somehow sold it as a fully-functional turnkey solution to 20 different companies

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



fart simpson posted:

we have a bug on a $2500 speaker system that customers have been calling to complain about since september 2019, and it’s been fixed since october 2019, but i literally haven’t been able to get my boss to approve the ~2 weeks of testing resources needed to release the fix to customers. lol

lmao

have you ever had to actually have a thing recalled that you worked on? i guess that probably doesn't really happen all that much with speakers unless like, they start exploding

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Shame Boy posted:

lmao

have you ever had to actually have a thing recalled that you worked on? i guess that probably doesn't really happen all that much with speakers unless like, they start exploding

not me but one of my coworkers worked on a speaker that had a few battery fires yeah

also ive worked on stuff that we had to stop sales on for various reasons (we kicked the can on upcoming compliance reasons or we got sued for violating gpl crap)

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hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

fart simpson posted:

we have a bug on a $2500 speaker system that customers have been calling to complain about since september 2019, and it’s been fixed since october 2019, but i literally haven’t been able to get my boss to approve the ~2 weeks of testing resources needed to release the fix to customers. lol

the biggest risk to software enabled branded audio :laugh:

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